How do you know murder is wrong?


moralist

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50 minutes ago, anthony said:

That's where many, especially the new left, have bottomed out now, to making judgments on people by "primacy of emotion".

America is the society of the perpetually emotionally offended. nodder.gif

 

Greg

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16 hours ago, jts said:

The Bible does not teach white supremacy. The Koran teaches violence...

...against unbelievers.

While many Muslims don't follow the letter of the law of that doctrine, some don't have any problem if others do. It's like a neighbor who appears to be nice and friendly while owning a vicious pitbull. The dog is employed as a means of expressing their own latent hatred (of Jews Americans and Western civilization) so that they appear to be good when in reality they aren't.

This is why terrorism continues to fester within Islam. It is being enabled from within Islam...

...with the outside help of politically correct liberal secularists who also hate Jews Americans and Western civilization.

 

Greg

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11 minutes ago, jts said:

And against their own. Honor killings, cutting off hands and feet, beatings.

Of course.

I'm not really all that concerned with self inflicted harm within Islam because they chose it. Why they would choose a religion of hatred is a whole other question.

I've said before that every evil act is preceded by the angry blame (unjust accusation) of others, and Islam offers a good example of this. Many Muslims blame (unjustly accuse) Jews and Christians for preventing them from living a happy life, and that their only path to happiness is over Jewish and Christian graves.

Greg

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18 minutes ago, moralist said:

Of course.

I'm not really all that concerned with self inflicted harm within Islam because they chose it. Why they would choose a religion of hatred is a whole other question.

 

I'm not sure they chose their religion. According to Nonie Darwish, who grew up under sharia in Egypt, under sharia (Islamic law) you are born a Muslim by law and you have no choice and your parents have no choice. Then if you leave Islam, that is apostasy and you are an apostate. The penalty for apostasy is death. Is this choice?

 

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7 minutes ago, jts said:

I'm not sure they chose their religion. According to Nonie Darwish, who grew up under sharia in Egypt, under sharia (Islamic law) you are born a Muslim by law and you have no choice and your parents have no choice. Then if you leave Islam, that is apostasy and you are an apostate. The penalty for apostasy is death. Is this choice?

In my opinion, yes.

 People create the kinds of nations in which they live by their own moral values. So they justly share the group karma of what they created.

This is what distinguishes America as an exceptional paradise to the dime a dozen Islamic shitholes.

Everyone chooses the life they are living right now... everyone.

 

Greg

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6 hours ago, anthony said:

It is the sort of Muslim who counts on the once-dependable, uncompromising Western standards of civilisation, I completely relate to. The man in the early article who decried all that smarmily Liberal-leftist glorification and appeasement of Islam - which is impeding the cause of reform, and aiding Islamists - does not want moral relativism. He believes his religion has to become civilised like other ones, and it won't happen without increasing, rational criticism. He's asking for a firm Western moral opposition to the wholesale growth, power and influence of his religion and its laws, and I imagine would be exactly the individual who'd live and let live among other believers of other faiths and cultures. In justice, he deserves intellectual support and encouragement, also to the silent many who look to the West as their saviour . Without support, he is left out alone on a limb.

Tony,

This is the kind of observation that belongs on a philosophy forum.

What I object to is that whenever something like this is said, up pops someone to say:
-- Moderate Muslims don't exist,
-- Islam is violent, period,
-- If a Muslim is good, it's because he doesn't practice Islam, so he's not really a Muslim,
-- There are only shitholes in Islamic culture,
-- Muhammad was a pedophile,
-- blah blah blah

It always goes back to these kinds of things.

The thing I most object to is the sheer repetition of stereotypical garbage in the place of reason as if it were reason.

It's like if we were to discuss Charles Murray's work on racial statistics, and someone keeps popping up talking about blacks eating watermelon and fried chicken all the time, or black bucks raping white women, or blacks only being worth something when they act like whites, and on and on (or stuff like that about latinos, etc.). It's low-thinking garbage to scratch a bigotry itch or maybe sheer terror. Whatever it is, it's not an engaged prefrontal neocortex.

There are plenty of problems with Islam, and plenty to discuss about how to get the Muslims who are among us to assimilate Western values, how to get them to isolate the fanatics among them and punish them, etc., but going on Jihad Watch and copy/pasting the same old cherry-picked texts from the Qu'ran for the thousandth time to show how icky Muslims are is not a discussion of fundamentals, nor even an indication that the copy/paster knows anything about the religion and Muslims.

We have brains and OL is not a Pavlovian experiment. We need more intelligent thought and less saliva when the bell dings.

