True Love and Obsession - when no-one has the answer

[warriorprincess]

I am amazed by all this. Last night, procrastinating, I pick up what must be my 20 year-old copy of "The Psychology of Self Love", because instead of studying I am plagued with trying to determine whether I have an incurable mental illness...the illness of loving my husband of nearly 16 years, who I love maturely, who loves me maturely and being stuck on a fantasy of a man I met on an adult dating site who lives in the U.K. (I live in Australia). I know that it is natural in life to suffer, yet I see so many people that don't suffer in this way, and lately I have turned to Barbara Rose, Ph.D., a spiritual author who has seen pain in her life, to make sense of my suffering. The rejection of me by the man who I obsessed about, sooned turned me into a promiscuous hypomaniac whore, in front of my husband and badly damaged my self-esteem. Finally I got an email out of him (through a friend contacting him on my behalf) and then went into severe depression, yet I never even, met, telephone chatted or cammed with this guy, so if anyone can attest to the power of online communications and relationships I can. Yet, despite all this, I fantasise about him and think about him all the time, to the detriment of the rest of my life.

I can see another objectivist saying to me, well too bad, you have the mature love, yet it is no longer consummated or can no longer be realised physically - tough titties, just go on with it or leave him and find the love I deserve. Yeah right, as if love was just a matter of turning off the power cord on my marriage and then going down to the hardware store and finding a better machine, what utter rubbish and nonsense - as Albert Ellis would say, "The Martians would die laughing!" Then I read about Nathaniel Branden having an affair with Ayn Rand, then having other wives and now leaving his latest wife for a younger woman. I think OMG and I think I have problems!!! Perhaps I should just have the ECT that was recommended to me last year by my shrink and have my head zapped good and be done with it, though I have just read in Scientific American "Mind" (and I am supposed to be studying Neuroanatomy, among other things) that depression now appears to emanate from activity in area 25 of the cortex, so if I could wait until they realise they should only be able to have area 25 jolted, that would be heaps better.

But, why is is that all these lauded people do weird things, even weirder than I have done?

Albert Ellis - seemed to be a bit of a sex maniac in spite of telling everyone that they shouldn't be miserable about anything

M. Scott Peck - now this really takes the cake and if he sues me for defamation, I will get the American Psychiatric Society to declare him unfit if someone hasn't already - stated in "The Road Less Travelled" that if he saw a need for him to have sex with a patient then he would - Sweet Lord to the men in white coats for that one!

and Now Mr Branden - having an extra-marital with Ayn Rand and then a string of other marriages, hardly healthy stuff, is it?

But I can find no solace anywhere, it is if my dilemma is existential as it is irrational and neurotic. I cannot help how attracted I am to this man, how thwarted I felt that I scared him off and he never wished to have anything more to do with me and thus I cannot get to know him better and posssibly have developed a more rational view of him. Yet it had to happen to me, little old "G", who had resigned herself to the reality of her marriage (sexually nothing and hubby only being interested in work and his hobby, not home improvement, kids, etc) and the fact that I had landed a wonderful man quite nicely before she overheard a dinner-party conversation about finding new love online and and then found this gorgeous man on an international adult site (yes I am not stupid, I found where he worked and did a bit of a background check on him out even though that can be considered stalking as he expressed no affection for me)...it is something about capturing what we can't have that is the core of human suffering....if we can't capture one thing (material success, whatever) then I guess we look for a substitute and yes none of us is altruistic....if we can't have one type of success we try to get it or sublimate it another way.

But I wonder why I had to suffer the humiliation and indignity of a man who didn't even want to understand what motivated me to feel such intensity for him, when I tried to deal with it all myself and even sought forgiveness and understanding.. why the painful reality of being told by email among other things that "he had no feelings for me, never have and never will....... and to forget any notion of having anything to to do with him because he was never interested and never will be....) Yet he can merrily go-on and I guess if he is a decent guy he has either truthfully remarried (as he also told me in this painful email last year and the UK website I found him on is just a coincidence as his entry while showing his correct age is out of date) or he is happily having sex with any woman he can find, will stumble on a woman with a bit more substance and integrity sooner or later and eventually remarry!

