How do you know murder is wrong?

[moralist]

9 hours ago, anthony said:

I think that's fair comment by Greg. In the same sense that man must choose to be man, and simply by dint of being 'a man' is no criterion, to be "American" is more than only being a citizen of the US.

America is an exceptional nation in that becoming one is not a matter of genetic bloodline, but is rather a conscious choice. Anyone can come here and live by American values regardless of where they are born..

Because of his liberal entitlement values, Bob will never understand nor appreciate that being an American means living by American values.

Greg

[Wolf DeVoon]

10 hours ago, anthony said:

I think that's fair comment by Greg. In the same sense that man must choose to be man, and simply by dint of being 'a man' is no criterion, to be "American" is more than only being a citizen of the US.

Whoa. I'm familiar with Rand's thinking, but this is way too extreme. Leave some room for villains and victims of history because Atlas didn't shrug. You're welcome to exclude homosexuals as non-men, that's about all. I'm thinking in particular of Kipling, Balzac, Poe, and Fitzgerald. Men undoubtedly, but strange birds.

[BaalChatzaf]

10 hours ago, anthony said:

I think that's fair comment by Greg. In the same sense that man must choose to be man, and simply by dint of being 'a man' is no criterion, to be "American" is more than only being a citizen of the US.

That is not what the law says.  Read the 15 th amendment to t he U.S. Constitution which is the Law of the Land.

[Brant Gaede]

2 hours ago, moralist said:

America is an exceptional nation in that becoming one is not a matter of genetic bloodline, but is rather a conscious choice. Anyone can come here and live by American values regardless of where they are born..

Because of his liberal entitlement values, Bob will never understand nor appreciate that being an American means living by American values.

Greg

Anyone cannot come here regardless of the values they live by.

--Brant

[moralist]

3 hours ago, Brant Gaede said:

Anyone cannot come here regardless of the values they live by.

--Brant

Sure they can, Brant.

Where I live has been declared a sanctuary city by the liberal democrat government, and the border has been wide open for decades.  

The freedom of America allows anyone to live here regardless of their values. This explains why the government is so huge. It needs to be gigantic in order to give free stuff to the parasitic majority who don't live by American values.

Greg

 

[moralist]

4 hours ago, BaalChatzaf said:

That is not what the law says.  Read the 15 th amendment to t he U.S. Constitution which is the Law of the Land.

See what I mean, Anthony?

Bob is an amoral secularist so he is completely blind to values because he has none. For him there is only the letter of the law as its own end, serving nothing greater than his government.

Greg

[Brant Gaede]

24 minutes ago, moralist said:

Sure they can, Brant.

Where I live has been declared a sanctuary city by the liberal democrat government, and the border has been wide open for decades.  

The freedom of America allows anyone to live here regardless of their values. This explains why the government is so huge. It needs to be gigantic in order to give free stuff to the parasitic majority who don't live by American values.

Greg

 

Anyone SHOULD NOT be allowed to come into this country.

I did need to correct my statement. Thanks.

--Brant

[BaalChatzaf]

2 hours ago, Brant Gaede said:

Anyone SHOULD NOT be allowed to come into this country.

I did need to correct my statement. Thanks.

--Brant

If that policy were followed the United States (as a nation) would be second or third rate scientifically judged.  Einstein would not have been allowed in.  He would not have urged Pres. Roosevelt  to develop the A-Bomb (probably a good thing in the long run).  The second world war would have gone one for another two years  and there would have been  2,000,000 additional American troops maimed and ruined. Very likely, poison gas and bacteriological weapons would have been used in Japan (Pres. Truman had authorized their use, but they were never deployed)  and that demon would have flown out of Pandora's Box. 

