ThatGuy Posted November 1, 2021 Share Posted November 1, 2021 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThatGuy Posted November 1, 2021 Share Posted November 1, 2021 6 minutes ago, anthony said: For those who don't even need them. ARI's proportions are entirely wrong. As Rand put it, "inverted moral priorities". 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dglgmut Posted November 1, 2021 Share Posted November 1, 2021 22 hours ago, Mark said: ... the vaccinators don’t have coherent arguments anymore; they just have power. You can tell this from the lazy and extremely stupid things that they say in the press all the time: This is a pandemic of the unvaccinated, they explain, so we have to vaccinate everyone to reduce spread, but breakthrough infections don’t matter, since the primary purpose of vaccination is to limit severe disease, which is why we have to vaccinate children, who are not at risk of severe disease, in order to reduce spread. I have been thinking about this lately: how intelligent people can make these 'lazy and stupid' claims/arguments. Brainwashing does not discriminate based on intelligence; it is an emotional thing. It is very apparent right now that just because a person is intelligent does not mean they have any more ability to see through bullshit when there are animal/human forces pulling them in one direction or another. I was wondering how could it be measured, the effect of noise on the discourse--the fact that the media is so biased, and the result, that a large segment of the public believe the same narrative. Someone having received a degree from a top school does not make them immune to public opinion (although someone having observable accomplishments in their field likely helps a great deal). In fact school seems to only encourage one to derive their self-worth from external validation. And one thing about the noise that I find interesting: You hear the argument over and over again, that people should be getting their information from experts, trusting their doctors, etc. Nikki Minaj said people should be able to make their own medical decisions, and the response was a chorus of, "People should not get their medical advice from Nikki Minaj." So when it comes to the noise, the argument is that only the educated should have a voice... unless you are on the right side of the discourse. Because nobody is silencing the noise on the other side. If the debate is between experts on either side, then one side clearly has the home field advantage. That's what it seems like to me--the public have become the fans trying to distract the basket player at the free-throw line. It's amazing what an effect it has. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dglgmut Posted November 2, 2021 Share Posted November 2, 2021 Farmers, tradespeople, anyone who can produce/maintain necessities... these people are going to be the key to this international power game. They say 80% of production is done by 20% of the population (the 80-20 rule). I'd be willing to bet that the average politics of the 20% are not an accurate reflection of the other 80%'s. In a democracy it's one man-one vote. But the polls are not the only place people can influence national policy. These thoughts are coming after a few weeks of observing a social media group in my area for non-discriminating businesses. The question I had was, which businesses/people are a significant loss to the other side? People selling home-made jewellery, in-home chef services, offering business consultations... these things are better than nothing, but they're really the types of jobs created to spread money out from the people doing the serious work. Going forward, aside from being less politically passive, establishing real social leverage should be the focus of people cooperatively advancing rational values--finding ways to make the economy more grounded, not in a Dictatorship of the Proletariat way, but in a leaders should be chosen by people who can actually do stuff kinda way. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Posted November 2, 2021 Share Posted November 2, 2021 This is based on a comment of October 30th by Anonymous (have you noticed how that guy gets around, he’s all over everywhere) on Meryl Nass’s blog, greatly abridged and copy edited from the original: Per Biden’s [illegal] edict, Americans who work at a company that employs more than 100 people must choose between getting vaccinated and getting fired. That includes hospital workers who risked their lives treating COVID-19 patients. But Biden is *not* mandating vaccines for the 59 million Americans on welfare. Thus he would force vaccines on the Americans who supply most of the tax revenue financing America’s welfare system while the beneficiaries of that system are exempt. It’s obvious why. Leftist want the welfare class to grow and the middle and working classes to shrink. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Posted November 2, 2021 Author Share Posted November 2, 2021 3 hours ago, Mark said: Leftist want the welfare class to grow and the middle and working classes to shrink. I would not want the “objectivist class" to shrink. I hope all those even moderately interested, get the vaccine. Peter Confirmed U.S.A. cases of coronavirus 46.058.641 / deaths 746,688. Staggering COVID-19 Statistic from Augusta U. and University of Georgia medical partnership: 98% to 99% of Americans Dying are Unvaccinated. “Swing low, (swing low) sweet chariot, comin’ for to carry me home . . .“ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Posted November 2, 2021 Author Share Posted November 2, 2021 (edited) I would not want the “objectivist class" to shrink. I hope all those even moderately interested, get the vaccine. Peter Confirmed U.S.A. cases of coronavirus 46.058.641 / deaths 746,688. Staggering COVID-19 Statistic from Augusta U. and University of Georgia medical partnership: 98% to 99% of Americans Dying are Unvaccinated. “Swing low, (swing low) sweet chariot, comin’ for to carry me home . . .“ Edited November 2, 2021 by Peter sorry for the duplicate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stuart Kelly Posted November 2, 2021 Share Posted November 2, 2021 6 hours ago, Dglgmut said: I have been thinking about this lately: how intelligent people can make these 'lazy and stupid' claims/arguments. Brainwashing does not discriminate based on intelligence; it is an emotional thing. D, It's a bitch when you finally see it, ain't it? But now the world will start making enough sense, you can help for real. Start with this. Lear persuasion. If you don't, the bad guys will be happy. They know persuasion, they study and refine it, and don't want you to know it. This fact does not take away from reason, but it also does not allow reason to occupy its place. And that leads to the question, how does reason fit into all this? That's a long discussion for another time. But reason fits and fits well. Here's the short version of why things are this way. The human brain evolved in a modular fashion over thousands of years and throughout many different environments and situations. When new things evolved in the brain, the old things did not disappear. The new simply covered them up or shoved them out of the way, but they all stuck around. And now? Sometimes the new and the old fight with each other. That could not be otherwise since the different modules evolved to obtain and/or preserve different values. This topic is too long to go into right now, but I'm glad you are seeing this. Nothing but certainty in trusting your own eyes and your own mind await you. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Posted November 2, 2021 Share Posted November 2, 2021 In America so far, over 150K have been killed by the vaccines. The FDA and CDC fudge the numbers by assuming the VAERS URF (under-reporting factor) is 1 when ... (1) Per interviews with nurses that I have provided on this thread it is much greater than 1, much as in 10 or 100 times. In case you missed it:Nurses at Minnesota Town Hall Meeting Deborah Conrad, physician’s assistant (2) Failure to do autopsies on deaths that should have been suspicious:Where are the autopsies? by Jane Orient, M.D. (many years ago a darling of ARI, no longer) German Chief Pathologist Sounds Alarm on Fatal Covid Vaccine Injuries (3) Doctors who dare to speak out about vaccine dangers are demonized by government-beholden shills. Early treatment can get Americans to “near zero Covid.” Therapeutic Nihilism Given that very safe and effective treatments exist, there is no point in any vaccine, even a safe and effective one. What you risk with these vaccines is horrible:Vaccine Horrors A good place to start researching the subject: The Spartacus Letter A good blog for on-going news:Dr. Meryl Nass There’s been a massive propaganda campaign around covid vaccination. I’ll provide links about it tomorrow evening. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThatGuy Posted November 2, 2021 Share Posted November 2, 2021 "71 out of 75 Districts in Uttar Pradesh, India – Its Most Populated State – Reported No Covid-19 Cases in 24 Hours After Implementing Ivermectin Protocol" UPDATE: 71 out of 75 Districts in Uttar Pradesh, India - Its Most Populated State - Reported No Covid-19 Cases in 24 Hours After Implementing Ivermectin Protocol WWW.THEGATEWAYPUNDIT.COM The Gateway Pundit previously reported that COVID cases plummeted in India thanks to new rules that promote Ivermectin and... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellen Stuttle Posted November 2, 2021 Share Posted November 2, 2021 12 hours ago, Peter said: I hope all those even moderately interested, get the vaccine. How disappointing. I did hope, the last few days, that some light had penetrated. Ellen 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dglgmut Posted November 2, 2021 Share Posted November 2, 2021 14 hours ago, Mark said: (3) Doctors who dare to speak out about vaccine dangers are demonized by government-beholden shills. This is something about the noise I had not articulated but was somewhere in the back of my mind. This is probably the biggest issue... It's not just one side can demoralize the other without any acknowledgement of what they're doing, or their hypocrisy. It's not just that uneducated opinions are allowed, and even amplified on one side of the discourse, while they are being shut down on the other side for the express reason of the source being uneducated. It's that experts on the wrong side of the discourse are getting taken to task regularly by uneducated idiots. They don't just have to deal with distractions in making their point to other experts, they are being forced to argue with people who can't even comprehend what they are saying with their professional reputation on the line. There is never a debate between equals, exploring the reality of the problem, because one side has an army of minions to occupy their opponents' time. Dr. Byram Bridle, for example, had a website dedicated to smearing him under a domain with his name--it was the top Google result for the several months that it existed. He was then forced to address some web-designers uninformed criticisms of his statements... This imbalance has to overflow into the arena of expert discussion as well, because of the sense of security that comes with taking the popular stance, or the insecurity that comes with taking the unpopular one. This has to be the biggest issue right now, when it comes to these esoteric problems the public is being told to care about without any knowledge or reference points what-so-ever. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Posted November 2, 2021 Share Posted November 2, 2021 15 hours ago, Mark said: There’s been a massive propaganda campaign around covid vaccination. I’ll provide links about it tomorrow evening. A Global Propaganda Operation Prof. Piers Robinson, 4 August 2021 A Propaganda Masterpiece Prof. Mark Crispin Miller, 1 July 2021 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
william.scherk Posted November 3, 2021 Share Posted November 3, 2021 (edited) On 6/14/2021 at 12:48 PM, william.scherk said: On 6/13/2021 at 9:30 PM, Peter said: I read that China and Russia are having a resurgence of Covid. There seems to be a fair amount of vaccine "hesitancy" in Russia, according to a New York Times article: Covid News: Moscow Orders Shutdown as Russia Battles New Wave of Cases Notable in a July Nature article was the third paragraph: Quote Russia’s COVID-19 vaccine, Sputnik, has been the subject of fascination and controversy since the Russian government authorized its use last year, before early-stage trial results were even published. Evidence from Russia and many other countries now suggests it is safe and effective — but questions remain about the quality of surveillance for possible rare side effects. Sputnik V — also known as Gam-COVID-Vac — was the first COVID-19 vaccine to be registered for use in any nation, and it has since been approved in 67 countries, including Brazil, Hungary, India and the Philippines. But the vaccine — and its one-dose sibling Sputnik Light — has yet to receive approval for emergency use from the European Medicines Agency (EMA) or the World Health Organization (WHO). Approval by the WHO is crucial for widespread distribution through the COVID-19 Vaccines Global Access (COVAX) initiative, which is providing doses for lower-income nations. Developed by scientists at the Gamaleya National Research Center of Epidemiology and Microbiology in Moscow, the vaccine was authorized for use by the Russian Ministry of Health on 11 August 2020, more than a month before phase I and II trial results were published, and before the phase III trial had even begun. This week President Puting beefed with the G-20 and WHO for lagging approvals. Also lagging is Sputnik-V take-up within Russia, according to the stats cited by David Axe, one of the daemons of the Daily Beast, who has an article up brimming with loaded language, the fiend. A couple of least-overwrought paragraphs from Russia’s Petty Race With the West Ends in Dire COVID Crisis Quote Globally, authorities counted around 3 million new coronavirus infections last week—down from 4.6 million at the peak of the surge in early September. Deaths are declining, too. There were 49,000 COVID deaths last week, down from 69,000 six weeks ago. In Russia, however, the trends are heading in the opposite direction, based on even the most conservative official figures. On Wednesday, the country of 146 million people set all-time official records for daily cases (around 36,000) and deaths (nearly 1,100). One take-away number from daemons and not is 33%, the level of