So I am stuffed but I decided to join this site as nobody is perfect, not me, not hubby, not Mr Branden, Not Miss Rand and no-one else....we just do the best we can with what is on our plate?

BUT LIFE IS NOT FAIR!!!!!!!!! YET NOT ONCE HAVE I HEARD THIS MENTIONED IN ANY OF DR BRANDEN'S BOOKS. THE ONLY PSYCHIATRIST WHO ADMITS LIFE IS NOT FAIR IS DR ANDREW STANWAY OF THE U.K., IN HIS BOOK ABOUT FINDING REALISTIC SOLUTIONS TO LIVE, CALLED "INTIMATE SOLUTIONS" where he states that even if you are not having intercourse, but are exchaning other intimacies like kissing and cuddling (which we do) it is still having "sex", which my husband is quite happy with?

Otherwise, if we seek perfection in relationships, we will ALWAYS be disappointed and look to get a new model, just as Dr Branden seems to do from time-to-time. Yet there are men on here who have been married to only one partner and profess to be a disciple of his (objectivist) thinking and that of his associates?

I just don't get it!!!!!!!!!!!

Edited November 12, 2006 by warriorprincess

[gary williams]

First of all, my cat is named Xena. And therefore I am fond of Warrior Princessessesssessesssessessess!

Now. Who gives a shit what Nathanial Branden thinks?

Who gives a shit what Albert Ellis thinks?

Who gives a shit what M. Scott Peck thinks?

Who gives a shit about what is fair?

What the Bloody Hell do you think?

gw

[warriorprincess]

First of all, my cat is named Xena. And therefore I am fond of Warrior Princessessesssessesssessessess!

Now. Who gives a shit what Nathanial Branden thinks?

Who gives a shit what Albert Ellis thinks?

Who gives a shit what M. Scott Peck thinks?

Who gives a shit about what is fair?

What the Bloody Hell do you think?

gw

Anyone who tries to be scientific about human behaviour is deluded....there are hidden agendas in all that we do and pay-offs, none of it can be found to be logic proof and the proof is that these people had deep flaws in their writings and personal life....but I dunno, people hold them up as paragons of thought

Now I discover Barbara Rose who I trusted has her site linked to a bloody psychic.....I mean you can't trust anyone to give you the truth, which I suppose why people flit from one though to another, but you are not here to discuss this, you are all here to squabble about objectivist politics, so I'll turn the light off on this one.

Yes, thanks for the Xena mention, although that isn't quite the reason I pick that name...and cats have grown on me over the years, but that is another story all connected with Mr UK of course!

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

WP,

You sound very bitter. You are right. Life isn't fair.

Richard Pryor used to say, "Life's a bitch." His eyes would get big and he would say, "And then you die."

(btw - One small correction. NB didn't write The Psychology of Self Love. The correct title is The Psychology of Self-Esteem. Also, I met him for the first time recently and he is a wonderful person.)

I looked up Barbara Rose. She looks sincere, but she offers spiritual salve for those who suffer without having any doubts. You hand your faith over to God and the rest gets better. God knows I do not like to measure pain, but that kind of suffering seems to be easier to deal with.

One who doubts must find his center of balance the hard way, and only then start dealing with the pain. If not, you find yourself always slipping back into the misery regardless how good it gets. At least, that was what happened with me.

I don't know what to tell you, WP. I know what I did to get over years of hard drug addiction and heartache--and not trusting anyone and being so disgusted by the hypocrisy I saw in people that I wanted to scream and spit bile.

I stopped looking out at others and started looking in at myself. I decided that if I wanted a better world, I had to start by making myself fit for it.

I also decided that I no longer knew what I wanted out of life, but I was certain of what I didn't want anymore. I knew that well.

So I started there.

May your find some peace of mind. It's a long haul.