[Brant Gaede]

4 hours ago, BaalChatzaf said:

If that policy were followed the United States (as a nation) would be second or third rate scientifically judged.  Einstein would not have been allowed in.  He would not have urged Pres. Roosevelt  to develop the A-Bomb (probably a good thing in the long run).  The second world war would have gone one for another two years  and there would have been  2,000,000 additional American troops maimed and ruined. Very likely, poison gas and bacteriological weapons would have been used in Japan (Pres. Truman had authorized their use, but they were never deployed)  and that demon would have flown out of Pandora's Box. 

Anyone means everyone. It's pick and choose. No one has a right to enter this country unless already legally entitled as a citizen is. All real property is either public or private. Guarding the borders is guarding against trespass. The public weal is a trust for the private. Basically this is an aspect of national defense.

--Brant

[BaalChatzaf]

35 minutes ago, Brant Gaede said:

Anyone means everyone. It's pick and choose.

That is not how I read it.

[moralist]

9 hours ago, Brant Gaede said:

Anyone SHOULD NOT be allowed to come into this country.

I did need to correct my statement. Thanks.

--Brant

I completely agree with your qualifier, Brant.

However, besides my vote I'm completely powerless to implement government public policy. I did nothing to create the bloated bureaucracy which exists today. I am not responsible for what the government is now. It does not represent the values by which I live. It does not represent me.

But that's ok, because I don't need the government to represent me or my values. What I have discovered is that to the extent that I don't need the government in my life...

...not government education, not government debt relief, not government grants, not government loans, not government funding, not government benefits, not government employment, not government indemnification, not government healthcare... 

...to that exact same extent it leaves me alone to enjoy my life.

Here's an example: The liberal Democrat Governor, liberal Democrat State Senate, and the liberal Democrat State Assembly just raised the gasoline tax by 12 cents a gallon. This will cause inflation because gasoline or diesel is needed to transport and deliver most every product or service. They pegged the tax to the inflation it causes so that it can feed upon itself in a viscious cycle.

With the latest hike, the total state tax federal tax and sales tax and cap and trade fee on California gas is $1.12 per gallon. Right now regular is $2.75. So the gas is $1.63 and the tax is $1.12.

Now, I have absolutely no power to control either the price of gasoline or the cost of the taxes on it... however, I do have the power to control my response to it.

So this is what I have done. I established my business in our local town so that I don't need to be driving all over Los Angeles. We have a 40 mpg car. My work truck averages 25 mpg even fully loaded with tools and materials, and I use a 70 mpg motorcycle and a 100+ mpg scooter for grocery shopping, banking, and running errands.

So we need to use very little gas.

This is how to deal with situations over which I have no control. I creatively adapt so as not to become a helpless victim of the world around me.

 

Greg

[anthony]

15 hours ago, wolfdevoon said:

Whoa. I'm familiar with Rand's thinking, but this is way too extreme. Leave some room for villains and victims of history because Atlas didn't shrug. You're welcome to exclude homosexuals as non-men, that's about all. I'm thinking in particular of Kipling, Balzac, Poe, and Fitzgerald. Men undoubtedly, but strange birds.

There's a long way between 'men' and 'man'. 'Man' is a metaphysical abstraction and standard. To be 'man' doesn't come automatically, merely because one possesses the biological human nature. Who can "exclude" anyone (e.g. homosexuals) who makes the choice to be 'man'? (or, staying with the parallel, to be 'American'?) They must be welcomed.

If I have to be group-specific, I have known a good proportion of homosexuals whom I believe have chosen such. I conjecture it is ~precisely because~ many have had to think much more seriously about what most hetero 'men' take for granted and have absorbed collectively: about what it is to be men - and 'man'. The same thinking as have any serious, although superficially strange, writers.

[BaalChatzaf]

4 minutes ago, anthony said:

There's a long way between 'men' and 'man'. 'Man' is a metaphysical abstraction and standard. To be 'man' doesn't come automatically, merely because one possesses the biological nature. Who can "exclude" anyone (e.g. homosexuals) who makes the choice to be 'man'? (or, staying with the parallel, to be American?) They must be welcomed. If we have to be specific, I have known a good proportion of homosexuals whom I believe have chosen such. I conjecture it is ~precisely because~ many have had to think more seriously about what most hetero 'men' take for granted and have absorbed collectively: about what it is to be men - and 'man'. As have and do any serious, although superficially strange, writers.