:)

Michael

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6 hours ago, moralist said:

Bob offers a good example of the politically correct liberal value of taking pride in being crippled. In his case, his mental illness. Liberal Democrats promote this value by teaching it in government schools so as to train students to become bureaucratic employees.

Is I see it there is a causal connection for Autism...

Liberal government educated intellectuals mindfuck their offspring.

Bob's parents did a real job on him.

Greg

First I've ever heard that Autism was caused by nurture.

Mental illness is a metaphor. It's diagnosed by philosophers pretending to be doctors sanctioned by the state.

Autism may be sometimes caused by over-use of vaccines on babies.

Autism is not a disease. It's a condition.

--Brant

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5 hours ago, Peter said:

Has Michael parted from President Trump? Michael disagrees with calling a Muslim what they are, which is code words X, Y, and Z.

Peter,

I have not parted from President Trump and I have no problem with wholesale vetting based on culture during troubled times. (Believe it or not, I'm probably more restrictive than you on this. Don't forget, I fought for Trump--knowing this was what he was about--when you were supporting the National Review kind of Republicans, who helped create this immigration mess in the first place to get cheap labor.)

I like your term "code words." What does that code stand for, really? Hmmmmm... :) 

My problem is that if people misidentify something, especially on a philosophy forum, they will never fix the problem that that something causes. Why? Because they evaluate an image in their heads that doesn't exist rather than something that does exist. Then they claim that this mental image is what is causing the problem. They evaluate before identifying. They use code words in the place of their own eyes for creating the image in the identification phase.

Rotten folks in Islam exist, but so do good folks (the vast majority). All anyone needs to do is look. Once that's identified correctly, then we can evaluate it correctly.

To apply reason and use rational ethics, the rotten folks have to bear the responsibility for their rotten choices. And the good folks should be acknowledged for their good choices.

After that evaluation, we can act with full knowledge that we are dealing with reality, not imagination where anything goes.

Michael

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24 minutes ago, Brant Gaede said:

Autism may be sometimes caused by over-use of vaccines on babies.

Autism is not a disease. It's a condition.

Brant,

My stepson is autistic. High functioning, but still autistic.

In my experience, those who haven't lived with autism don't have a clue about it. There are lots of "experts" who make dogmatic statements about it all the time, but Kat and I just ignore them. She has done a deep dive in both sides of the vaccine debate (and, yes, excessive vaccines are a factor), nutrition, environmental conditions, etc. We keep trying a lot of different approaches because that's all we can do.

The best thing I have come up with from my end (and it's only one thing among many) is help Sean create--by choice and effort--neural pathways that should have formed automatically with growth. Getting him to see causality is not easy, for instance. So this neural network has to be built referent by referent until an abstraction can be formed. Ditto for metaphors. (Imagine having to constantly explain things like being in hot water has nothing to do with heat or water except by analogy, then explain what the analogy means and detail the similarities. :) ) And so on.

But now he's writing stories and published a couple of them on Amazon. They're not great, but they have some cool ideas and images. For instance, in one story he turned the fourth wall into a human-like character that only his protagonist can see and his protagonist is always bickering with it. :) So something's working. But it's a laborious process and requires an enormous amount of patience.

Michael

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50 minutes ago, Brant Gaede said:

 

Autism may be sometimes caused by over-use of vaccines on babies.

 

--Brant

There is no clinical basis to that hypothesis.  None. Zero. Zip. 

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30 minutes ago, Michael Stuart Kelly said:

Brant,

My stepson is autistic. High functioning, but still autistic.

In my experience, those who haven't lived with autism don't have a clue about it. There are lots of "experts" who make dogmatic statements about it all the time, but Kat and I just ignore them. She has done a deep dive in both sides of the vaccine debate (and, yes, excessive vaccines are a factor), nutrition, environmental conditions, etc. We keep trying a lot of different approaches because that's all we can do.

The best thing I have come up with from my end (and it's only one thing among many) is help Sean create--by choice and effort--neural pathways that should have formed automatically with growth. Getting him to see causality is not easy, for instance. So this neural network has to be built referent by referent until an abstraction can be formed. Ditto for metaphors. (Imagine having to constantly explain things like being in hot water has nothing to do with heat or water except by analogy, then explain what the analogy means and detail the similarities. :) ) And so on.

But now he's writing stories and published a couple of them on Amazon. They're not great, but they have some cool ideas and images. For instance, in one story he turned the fourth wall into a human-like character that only his protagonist can see and his protagonist is always bickering with it. :) So something's working. But it's a laborious process and requires an enormous amount of patience.

Michael

You have done well by your son.  

I  now have some appreciation of what my parents had to deal with.  