Michael

[Chris Grieb]

Michael; Good for you! The only person we can change is the man in the mirror. Credit to Michael Jackson.

[Mikee]

Whoa! That really was a rant.

Whoever SAID life was fair? What do you mean by fair anyway? You always get what you want? Random strangers HAVE to pay close attention when you get all wacko on them?

I recommend finding a Karate guy to teach you how to break wood with your fists. Then buy a wood stove.

[Kat]

Dear Tabby:

I have been married a long time to the man I love and who loves me. We have no sex life and he is more interested in work than his home life. I looked online at a singles site and found a hottie thousands of miles away. I threw myself at him and was rejected. Now I feel like shit. Why is life so unfair?

Wanna Play

Gentle Reader:

Rather than screaming that life is unfair because nobody is perfect and everyone messes up their sex life, take a personal inventory. Other people's screw-ups, no matter what their position, doesn't excuse your screw-ups. You say you have been married for nearly 16 years and it is based on mature love. Do you mean this in the way Nathaniel Branden speaks of... love is for grown-ups... or have you become just an old married couple who have become too comfortable with each other but totally lost the passion? A very good book to read is The Psychology of Romantic Love. In it Nathaniel Branden defines romantic love as:

Romantic love is a passionate spritual-emotional-sexual attachment between two people that reflects a high regard for each other's value. Romantic love entails mutual admiration.

Does this definition still fit the relationship with your husband? Probably not at this moment.

Obviously, the man you lust after is not interested in you and it is very likely that you destroyed your marriage by your foolish pursuit of another man. Don't blame your irrational behavior on the other man and his rejection of you. He is but a mere fantasy you have projected upon him. Men generally don't like being objectified anymore than women do. It sounds like you acted desparate and now regret it. Only you can control your own actions. Take a good hard look at your behavior, the motives and the results of your actions and learn from the ordeal you are going through. Forget Mr. Sexy, he doesn't want you. Rejection is hard on the psyche, but it is something we all go through. I have had more than my share of it myself. It takes time for the hurt to go away, but it does.

You are married and any rational man should reject your advances simply for the reason that you are not available. Either you are committed to making your marriage work or you are not. Are you just a bored little housewife looking for some naughty fun? At what price? If you cannot keep your wedding vow, get out. Nobody with any self-respect deserves a promiscuous hypomaniac whore as a wife. It would be better to confine your nymphomania to your husband or come to a mutually agreed upon solution. If you truly love your husband and want to stay married, you and your husband will need to work through some issues. You decide. Staying in the security of a marriage requires love, shared values, commitment, admiration, psychological visibility, communication and trust. What do you have left at this point? He probably feels that he cannot trust you now and by straying you have given him permission to cheat too. Either work it out or get out. Either you are in the marriage or you are not.

Good luck,

Tabby

[Ciro]

WP, I think we must learn to recognize and accept the fact that ultimately, we are alone in this world.

No one can keep us safe or give us what we want. We must accept the pain of being human, of being self aware, then we might realize that loneliness is not a burden after all, but has in it the seed of new life.

This is one of the message you should have gotten from Dr Branden's books.

Best to you

Ciro

[Barbara Branden]

WP: "Then I read about Nathaniel Branden having an affair with Ayn Rand, then having other wives and now leaving his latest wife for a younger woman."

Nathaniel Branden does not require my defense, but I will point out that you are factually mistaken. His first marriage -- to me -- was never a happy one, and should have ended long before it did. His second wife died. And he did not leave his last wife for a younger woman.

I agree with the comments of both Kat and Ciro. And I'd like to add that you seem to be saying that people owe it to you to solve your problems -- as if Barbara Rose betrayed you personally by linking to a psychic, Nathaniel Branden betrayed you by having more than one wife, Albert Ellis betrayed you by being "a bit of a sex maniac." You expect people to be sympathetic to the fact that you have problems; perhaps you might extend to others the sympathy and understanding you expect. If "life isn't fair" to you, perhaps it isn't fair to them, too.