One's  basic urges and basic sexual preferences are "wired in".  Engaged in acts of carnal intercourse are for the most part  chosen and voluntary.  Rape is the main exception. 

[Peter]

Greg wrote: However, besides my vote I'm completely powerless to implement government public policy. I did nothing to create the bloated bureaucracy which exists today. I am not responsible for what the government is now. It does not represent the values by which I live. It does not represent me. end quote

quitter@lazyboydotcom, you don’t fool me. You don’t live in a vacuum. Have you ever considered getting involved? Write to The White House? Work for President Trump in 2020? You are on OL expressing and perhaps influencing the world, so why NOT work on that government public policy?

Become activist@OLdotcom. Just don't riot.

Peter

[Peter]

Ba’al wrote: One's basic urges and basic sexual preferences are "wired in". end quote

Agreed. The science supports that conclusion.

And “Wild Things” who engage in anything sexual . . . with anybody . . . do not disprove the science.

Peter

[BaalChatzaf]

3 minutes ago, Peter said:

Greg wrote: However, besides my vote I'm completely powerless to implement government public policy. I did nothing to create the bloated bureaucracy which exists today. I am not responsible for what the government is now. It does not represent the values by which I live. It does not represent me. end quote

quitter@lazyboydotcom, you don’t fool me. You don’t live in a vacuum. Have you ever considered getting involved? Write to The White House? Work for President Trump in 2020? You are on OL expressing and perhaps influencing the world, so why NOT work on that government public policy?

Become activist@OLdotcom. Just don't riot.

Peter

Greg should realize that the property and income tax he pays,  promote and enable that which he despises.  That is taxation for you.  It makes us all accomplices to our own destruction....

[moralist]

58 minutes ago, Peter said:

Greg wrote: However, besides my vote I'm completely powerless to implement government public policy. I did nothing to create the bloated bureaucracy which exists today. I am not responsible for what the government is now. It does not represent the values by which I live. It does not represent me. end quote

quitter@lazyboydotcom, you don’t fool me. You don’t live in a vacuum. Have you ever considered getting involved? Write to The White House? Work for President Trump in 2020? You are on OL expressing and perhaps influencing the world, so why NOT work on that government public policy?

Become activist@OLdotcom. Just don't riot.

Peter

Peter, I was happy to donate money to Trump's election campaign and if he runs again I'll do it again.

I don't live in a vacuum. I am actively involved in working to improve my local community which is within my personal sphere of influence and personal responsibility.

My point that there is no such thing as a collective political solution, because the majority of people living in the US are unproductive government parasites. They are responsible for creating the huge government bureaucracy in their own image. I can't change how other people have already chosen to live. I can only choose how I live, and I followed the Galt's Gulch model. Living by Galt's Gulch ethical values protects me from the government created by others.

There are only individual personal solutions, and I have made my own choice to be a valuable asset to my community.

 

Greg

[moralist]

1 hour ago, BaalChatzaf said:

Greg should realize that the property and income tax he pays,  promote and enable that which he despises.  That is taxation for you.  It makes us all accomplices to our own destruction....

The only accomplice to your own destruction is you, Bob.  

You're a government parasite.

Greg

[Peter]

32 minutes ago, moralist said:

The only accomplice to your own destruction is you, Bob.  

You're a government parasite.

Greg

Bob is an honorable retiree. I worked for the Army and wore the uniform. Do you want to slam ALL government workers? How is Ba'al any different?