fully-vaccinated Russians at present. Those people are barred from travel into most of Europe and the USA, giving way to unvaccinated Russians traveling to the West for WHO/USA/EU-approved 'jabs.' If you strip away the emotive frills and clangs in a Guardian article, a few more facts can be gleaned. Also of interest to resident immunologics experts is the July 2021 Nature 'briefing' article, which tends to frame up an 'arms race' between the West and Russia: Mounting evidence suggests Sputnik COVID vaccine is safe and effective What kind of vaccine (or pseudo-vaccine or inoculant or experimental gene-therapy murder-jab) is Sputnik-V / Gam-COVID-Vac? Quote Sputnik V is an adenovirus vaccine, which means that it uses an engineered adenovirus — a family of viruses that generally cause only mild illness — as a delivery mechanism for inserting the genetic code for the SARS-CoV-2 spike protein into human cells. It is similar to the Oxford–AstraZeneca and Johnson & Johnson vaccines. But instead of using one engineered adenovirus, as those two vaccines do, Sputnik V uses different adenoviruses, called rAd26 and rAd5, for the first and second doses, respectively. Dmitry Kulish, a biotechnology researcher at the Skolkovo Institute of Science and Technology in Moscow, who is not involved in the development of Sputnik V, says the scientific reasoning would have been to increase efficacy. The two adenoviruses have slightly different methods of introducing their genetic material into a host cell, he says, which would theoretically improve the success rate of getting the viral genetic material where it needs to go. The two preliminary studies from the vaccine developers, published in September 20202, involved 76 healthy adults who received the two doses with different viral vectors three weeks apart. All participants produced antibodies to the SARS-CoV-2 spike protein, and adverse events reported were mainly mild pain at the injection site, fever, headache, fatigue and muscle aches — adverse events typical of other SARS-CoV-2 vaccines. The "Health Ranger" Mike Adams takes a different tack on challenges faced ... MONTERS, ZOMBIES & MUTANTS! The Health Ranger Report: Situation Update, Nov 2, 2021 - Monsters, Zombies and Mutants: HORRIFYING new research reveals how vaccines suppress DNA repair mechanism in your cells HEALTHRANGERREPORT.COM 0:00 Horrifying Research 18:55 Science Direct 39:33 COVID Study For more updates, visit: NaturalNews videos would not be possible without you, as always we remain passionately dedicated to our mission of... Edited November 3, 2021 by william.scherk Finicks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellen Stuttle Posted November 3, 2021 Share Posted November 3, 2021 19 hours ago, Mark said: In America so far, over 150K have been killed by the vaccines. The FDA and CDC fudge the numbers by assuming the VAERS URF (under-reporting factor) is 1 when ... Mark, This looks like another article worth noting: Spontaneous Abortions and Policies on COVID-19 mRNA Vaccine Use During Pregnancy by Aleisha R. Brock1, Simon Thornley2 Quote Abstract The use of mRNA vaccines in pregnancy is now generally considered safe for protection against COVID-19 in countries such as New Zealand, USA, and Australia. However, the influential CDC-sponsored article by Shimabukuro et al. (2021) used to support this idea, on closer inspection, provides little assurance, particularly for those exposed in early pregnancy. The study presents falsely reassuring statistics related to the risk of spontaneous abortion in early pregnancy, since the majority of women in the calculation were exposed to the mRNA product after the outcome period was defined (20 weeks’ gestation). In this article, we draw attention to these errors and recalculate the risk of this outcome based on the cohort that was exposed to the vaccine before 20 weeks’ gestation. Our re-analysis indicates a cumulative incidence of spontaneous abortion 7 to 8 times higher than the original authors’ results (p < 0.001) and the typical average for pregnancy loss during this time period. In light of these findings, key policy decisions have been made using unreliable and questionable data. We conclude that the claims made using these data on the safety of exposure of women in early pregnancy to mRNA-based vaccines to prevent COVID-19 are unwarranted and recommend that those policy decisions be revisited. Ellen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Posted November 3, 2021 Author Share Posted November 3, 2021 10 hours ago, Ellen Stuttle said: How disappointing. I did hope, the last few days, that some light had penetrated. Ellen Get the news or the alt news? Science or pseudoscience? What are DOCTORS telling you Ellen? What is wrong with you? I quote a real site with statistics about Covid deaths and the unvaccinated and you . . . well unfortunately, it’s not just you. Peter Leonard Peikoff