Mom and Dad  were secular saints. 

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1 hour ago, Brant Gaede said:

First I've ever heard that Autism was caused by nurture.

That's not just my opinion, Brant...

"In addition to Baron-Cohen’s research, Karla Van Meter conducted a study at the University of California, Davis and found “clusters” of autism in areas of Southern California born to college-educated parents. Van Meter found that highly educated parents were twice as likely to have children with autism as those parents with lower levels of education."

http://www.livestrong.com/article/1006821-autism-parents-high-iq/

...but this is. Secularist liberal government education is a mindfuck... and mindfucked parents make mindfucked kids.

A dead giveaway Bob was mindfucked is the fact that he's proud of it. That's an important part of the indoctrination process so that it gets passed on.

I have autistic relatives and spent this afternoon with an autistic kid (they're mostly boys) so I'm totally familiar with the situation.

Greg

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1 hour ago, moralist said:

Secularist liberal government education is a mindfuck... and mindfucked parents make mindfucked kids.

Greg,

That's how autism happens?

Hmmmmm...

1 hour ago, moralist said:

I have autistic relatives and spent this afternoon with an autistic kid (they're mostly boys) so I'm totally familiar with the situation.

So how did your relatives get an autistic kid?

:evil:  :) 

(Sorry... that was just too well set up to resist. :) )

Michael

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20 minutes ago, Michael Stuart Kelly said:

Greg,

That's how autism happens?

Hmmmmm...

So how did your relatives get an autistic kid?

:evil:  :) 

Michael

Yes, in my opinion, Michael.

They were highly educated by the government.

In my view, the way the government educates kids can literally damage their minds... and it begins with parents who were educated by the government. 

The goal of government education is to produce compliant obedient bureaucratic employees who all think in exactly the same way as the government employed teachers who taught them...

...because they were also educated by government employed teachers to think in exactly the same way as they were taught by government educated teachers who were also educated by... (on and on...)

As I see it... a kid leaves a government university more mentally crippled than they entered.

Greg

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Greg,

Autism is physical.

Some of it can be reversed with neuroplasticity (slow-building neural networks), but attitudes don't cause it. Attitudes can aggravate it when the child needs certain kinds of attention and gets another, but the children come into life autistic, or are transformed from one day to the next with a vaccine shot as has happened too often to ignore, or things like that.

When there is a correlation of high pockets of autism with certain attitudes, I suspect the lifestyle of people who think in those ways come with common habits that include the toxic elements. Whether this is nutrition, vaccines, pollution, cleaning chemicals, microwaves, radiations of different sorts, etc., nobody knows yet. Nutrition has become a biggie in many cases (not all). Kat sees this all the time among the people she interacts with.

Also, there are many kinds of autism. It's like heart attacks. There are varieties. This is one area where it's easy to oversimplify and end up contributing to the problem. Take a look at the vaccine debate and the mess that's caused through oversimplification. People yell at each other instead of seeking cures, meanwhile, autism stats grow and grow. This is both sides, too. Some kids even get sick from not getting correct vaccines.

Michael

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2 minutes ago, Michael Stuart Kelly said:

Greg,

Autism is physical.

Makes sense to me, Michael. I can believe that government education can do physical damage to a kid's mind.

Greg

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1 hour ago, moralist said:

That's not just my opinion, Brant...

"In addition to Baron-Cohen’s research, Karla Van Meter conducted a study at the University of California, Davis and found “clusters” of autism in areas of Southern California born to college-educated parents. Van Meter found that highly educated parents were twice as likely to have children with autism as those parents with lower levels of education."

http://www.livestrong.com/article/1006821-autism-parents-high-iq/

 

Does education affect the physical structure of the brain? Autism can be diagnosed by brain image.

 

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1 hour ago, moralist said:

That's not just my opinion, Brant...

"In addition to Baron-Cohen’s research, Karla Van Meter conducted a study at the University of California, Davis and found “clusters” of autism in areas of Southern California born to college-educated parents. Van Meter found that highly educated parents were twice as likely to have children with autism as those parents with lower levels of education."

http://www.livestrong.com/article/1006821-autism-parents-high-iq/

...but this is. Secularist liberal government education is a mindfuck... and mindfucked parents make mindfucked kids.

A dead giveaway Bob was mindfucked is the fact that he's proud of it. That's an important part of the indoctrination process so that it gets passed on.

I have autistic relatives and spent this afternoon with an autistic kid (they're mostly boys) so I'm totally familiar with the situation.

Greg

Correlation does not prove causation.

--Brant

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2 hours ago, BaalChatzaf said:

There is no clinical basis to that hypothesis.  None. Zero. Zip. 

