caroljane Posted December 13, 2018 Share Posted December 13, 2018 Since becoming president, Trump has accomplished the highest toll of gun deaths the United States has ever seen! Just an offshoot of the booming economy, you might say, but he is responsible for that too --with the bonus that most of those dead civilian losers asked for it, probably. Well done. I love unintended consequences , don't you? They are so-- original and challenging. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonathan Posted December 13, 2018 Share Posted December 13, 2018 Your brain is not functioning well today, dear. Maybe take a break from the outside world. You're too worked up with your hatred of Trump. Step away from it for a while. Cool off. Take some time to get a grip. J Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caroljane Posted December 13, 2018 Author Share Posted December 13, 2018 1 hour ago, Jonathan said: Your brain is not functioning well today, dear. Maybe take a break from the outside world. You're too worked up with your hatred of Trump. Step away from it for a while. Cool off. Take some time to get a grip. J Got me there, J. I have hardly any grip to get. Never could open JARS. But have taken a break from outside world, and have now been inside for two hours. Still trying to figure out if you approve of state-approved torture and murder of citizens without trial, etc. For any state whatsoever,since it is about broad moral principles we occasionally debate here, or at least used to in the past. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brant Gaede Posted December 14, 2018 Share Posted December 14, 2018 The State is torture and the torturer. One way is through socialistic economic policy policies that affect everyone. Torture is grossly immoral and evil. --Brant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stuart Kelly Posted December 14, 2018 Share Posted December 14, 2018 3 hours ago, caroljane said: Still trying to figure out if you approve of state-approved torture and murder of citizens without trial, etc. Carol, Using this logic, you apparently approve of state-approved torture and murder of women, gays, political enemies, people of the wrong religion, etc. That's what your man Khashoggi worked to implement in the world. Others who work to implement the same results--ones he use to work for--killed him. They killed him before he killed them. That's the long and short of it. And you want everyone to care. I don't. It's a Saudi issue, not a USA issue. And you apparently don't give a damn about the truly innocent female, gay, religious, etc. victims the Saudis (including with the participation of Khashoggi) wasted. Out of sight, out of mind, huh? From this angle, the bad guy's the victim. The innocent victims for real are merely stats and gossip, huh? Especially when the all consuming hatred issue is: Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caroljane Posted December 14, 2018 Author Share Posted December 14, 2018 2 hours ago, Brant Gaede said: The State is torture and the torturer. One way is through socialistic economic policy policies that affect everyone. Torture is grossly immoral and evil. --Brant The hyperbole virus has got you too Brant. It is , maybe,debatable that simply by existing, a State is a torturer. And socialistic state practices do affect everyone, But being able to afford pain medicine, because others as well as I pay taxes, is not a torturous effect, for example. Quite the reverse, trust me. And since there are states, none of them should be patted on the back by other states for deliberately and flagrantly torturing . Just. Should. Not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caroljane Posted December 14, 2018 Author Share Posted December 14, 2018 12 minutes ago, Michael Stuart Kelly said: Carol, Using this logic, you apparently approve of state-approved torture and murder of women, gays, political enemies, people of the wrong religion, etc. That's what your man Khashoggi worked to implement in the world. Others who work to implement the same results--ones he use to work for--killed him. They killed him before he killed them. That's the long and short of it. And you want everyone to care. I don't. It's a Saudi issue, not a USA issue. And you apparently don't give a damn about the truly innocent female, gay, religious, etc. victims the Saudis (including with the participation of Khashoggi) wasted. Out of sight, out of mind, huh? From this angle, the bad guy's the victim. The innocent victims for real are merely stats and gossip, huh? Especially when the all consuming hatred issue is: Michael Michael! What system of logic leads to the conclusion that disapproval of torture and murder in general and specifically , to whomever it happens, means approval of the torture of others ???? Not Ayn Rand's, surely. Not mine for sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stuart Kelly Posted December 14, 2018 Share Posted December 14, 2018 4 minutes ago, caroljane said: What system of logic leads to the conclusion that disapproval of torture and murder in general and specifically , to whomever it happens, means approval of the torture of others ???? Carol, It's when you care about the death of murderers/torturers and blank out their innocent victims--all in the service of a political agenda. I don't think you give two craps about the women, gays, etc., who are oppressed by Islamic states. You might give lip-service when called on it, but on your own, all those folks are a non-issue. My suggestion, if you want to get President Trump so badly, is to try to use an issue that does not make your own indifference to torture and murder so clear. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brant Gaede Posted December 14, 2018 Share Posted December 14, 2018 It is not a proper role--as opposed to example --for the United States government to morally inflict itself on the world. But Woodrow Wilson did just that turning the Great War into WWI. The proper role of a government is to protect the lives and property--tbe rights--of its citizens. The idea that socialized medicine is benign because it dispenses medicine and such is purblindedness to the bigger picture of what could and ought to have been from the context of freedom. Everything government is and does is an expression of force. Retaliatory force is its only justification. Socialism is the initiation of force--the violation of rights. --Brant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brant Gaede Posted December 14, 2018 Share Posted December 14, 2018 56 minutes ago, caroljane said: The hyperbole virus has got you too Brant. It is , maybe,debatable that simply by existing, a State is a torturer. And socialistic state practices do affect everyone, But being able to afford pain medicine, because others as well as I pay taxes, is not a torturous effect, for example. Quite the reverse, trust me. And since there are states, none of them should be patted on the back by other states for deliberately and flagrantly torturing . Just. Should. Not. Carol, I was a Special Forces Aidman, a combat veteran of the Vietnam War. I've seen hundreds of dead bodies. Do you think a jejune moral/philosophical discussion about torture has much effect on me? There are good guys and bad guys in war. The baddest good guys eat the bad guys for lunch and go get second helpings so back home the ladies can vote Churchill out of office so they can get free medicine. I neither condone nor condemn torture per se. The context creates the morality. If one is capable of it it can be immoral not to do it. Guns per se are neither moral nor immoral. How they are used creates the morality. Automobiles are neither . . . --Brant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonathan Posted December 14, 2018 Share Posted December 14, 2018 13 hours ago, caroljane said: Got me there, J. I have hardly any grip to get. Never could open JARS. But have taken a break from outside world, and have now been inside for two hours. Still trying to figure out if you approve of state-approved torture and murder of citizens without trial, etc. For any state whatsoever,since it is about broad moral principles we occasionally debate here, or at least used to in the past. Well, I have no doubt that you approve of state-approved torture and murder. It's your philosophy And, no, you don't debate moral principles. You only boast that your opinions, about what you wish to use the state to compel others to do, are highly "moral." You don't back it up with anything resembling "debate." J 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
william.scherk Posted December 14, 2018 Share Posted December 14, 2018 11 hours ago, caroljane said: 12 hours ago, Michael Stuart Kelly said: your man Khashoggi Michael! His boy Crown Prince Bonesaw! Where does this end ... ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stuart Kelly Posted December 14, 2018 Share Posted December 14, 2018 4 minutes ago, william.scherk said: Where does this end ... ? William, That's obvious. It should end where it began: Saudi Arabia. This has nothing to do with us, meaning USA, Canada, etc. Yet you anti-Trumpers keep throwing it around at pro-Trump people and calling them heartless trying to get them to feel shame. I wish you guys really cared about murder and torture, especially of women and gays, but you obviously prefer to blank them our to push your political agenda. After all, one can't make an omelette without breaking a few eggs, huh? Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
william.scherk Posted December 14, 2018 Share Posted December 14, 2018 (edited) 2 hours ago, Michael Stuart Kelly said: This has nothing to do with us, meaning USA, Canada, etc. Yet you anti-Trumpers keep throwing it around at pro-Trump people and calling them heartless trying to get them to feel shame. The USA and Canada both have robust relationships between their states and the Saudi state, as well as long-term relations as arms-suppliers. The Khashoggi killing impacts these relationships. The US Senate has called for a reversal of US support for the Saudi war effort in Yemen**, which has turned out to be a humanitarian catastrophe. The administration at present doesn't see any need to re-assess or modify its relations with Saudi Arabia. The Khashoggi murder has had a ripple effect. The White House point-man on Saudi Arabia has advised the Crown Prince on how to 'weather the storm.' "You anti-Trumpers keep ... calling them [pro-Trump people] heartless." Nope. Endless war for profit meets the Senate. 2 hours ago, Michael Stuart Kelly said: I wish you guys really cared about murder and torture Oh. ________________________________ ** "In a historic rebuke of the Trump administration’s Saudi policy, senators voted to end U.S. support for the Yemen war, then unanimously held Saudi Arabia’s crown prince responsible for the murder of Jamal Khashoggi." The Senate is unanimously "you guys." You people. You. Meanwhile, "they" go back to endless war for profit, right? Edited December 14, 2018 by william.scherk Link to links Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stuart Kelly Posted December 14, 2018 Share Posted December 14, 2018 1 hour ago, william.scherk said: The Khashoggi killing impacts these relationships. William, No it doesn't. It impacts the fake news, the fake news pundits, social justice blatherers and political grandstanders. No one else. The money people don't give a damn. The power people don't either, for that matter. This last means the ones with real power, not the ones seeking power. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stuart Kelly Posted December 14, 2018 Share Posted December 14, 2018 1 hour ago, william.scherk said: Oh. William, See what I mean? You don't care about the murder and torture of gays and women in Islamic states. "Oh" is all you have to say about it. I wish this were different, but it isn't. I don't think it ever will be, either, but I still harbor hope... Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stuart Kelly Posted December 14, 2018 Share Posted December 14, 2018 btw - About the Yemen thing, I don't discuss this with people who frame it as Angels versus Devils. The thing's a mess on all sides, but there's no point in discussing it with people who misidentify that badly. I will say this. The Yemen affair is a lot more complicated than: Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