said in Understanding Objectivism, pp. 59-60: The process of removing the blinders from your eyes and taking your concept back to its concretes, I call reduction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Posted November 3, 2021 Author Share Posted November 3, 2021 4 hours ago, william.scherk said: What kind of vaccine (or pseudo-vaccine or inoculant or experimental gene-therapy murder-jab) is Sputnik-V / Gam-COVID-Vac? I think the Russian "average citizen who seem to cheer for Putin" will 'support' a limited . . . or more deaths . . . to give evidence that Putin is a great leader . . . or knows most about he is doing to remain in power . . . OOORRR Putin is a megalomaniac who will kill or murder millions to stay in power. Who comes to mind? Stalin? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jules Troy Posted November 3, 2021 Share Posted November 3, 2021 2 hours ago, Peter said: Get the news or the alt news? Science or pseudoscience? What are DOCTORS telling you Ellen? What is wrong with you? I quote a real site with statistics about Covid deaths and the unvaccinated and you . . . well unfortunately, it’s not just you. Peter Leonard Peikoff said in Understanding Objectivism, pp. 59-60: The process of removing the blinders from your eyes and taking your concept back to its concretes, I call reduction. She just misses Jon? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anthony Posted November 3, 2021 Share Posted November 3, 2021 11 hours ago, Peter said: Get the news or the alt news? Science or pseudoscience? What are DOCTORS telling you Ellen? Somewhat late in the day. The patient-doctor relationship was cut, from early, by powers the bureaucrat-scientists and governments and Pharma arrogated to themselves. Media-promoted mass panic and social media's suppression of open information, did the rest. Shoulda listened to THE DOCTORS. 87,500+ doctors. https://assets-global.website-files.com/606d3dece4ec3c3866cc798a/60a60266de9ddeb93a3dbfed_62 World Doctors Alliance 2021.pdf 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stuart Kelly Posted November 3, 2021 Share Posted November 3, 2021 This is happening today all over the world. Robert F. Kennedy Calls For A Worldwide Walkout RUMBLE.COM Robert F. Kennedy Calls For A Worldwide Walkout Nov. 3 is not turning out to be a very good day for the authoritarians. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stuart Kelly Posted November 3, 2021 Share Posted November 3, 2021 I heard a cute phrase earlier this morning. There's a new name for people preaching forced vaccinations, lockdowns, etc. Branch Covidians. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stuart Kelly Posted November 3, 2021 Share Posted November 3, 2021 Big Pharma and cronies are changing the definitions of vaccine-related words in the dictionary. The biggest change is that the definition of vaccines no longer includes immunity. And anti-vaxxers include opposition to government vaccine mandates. Now that the dictionary has changed, that makes it easier to change the laws, funding requirements, licensing regulations, and so on. All of this is happening in order to perpetrate one of the biggest scams in world history. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThatGuy Posted November 3, 2021 Share Posted November 3, 2021 On 11/1/2021 at 11:31 AM, ThatGuy said: After reading the Binswanger piece, it seems his accusation of vaxx refusal being arbitrary is based on "argument from authority"; basically, he just says "trust the science." He simply presents the claims of the CDC face-value, without looking further. And he seems to simply dismiss any claims about damage and deaths caused by the vaccine. (Let alone ignoring historical precedent of lies from the CDC, or the lies of the VA regarding the Tuskagee experiments, not to mention the political machinations that are connected to this.) And accepts the vaxx's as being necessary, despite the high survival rate, and how they do little to stop one getting Covid regardless (vaxxed/double-masked Jen Psaki, anyone?). He doesn't address other alternatives like therapeutics. He doesn't address the legal issues, how the drug companies have immunity from damages. Etc... It doesn't seem as if he made the case that the refusals are arbitrary, presenting no specific claims and addressing no specific evidence presented by the other side; not even a "weak man" argument. It's more like HIS claim about vaxx hesitancy is itself arbitrary. He checks no premises. But it is interesting that he used the term "arbitrary". There was a recent post here about his essay about anarchism being t"he arbitrary", as if this were his go-to response, his version of "handwavium". (Of course, there's also the possibility that he just doesn't want to side with the religious protests against this.) An example of the kind of thing ignored by Binswanger in his "arbitrary" dismissal