You say that "you can't trust anyone to give you the truth." No, you can't. You can trust a great many people to write and say what they believe to be the truth, but only you can decide if they are right or wrong. Truth isn't something handed to one on a silver platter. Can you be trusted "to give us the truth?" Should we denounce you and feel personally betrayed if you make mistakes in your words and in your life?

You wrote: "you are not here to discuss this, you are all here to squabble about objectivist politics." Apparently we, like Barbara Rose, Nathaniel Branden, and Albert Ellis, etc., are failing you because we are interested in discussing politics, because we consider it of life-and-death importance -- while you require that we drop such a nonsensical subject and focus instead on how unfairly life has treated you.

You wrote: "But I wonder why I had to suffer the humiliation and indignity of a man who didn't even want to understand what motivated me to feel such intensity for him." It isn't an indignity, it isn't a humiliation, it's a simple fact of life that one's love is not always returned. But again, apparently he had a debt to you, just as everyone else does; in his case, he owed it to you to want to understand why you loved him.

Is there anyone in your life -- -- including the writers of the books you read -- who is not obligated to provide you with what you want?

Barbara

[gary williams]

Warrior Princess, (Great Name)

Howdy! (Translated into Australian......G'Day Mate!)

People suck don't they?!?!

They'll treat you like shit, run over you, piss on you....sell you Tupperware.

Don't let the bastards get you down! Fuck'em!

No, people do not owe you anything. But the truth would be nice every once in a while, wouldn't it? Of course they ain't about to do that are they? Cocksuckers!

So, what do people like you and me do?

Well, I personally like to revel in the fact that I am the most important thing in the universe. Or at least the Northern Hemisphere! ( Make you a deal, I'll take the Northern Hemisphere and YOU take the Southern! Of course that means I'll be stuck with France!)

I hate giving advice. I do. It always ends up biting me in the ass.

But if I were to do so...Hypothetically.........I might say something like this........

Yer not happy. You should be.

Find what is making you unhappy and get rid of it.

Is it your husband? Is it Mr. UK?

You are the only thing in the universe that matters. (Tell that to yourself everyday)

Your happiness takes precident over everything else. (Tell that to yourself everyday)

Life is grand! (Tell that to yourself everyday)

You are worthy of happiness. (Tell that to yourself everyday)

You are worthy!

There are billions of men on this planet. Be pickey!

Make them come to you. You are worth it! (Tell yourself that everyday)

BTW.... Yeah, I know about falling for someone over the internet. It does happen.

Of course jerks are everywhere. It does not matter what medium you use. You will run into assholes.

Fuck the bloody bastards! They can kiss our asses!!!!

gw

[Rodney]

What Barbara said.

[Victor Pross]

WP,

You should really go back and read again The Psychology of Self-Esteem—but for the first time. Did you really read this book-- only to take nothing from it whatsoever?

Edited November 13, 2006 by Victor Pross

[gary williams]

Okie Dokie Princess....

Here's the deal.

You got a husband who has you, yet does not want you.

You got a fantasy dude who could have you but does not want you.

Well, fuck them!

Let them make their stupid decisions!

Then make your own!

Are you worth having?

Hell yes you are!

So why waste your time on what "they" want!

My Australian friend, YOU are your standard! Not them!

Live life based on reality.

Live life based on truth.

Live life based on you as the center. Do it babe. It is a trip!

Make yourself the center of the universe and base everyone and everything on the standard of YOU!

Trust me. If you are honest with yourself and you live your life with that same honesty, you will be happy!

Fuck fair.

Fuck Mr. Wonderful.

Fuck what other people think.

Do it.

Live.

Be happy.

Be you.

Only you can do it.

Walk outside now and scream!!!!

"I........am..........wonderful!!!!!!!!!!"

It will be true.

gw

[Rich Engle]

Well, the upside is that you have forum friends that actually take it seriously... that's good!