william.scherk Posted December 14, 2018 Share Posted December 14, 2018 14 hours ago, caroljane said: That's what your man Khashoggi worked to implement in the world. Others who work to implement the same results--ones he use to work for--killed him. They killed him before he killed them. That's the long and short of it. His boy Elroy ... Does the unanimous voice of the Senate 'impact' the relationships? Can it? Or does the extraordinary war in Yemen continue with USA support? Does it matter? 20 minutes ago, Michael Stuart Kelly said: You don't care about the murder and torture of gays and women in Islamic states. My earlier "Oh" was my reaction to a similar earlier assessment, an assignment to a collective blob. The present assessment is faulty. No one is likely persuaded that William is guilty of the charge above. It is, in the lingo, a "smear." 'You used to be better than this, William.' When we deliberate, we don't generally know which allegations will be well-warranted going in, which facts will emerge from inquiry, which particular acts may be said to be proven, which assumptions were wrong and which were right. When we deliberate, sometimes the first order of business is wrangling over the right questions to ask. My opening bid for a question is: "Can this so-called rebuke to the administration make any difference to US policy toward Saudi Arabia" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stuart Kelly Posted December 14, 2018 Share Posted December 14, 2018 31 minutes ago, william.scherk said: No one is likely persuaded that William is guilty of the charge above William, That's where you are wrong. From the comments I read, you are perceived to be a hypocrite about this by plenty of "no ones." Even now, under direct criticism, you have not a single word to say in commiseration with the poor gay and female souls who are slaughtered, tortured and dismembered within Islamic states. What's more, when pressed hard enough, you will mumble a bit about that being bad, but then all those people go back down the black hole of nothingness in your comments as you heroically crusade to expose the hypocrisy of others (especially pro-Trump people) around you for their callousness. People see that. Some have said it to your face. You are what you are, whether you like that or not. You are not some fantasy you say you are. You are what you do. That's what people see. I, personally, don't think you are a hypocrite because you actually went into the fray and saw reality up close on that Syrian blog. But in terms of what is important to you these days, I think the gay and women victims of Islamic states--the actual people--are far, far, far, far down on your list of priorities. More like a talking point than actual human beings... In fact, I doubt you would ever even bring out that talking point on your own unless you could frame it as a criticism of President Trump. For example, Yemen... You are sooooooooo concerned about the Yemeni victims, but not about who they torture and massacre... That's because you can criticize President Trump with the first (Saudi bombings and so on), but not the second. The victims of the Yemenis don't count. huh? Chew a little khat and they can magically disappear... You say one thing about Islamic state victims, especially gays and women, that is when you bother to mention them at all. But you do another. So it's reasonable to assume you don't care about them... Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stuart Kelly Posted December 14, 2018 Share Posted December 14, 2018 44 minutes ago, william.scherk said: Does the unanimous voice of the Senate 'impact' the relationships? Can it? Or does the extraordinary war in Yemen continue with USA support? Does it matter? William, It basically doesn't matter. Let's see if something concrete comes of this or just hot air. My guess is it will be just hot air. Grandstanding for votes and press coverage. btw - I am against US participation in this. And I weep for all the victims, Yemeni and the victims of Yemenis. The US should let the idiots involved kill each other and worry about protecting Americans. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stuart Kelly Posted December 14, 2018 Share Posted December 14, 2018 21 hours ago, caroljane said: Since becoming president, Trump has accomplished the highest toll of gun deaths the United States has ever seen! I stand in awe... Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jules Troy Posted December 14, 2018 Share Posted December 14, 2018 And yet we have more murders in Toronto this year than NYC. So much for gun laws being the problem. Canadian gun laws would make even democrats weep. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Letendre Posted December 14, 2018 Share Posted December 14, 2018 7 minutes ago, Jules Troy said: And yet we have more murders in Toronto this year than NYC. So much for gun laws being the problem. Canadian gun laws would make even democrats weep. Trudeau must be responsible for that. It is his one and only “accomplishment.” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonathan Posted December 14, 2018 Share Posted December 14, 2018 55 minutes ago, Jon Letendre said: Trudeau must be responsible for that. It is his one and only “accomplishment.” Turdeau, yes, but also Carol. She caused most of it. J Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stuart Kelly Posted December 15, 2018 Share Posted December 15, 2018 1 hour ago, Jules Troy said: And yet we have more murders in Toronto this year than NYC. So much for gun laws being the problem. Canadian gun laws would make even democrats weep. Jules, I heard the gun violence in Canada was all due to some radio stations playing "Baby, It's Cold Outside." They were told to stop and they wouldn't. So boom boom boom... Rape culture no more... Michael EDIT: I'm going to risk my reputation, my livelihood, my very life. Yes! I shall post the video! OL readers deserve to see the rapists! Long live the social justice warriors! They protect us all against these monsters... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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