Typo: I meant "maybe" but wrote "may be." Using the right word would have also restructured the sentence.

Your statement is correct (as far as I know). A hypothesis, of course, is what is worked off of looking for a theory.

--Brant

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3 hours ago, moralist said:

Makes sense to me, Michael. I can believe that government education can do physical damage to a kid's mind.

Greg,

Well, government education is physical since shit is physical.

:)

Your Lamarckian theory of the evolution of autism is intriguing and I agree with some of it--I see government education as an aggravating factor on kids who already have autism. But I have to keep looking because I want to help cure this thing. Basically, I see your idea as a symptom, not a cause. It's food for thought, though.

Let's go woo-woo for a minute. There's a very attractive theory out there from the Law of Attraction lady (Hicks-Abraham). She says autistics are souls who have decided to come back into earthly life in that form in order to teach people how to love others without trying to mold them. According to her, the urge and pressure to mold others is the greatest disease emerging from a high-tech society.

The reason these souls decide to be autistic is precisely because they have to be accepted the way they are. Autistic kids are unmoldable from the beginning. (Anyone who has lived with an autistic person knows exactly what she means. :) ) So adults with the control-freak disease have to learn how to become human again around them.

She notices that almost all autistics are happy when they are by themselves. They only become miserable when someone tries to mold them into something they are not--make them feel shame for behavior (especially social behavior) where they find no shame, make them accept explanations and inferences for ideas their brains tell them are meaningless, in short, make them imitate unhappy people when they are perfectly happy.

This is sappy and woo-woo and I get a blank when she goes into the reincarnation part, but I like the sentiment. The core of her observation about happiness and non-modability of autistics--and this widespread bullying control-freak disease of modern society--is profound. It bears out my own observation.

Hell, O-Land itself might be autistic.

:)

(That's a quip. :) But I believe many high-functioning autistics are attracted to Rand. )

Note there are violent unhappy exceptions among autistic children, but they are a small minority and, like I said, there are several forms of autism. Also, autism is not exclusionary. It's perfectly possible for autism to be wedded to epilepsy and other malfunctions of the brain's wiring and neurochemical balance.

Have you even considered that you might be a high-functioning autistic who found his certainties? I have about me. I notice that I only get anxious when I think about other people. When I'm by myself, I love being me. Did I learn that or did I come that way? Maybe both... :) 

Michael

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3 hours ago, jts said:

Does education affect the physical structure of the brain? Autism can be diagnosed by brain image.

 

In my opinion, it can.

Secular liberal government education imprints students minds to think a certain way and not to think in other ways. This creates employees who will serve the bureaucracy. It also creates weak security seeking parasites who will insure the perpetual growth of the bureaucracy if only to secure a niche in it for themselves.

Creativity productivity innovation and the self motivated entrepreneurial spirit are found outside of the secular liberal government education system.

Greg

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The idea wrong education can cause autism seems completely nonsensical to me. However, that doesn't mean the government isn't damaging millions of young minds through education such as using the Look-Say reading method instead of phonics and the complete the lack of critical thinking.

--Brant

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12 minutes ago, Brant Gaede said:

The idea wrong education can cause autism seems completely nonsensical to me. However, that doesn't mean the government isn't damaging millions of young minds through education such as using the Look-Say reading method instead of phonics and the complete the lack of critical thinking.

--Brant

Our tax funded elementary public schools are often illiteracy mills.   The Dark Satanic Mills of the local boards of "education".  Our public school system was invented in Prussia and brought into the U.S.  by Horace Mann.  The purpose of the Prussian system was to turn out obedient capable workers who would not embroil themselves in socialism.  They would be hard working,  law abiding   and above all Loyal to the State.   That is also what Horace Mann aimed for.  That is why  generations of school children  stood before an American Flag and Pledged Allegiance (with their right arms extended frontward -- Seig Heil!)

Please see http://forgottenhistoryblog.com/the-official-american-flag-salute-used-to-be-a-hitler-salute/

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10 hours ago, jts said:

Does education affect the physical structure of the brain? Autism can be diagnosed by brain image.

 

It can.  Young infants have more nerve fiber and interconnection in their  brain than they can use.  As the learn stuff (like a language, for example) this apparently leads to  culling of the interconnecting fibers.  Only those fibers that are of use survive and even grow more numerous.  The others  die off and are absorbed as molecular material into the surrounding tissue.  That is why the ability to easily learn multiple languages  tends to diminish in environments where only one language is used. By the time a kid is ten,  if he is monolingual he is stuck with the language he learned in the cradle.  It becomes very difficult thereafter to learn another language from  the start. 

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