caroljane Posted July 7, 2018 Share Posted July 7, 2018 The Ayn Rand Institute apparently says nay, OL and others say yea. What do the rest of the Rand-interested think? I put this into Psych and not Poli, on purpose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stuart Kelly Posted July 7, 2018 Share Posted July 7, 2018 3 hours ago, caroljane said: What do the rest of the Rand-interested think? Carol, They are just as divided on Facebook. Oddly enough, the ARI-TAS split does not make much of a difference. From what I have observed, the guru-ness of the person seems to be a characteristic of anti-Trumpers among the O-Land elites (all sides), but among the rank and file, it's pretty much divided. As a general rule, I have found that hardline Randians (all sides) tend to be anti-Trump and independent Randians tend to be pro-Trump. What's odd is that I sincerely believe Rand would have gushed over Trump, not as a Randian hero, but as a Mr. Productive version of the President of the United States. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KorbenDallas Posted July 7, 2018 Share Posted July 7, 2018 12 hours ago, caroljane said: The Ayn Rand Institute apparently says nay, OL and others say yea. What do the rest of the Rand-interested think? I put this into Psych and not Poli, on purpose. No, not a chance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KorbenDallas Posted July 7, 2018 Share Posted July 7, 2018 I wonder what Judge Monkey would say? Judge Monkey, would Rand have voted for Trump? Spoiler "Nope!" Well, there you have it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anthony Posted July 7, 2018 Share Posted July 7, 2018 Doubt she'd have primarily taken the economic-political-foreign affairs stance, (where the President is doing damn well, and no worse than his predecessors, at very least, and if anything, less statist than they) but looked first at the moral-cultural position. As a strike-back at the outraged and scared self-sacrificers and sacrificers lately seen popping out of their holes, indisputably yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KorbenDallas Posted July 7, 2018 Share Posted July 7, 2018 9 minutes ago, anthony said: Doubt she'd have primarily taken the economic-political-foreign affairs stance, (where the President is doing damn well, and no worse than his predecessors, at very least, and if anything, less statist than they) but looked first at the moral-cultural position. As a strike-back at the outraged and scared self-sacrificers and sacrificers lately seen popping out of their holes, indisputably yes. That's been a common idea here on OL, that this is one of the reasons Rand would have supported Trump. The correct mode of thinking is this: Would Rand have possibly supported someone that takes a stand against people who make sacrifices either to others or unto themselves? Yes. But that still doesn't mean she would have supported Trump. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stuart Kelly Posted July 7, 2018 Share Posted July 7, 2018 14 minutes ago, KorbenDallas said: The correct mode of thinking is this: Would Rand have possibly supported someone that takes a stand against people who make sacrifices either to others or unto themselves? Yes. But that still doesn't mean she would have supported Trump. Korben, LOL... In other words, Rand would possibly support the abstraction, but definitely not the reality... (scratching head)... It sure gets fun when we channel Rand. I'll try to come up with a practicing psychic soon... Since Carol started the thread with this premise, I wonder if her skill stack includes communion with the dead... Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KorbenDallas Posted July 7, 2018 Share Posted July 7, 2018 18 minutes ago, Michael Stuart Kelly said: Korben, LOL... In other words, Rand would possibly support the abstraction, but definitely not the reality... (scratching head)... It sure gets fun when we channel Rand. I'll try to come up with a practicing psychic soon... Since Carol started the thread with this premise, I wonder if her skill stack includes communion with the dead... Michael Well there is the question whether the reality is the abstraction... The abstraction that Rand would support a person who doesn't sacrifice others or others unto himself, the answer is yes. Is the reality that Trump is that person? I say no. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stuart Kelly Posted July 7, 2018 Share Posted July 7, 2018 29 minutes ago, KorbenDallas said: I say no. Korben, And I say yes. More importantly, though, I think I said it better above: "... I sincerely believe Rand would have gushed over Trump, not as a Randian hero, but as a Mr. Productive version of the President of the United States." I say that knowing how many times Rand thwarted the popularly-accepted predictions of people who claimed to know her thinking. She was really good at pissing people off like that. For instance, it's hard to see it now because it's common knowledge in current-day O-Land, but there was once a time when Rand's admiration for Mickey Spillane had a lot of people bugged and seriously mad at her. They used to think Mike Hammer was nothing but glorified sadism and violence for the sake of violence--entertainment for the lower classes and not the intelligent ones at that. It was considered by them as the worst form of pulp fiction. And the idea of sacrificing others, that didn't even enter the equation with Spillane's stories. Mike Hammer would just as soon shoot somebody in his way or crack his skull as have a drink with his cop friend, Pat. For example, think of the scene in his first Hammer book, I, The Jury, where Mike Hammer is in a bar with Charlotte Manning, who he is in love with. A couple of strangers drinking at the bar make some cheap talk about her. On the way out, Hammer, without them seeing him coming, cracks their heads together like coconuts and leaves feeling satisfied as they fall off their bar stools. Would anybody call that Objectivism? Would anybody call that the world of John Galt and Howard Roark? The tut-tut-tutters thought that kind of thing was a huge disqualifier. Yet Rand not only gushed over Spillane, she used his work for examples of romantic art and how to write well. Michael 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caroljane Posted July 7, 2018 Author Share Posted July 7, 2018 This is why I finnd this such a fascinating speculation, .so many variables. Wd like to sayt more but have been indulging in minor surgery (not plastic alas, but ocular, so for a few days I can read print Mr MaGoo style but operating laptop is truly arduous , npt the ardour I enjoy either Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stuart Kelly Posted July 7, 2018 Share Posted July 7, 2018 10 minutes ago, caroljane said: This is why I finnd this such a fascinating speculation, .so many variables. Carol, You still didn't say anything about your psychic abilities or lack thereof. (I hope all goes well with your surgery...) Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anthony Posted July 7, 2018 Share Posted July 7, 2018 1 hour ago, KorbenDallas said: Well there is the question whether the reality is the abstraction... The abstraction that Rand would support a person who doesn't sacrifice others or others unto himself, the answer is yes. Is the reality that Trump is that person? I say no. Fair comment. My observation is that the President is overtly against ~any~ American "sacrifice", not for nor by anyone, definitely including a sacrifice to him. ("Dictator" nonsense from some observers). From that needed base, he appears also prepared to show good will to any other nation, if warranted and non self-sacrificial. He won't see it in these 'altruistic' terms, necessarily, but he has been around and I think knows what the effects of sacrifices by and on people look like. The particular Leftist sacrificial mode (I believe a more aggressive version than anything the Christian conservatives could come up with or allow) one notes from its worst adherents now, was gathering steam under Obama, and that had to be pushed back first. That's why they're hopping mad. Those of us on the outside who need to see an unabashedly self-interested USA imagine how even better the country, domestically, would have done so far, with anything but this rabidly biased media coverage attacking or inflating every slightest thing. The altruist media, in large part, helped create Obama's glorious image with selective (etc.) reporting, and can't bear being impotent to undo Trump's by the same means. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonathan Posted July 7, 2018 Share Posted July 7, 2018 16 hours ago, caroljane said: The Ayn Rand Institute apparently says nay, OL and others say yea. What do the rest of the Rand-interested think? I put this into Psych and not Poli, on purpose. It would depend on Rand's mood at the time. She could go either way. She always sided with the one against the many, whenever she viewed a situation in that light, so, if she focused on the left going apeshit over Trump and their campaigns to destroy him, she'd love to stand up for him, and sort of acknowledge his flaws but place less importance on them. If she were focused on style and technical philosophical differences rather than similarities, she'd label him a rudderless pragmatist who only happened to get it right, so far, about ninety percent of the time according to his inadvertently being in sync with her views, but he would inevitably go off course without the guidance of her philosophy. J 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caroljane Posted July 7, 2018 Author Share Posted July 7, 2018 15 hours ago, Michael Stuart Kelly said: Carol, They are just as divided on Facebook. Oddly enough, the ARI-TAS split does not make much of a difference. From what I have observed, the guru-ness of the person seems to be a characteristic of anti-Trumpers among the O-Land elites (all sides), but among the rank and file, it's pretty much divided. As a general rule, I have found that hardline Randians (all sides) tend to be anti-Trump and independent Randians tend to be pro-Trump. What's odd is that I sincerely believe Rand would have gushed over Trump, not as a Randian hero, but as a Mr. Productive version of the President of the United States. Michael Actually I tend to agree with you on this, but there are other factors of her fascinating personality- I can't decide. We know she would not vote for a woman, as she stated. But still what if it were Sarah Palin instead of McCain against Obama> ? Could she have adjusted her thinking? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caroljane Posted July 7, 2018 Author Share Posted July 7, 2018 4 hours ago, Michael Stuart Kelly said: Carol, You still didn't say anything about your psychic abilities or lack thereof. (I hope all goes well with your surgery...) Michael ;lol my middle sight is still all blurred but my long sight is amazing. I I had no idea I was so nearly blind, I must have been a public menace. As to my psychic abilities, I think they are developing nicely thank you. Along with my feminine intuitions about AR and her beliefs about the correlation between outer beauty and inner integrity. And as Jonathandsaid it would depend on her mood at the time. Even thoiugh J has decided to despise me, he is so often right on nonpolitical things.y Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anthony Posted July 8, 2018 Share Posted July 8, 2018 7 hours ago, KorbenDallas said: That's been a common idea here on OL, that this is one of the reasons Rand would have supported Trump. Actually, I don't recall seeing this common idea (altruism) in support of Trump by anyone. No need for psychic insight into Rand, I think one needs the major, Objectivist ethical argument contra altruism (and AR's often stated concerns about altruism in America). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KorbenDallas Posted July 8, 2018 Share Posted July 8, 2018 5 hours ago, anthony said: Actually, I don't recall seeing this common idea (altruism) in support of Trump by anyone. No need for psychic insight into Rand, I think one needs the major, Objectivist ethical argument contra altruism (and AR's often stated concerns about altruism in America). It's been implied several times and sometimes overt. Trump builds honestly/his businesses are honest---so he doesn't sacrifice others. Trump's character is such that he isn't a self-sacrificer. Trump stands for individual rights---so he doesn't want people sacrificing themselves to others. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BaalChatzaf Posted July 8, 2018 Share Posted July 8, 2018 5 hours ago, KorbenDallas said: Trump stands for individual rights---so he doesn't want people sacrificing themselves to others. How do your reconcile this with Trump's slogan --- Make America Great Again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anthony Posted July 8, 2018 Share Posted July 8, 2018 10 hours ago, KorbenDallas said: It's been implied several times and sometimes overt. Trump builds honestly/his businesses are honest---so he doesn't sacrifice others. Trump's character is such that he isn't a self-sacrificer. Trump stands for individual rights---so he doesn't want people sacrificing themselves to others. Ah right. See what you mean, Trump's own ethical stance, shown by past exploits and productivity. OK. As (Ithink) one wants no more from leaders than to be upfront, take the country in a positive direction, uphold the Constitution and not exceed their executive powers, his personal morality does count. (His "let's make a deal" approach, I've thought a good and originally capitalist way to achieve win-win results, one that scares most people comfortably accustomed to safely staid bureaucratic channels and "diplomacy", whatever the results). Rather, I'm thinking the general ethics of the President's most voluble detractors, is where altruism should be floated. Their morals are classically altruist: The "other" is the standard. Minding everyone's business but one's own - loudly showing off one's 'virtues' for others to esteem - sneering down at others who aren't as sophisticated and cool; promoting selected groups of people as 'victims' - attacking and drowning out any signs of individualism and independent judgment (reason and the right of free speech); pushing for the sacrifice of America in chaos and economic recession (and worse) to the point of sedition - and more I don't recall now; I think just about every explicit aspect and insane behavior we see and hear is ~a symptom~ of implicit altruism, already existing, and which the election of President Trump has openly revealed - which they quickly realized was a big blow to the grip on people their moral creed has, so explains the extreme emotions. Where I started getting on to the fact that it's not firstly about American politics, it's ethics, was seeing here a mirror of the attitudes you have there. Nothing like the degree you have, which must be devastating in its divisiveness among friends and families I imagine, but bad enough. Often one can't join any group of people without someone pointedly prompting a conversation with: What about Trump? See what he did now? Haha. Or: shame, how those poor people must suffer because of him! And if you won't join in, or try to explain errors and balance their perceptions, or mention that we have much worse problems in this country and can't rightfully be pointing fingers at other nations and leaders, your opposition is noted and recorded. It's visible in their behavior. You are one of "those", henceforth to be shunned by the righteous-minded. Sacrificial altruism is universal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stuart Kelly Posted July 8, 2018 Share Posted July 8, 2018 11 hours ago, KorbenDallas said: Trump builds honestly/his businesses are honest---so he doesn't sacrifice others. Trump's character is such that he isn't a self-sacrificer. Trump stands for individual rights---so he doesn't want people sacrificing themselves to others. Korben, I like it. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stuart Kelly Posted July 8, 2018 Share Posted July 8, 2018 5 hours ago, BaalChatzaf said: How do your reconcile this with Trump's slogan --- Make America Great Again Bob, It's not either-or. Individuals have to live in a country. They can either work for their country to be great, or they can think their country is a shithole and work against it, or they can be indifferent to it and take what comes when they have to. If their country is destroyed, generally their life as an individual will be negatively affected. If their country is great, they as individuals will generally have a better life. This goes for their families and loved ones, too. And the celebrities important to them. And their pets. This is kind of primary stuff, no? Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Letendre Posted July 8, 2018 Share Posted July 8, 2018 6 hours ago, BaalChatzaf said: How do your reconcile this with Trump's slogan --- Make America Great Again That’s not a demand of citizens, it’s a campaign promise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Letendre Posted July 8, 2018 Share Posted July 8, 2018 I’ve not seen President Trump speak about not sacrificing oneself to others or country. In the cases of police and soldiers, he speaks positively about it. He does speak a lot about putting an end to the elite sacrificing of all of us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stuart Kelly Posted July 8, 2018 Share Posted July 8, 2018 2 minutes ago, Jon Letendre said: I’ve not seen President Trump speak about not sacrificing oneself to others or country. In the cases of police and soldiers, he speaks positively about it. Jon, And those are our paid protectors. That danger is a job requirement. As it should be. Imagine how far yellow police and soldiers would get us. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caroljane Posted July 8, 2018 Author Share Posted July 8, 2018 1 hour ago, Jon Letendre said: I’ve not seen President Trump speak about not sacrificing oneself to others or country. lol and you sure never will. He made sure to avoid sacrificing his precious hide and tender feet pro patria mori many times , despite his prized military school training, which equipped him admirably for his business life of bullying, blustering and bluffing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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