I'm not sure if reading Nathaniel's or anyone else's work is what needs done now. I can tell you that in the position you describe, NB's TPOSE is not maybe the best to read, there's others that might touch you more.

Maybe, just maybe, it was simply a bad match. Close, but not close enough. I say that because I hear a remarkably similar amount of language that I heard from my ex-wife. She's someone I respect, she respects me. But, try and try we did, and there were marvelous intersects, the bottom line is it was just a bad match. Either one of us could've pulled the trigger, in the end she did.

It's a very painful thing. But maybe more painful is letting status quo remain, it can be a pain-giver, par to none.

We can't make more of a person than they are. We can wish, but, does that do them any service?

After what I've been through (which went about 30 years), I'm kind of pragmatic about these things. And, smiling because I finally found what is right for me.

I used to think like most people do, you know, the whole "you have to work on relationships" thing. Now, generally, I consider that for the most part to be absolute B.S. In my eyes, one purpose of an adult romantic relationship is to create energy.

One thing for sure, if either or both view the other as a "project," you're talking about a bad match.

I no longer believe work is involved. Do we work in relationships? Yes, but it feels liberating and right, it doesn't feel like a goddamn funeral.

I think there is a mythos about relationships that is propagated by the miserable. I don't buy it anymore.

You have to decide, warrior-girl.

best,

rde

[John Dailey]

WP:

~ FWIW, a famous O'ist commented approvingly on AA's prayer re the lines "...the serenity to accept the things we cannot change..."--- Some 'wants' can feel like 'needs,' indeed to a point of compulsions that seem unchangeable.

~ I'm finally, after mucho prodding from my wife and kid, getting my own 'mobile/cellular' phone. I understand that one can d-l varied favorite music pieces to signal it's 'ringing.' --- I've decided that the one I'll purposely d-l, as a 'reminder' to me re *my* probs, is the one that Dr. House (the TV doc who acts like Henry Cameron) finds to sum up his 'philosophy-of-life': Rolling Stones' Mick Jagger's noted oldie:

You CAN'T - ALways GET - WHAT you WAa-a-nt

...

But if you try sometimes

you just might find

You get what you need.

LLAP

J:D

P.S: note the distinction 'tween 'want' and 'need.'

Edited December 28, 2006 by John Dailey

[Danneskjold]

Next time you want the truth and honesty don't go to someone who is trying to sell you something. Although capitalism is great and those people are the ones that produce, you have to take everything with a grain of salt on the market.

[Steve Gagne]

We all live our lives. We also all tell ourselves and others stories of our lives, trying to rationalize our experiences, fair and unfair. But not at the same time. (Thank you for that lesson Jean-Paul.)

In another context, I told this true story:

Back when I first started using air travel in the '60's & '70's, I found that there was great comfort in anonymity. Amongst the people I met there was great goodwill; we all quickly became the best of friends, business partners, and lovers, finding fulfillment of all our dreams in one another. But it wasn't real. It was all just storytelling, and didn't last any longer than the particular flight that we shared.

Fast forward 25-30 years into the future (about 10 years ago, during my hispanophile period) when I became The Last Person On Earth to Finally Go Online. I started joining chat rooms, bbses, starting to talk to people, thinking I was making friends with real people. (Of course they knew better but I did not.)

At one point I became interested in this woman who I thought was from Argentina. Our conversations (all in Spanish) went from days to weeks to months; it turned into a torrid cyber-romance. I sent her my pictures, and when I became convinced that my marriage was so stale as to be beyond saving, I told her I wanted to leave my wife for her, and asked for her pictures as well. Well, you can imagine my surprise when I received pictures of, not a dark-eyed mature Argentinian beauty, but a fat, nekkid, pimply-faced 15 year-old mexican boy. God I almost puked.

The point of this diatribe is, that the "people" you meet online aren't necessarily real.

It's a real heartbreak, but it might be for an unreal person. Don't sustain any unreal hopes -- it will hurt you in the long run -- and get on with setting your life aright. Good luck.

yt

steve