of covid "vaccine" concerns as "arbitrary":Covid-19: Researcher blows the whistle on data integrity issues in Pfizer’s vaccine trial "Revelations of poor practices at a contract research company helping to carry out Pfizer’s pivotal covid-19 vaccine trial raise questions about data integrity and regulatory oversight." Quote In autumn 2020 Pfizer’s chairman and chief executive, Albert Bourla, released an open letter to the billions of people around the world who were investing their hopes in a safe and effective covid-19 vaccine to end the pandemic. “As I’ve said before, we are operating at the speed of science,” Bourla wrote, explaining to the public when they could expect a Pfizer vaccine to be authorised in the United States.1 But, for researchers who were testing Pfizer’s vaccine at several sites in Texas during that autumn, speed may have come at the cost of data integrity and patient safety. A regional director who was employed at the research organisation Ventavia Research Group has told The BMJ that the company falsified data, unblinded patients, employed inadequately trained vaccinators, and was slow to follow up on adverse events reported in Pfizer’s pivotal phase III trial. Staff who conducted quality control checks were overwhelmed by the volume of problems they were finding. After repeatedly notifying Ventavia of these problems, the regional director, Brook Jackson, emailed a complaint to the US Food and Drug Administration (FDA). Ventavia fired her later the same day. Jackson has provided The BMJ with dozens of internal company documents, photos, audio recordings, and emails. Covid-19: Researcher blows the whistle on data integrity issues in Pfizer’s vaccine trial WWW.BMJ.COM Revelations of poor practices at a contract research company helping to carry out Pfizer’s pivotal covid-19 vaccine trial raise questions about... Concerns over reports like this are far from arbitrary, Harry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellen Stuttle Posted November 3, 2021 Share Posted November 3, 2021 11 hours ago, Peter said: Get the news or the alt news? Science or pseudoscience? What are DOCTORS telling you Ellen? What is wrong with you? I quote a real site with statistics about Covid deaths and the unvaccinated and you . . . well unfortunately, it’s not just you. Peter Peter, I read and understand medical material which you wouldn’t begin to understand. (I started reading medical textbooks for fun when I was less than nine.) I already understood from a description of how the mRNA "jabs" work that they're "playing with fire," so to speak. As has been confirmed. You probably could understand some of the material Mark has linked to, however. Have you even looked at any of it? The "real" stats you quote are grossly inflated, as I have explained on this thread. (Note re Tony's point about there being many unreported mild cases. Agreed. Nevertheless, the official case figures include many cases which are actually flu or just a cold or even nothing at all except a false-positive PCR, and the official death figures include many cases which likewise aren’t Covid at all or are simply "with Covid," not "from Covid.") The "real" study you cited is junk. I've told you that my doctor was surprised (at my annual exam) that I hadn’t gotten "vaxxed" and I informed him of things he didn’t know. He'd been merely believing official medical sources which have been lying, lying, lying. He withdrew the recommendation that I "get the shot." Your doctor is either similarly misinformed or is going along with the herd despite knowing better. Not knowing your doctor, I couldn’t say which. In any case, doing what a doctor tells you simply because "Doctor says so" is not rational. One rationally does what a doctor says only if one has good reason to think that what the doctor says is sound advice. Doctors, even the best doctors, are not infallible, and many of them tend to be prone to herd dynamics fashion-following (observation from a lifetime of knowing doctors as family friends and acquaintances as well as in doctor-patient relationships). I very much hope that if a doctor recommends that you recommend a shot for your granddaughter that you say, NO! The 5-11 shots are going to outright kill or produce disability in some percentage of young children, as they have done in other age groups. And the long-term consequences are going to be horrendous. A medical catastrophe. Ellen 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellen Stuttle Posted November 3, 2021 Share Posted November 3, 2021 9 hours ago, Jules Troy said: She just misses Jon? What is that supposed to mean? Whatever, I am not amused, and, no, I do not miss Jon. I did like Jon quite a bit prior to his becoming rather a fanatic. By the time he was banned, I was glad to have him gone. Ellen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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