Peyton Manning Football analogy: hike, yadda, Omaha, yadda, hike. Scramble Greg, the Feds are blitzing! I see Tom Brady’s wife is hen pecking him and told him to stop talking politics back in November. Stifle it Giselle. Let your hero go to the White House the next time, you fine piece of  . . .  edit. fine piece of work, not ass.

Greg also wrote: I can only choose how I live, and I followed the Galt's Gulch model. Living by Galt's Gulch ethical values protects me from the government created by others. end quote

Ethics are not a defensive wall to protect you from the opposing team, though I commend you for your ethical values, which I share. So you won’t get Social Security or a Medicare card or am I being too literal? I think I have twitted you before about this. No business license, don’t pay taxes? Obey the speed limit, even if you are in a hurry? If you are in seclusion or hiding then don’t answer or there may be a knock on your door, with Dana Sculley and Fox Mulder standing there.

I remember that libertarian book by the late, great Harry Browne, “How I Found Freedom in an Unfree World: A Handbook for Personal Liberty.” In it he talked about not getting stepped on by the leviathan and your thinking is much like his.

Peter

 

[moralist]

28 minutes ago, Peter said:

I worked for the Army and wore the uniform.

(shrug...) Big deal. So did I. In Vietnam.

Bob is the end product of government education... an amoral leech whose dependence makes his liberal government bureaucracy larger.

Greg 

[Peter]

Has anybody been watching “Designated Survivor” with Keefer Sullivan? It explores the morals of working for the government, after a near apocalypse. Good show.

And I remember, Greg. You said you were a helicopter guy. I was trying to get you to acknowledge the error in your statement. Does that apply to the State and County too?  Seriously, how does working for the government make you a leech? When I got out of school, I would have worked anywhere, and I still would if the pay was right and I wasn’t retired. Is there a moral divide in your mind between being in the military and “retiring” from the military and accepting a pension? There is no ethical breakdown if you work for the federal government. How about working for the CIA, the NSA, being a Congressman, or President? I have known a Federal food inspector who used to repair my lawn mower before his second or third retirement. Good, decent guy.

The only problem I can see is if you are getting some kind of crony graft, shady appointment, or those ‘endowments’ or whatever they call them. And why should Billy - Bob - Ba’al apologize or grovel?  

Peter  

[Wolf DeVoon]

8 hours ago, anthony said:

There's a long way between 'men' and 'man'. 'Man' is a metaphysical abstraction and standard. To be 'man' doesn't come automatically, merely because one possesses the biological human nature. Who can "exclude" anyone (e.g. homosexuals) who makes the choice to be 'man'? (or, staying with the parallel, to be 'American'?) They must be welcomed.

If I have to be group-specific, I have known a good proportion of homosexuals whom I believe have chosen such. I conjecture it is ~precisely because~ many have had to think much more seriously about what most hetero 'men' take for granted and have absorbed collectively: about what it is to be men - and 'man'. The same thinking as have any serious, although superficially strange, writers.

Shakes head. Maybe it's a uniquely American idea, title of a Thomas Paine book, The Rights of Man.

[Brant Gaede]

9 hours ago, anthony said:

There's a long way between 'men' and 'man'. 'Man' is a metaphysical abstraction and standard. To be 'man' doesn't come automatically, merely because one possesses the biological human nature. Who can "exclude" anyone (e.g. homosexuals) who makes the choice to be 'man'? (or, staying with the parallel, to be 'American'?) They must be welcomed.

If I have to be group-specific, I have known a good proportion of homosexuals whom I believe have chosen such. I conjecture it is ~precisely because~ many have had to think much more seriously about what most hetero 'men' take for granted and have absorbed collectively: about what it is to be men - and 'man'. The same thinking as have any serious, although superficially strange, writers.

It sure does come automatically. If honored, that makes exclusion legally impossible. If dishonored, groups and members thereof can be marginarized, dehumanized and even killed.

--Brant

[Brant Gaede]

10 hours ago, moralist said:

I completely agree with your qualifier, Brant.

However, besides my vote I'm completely powerless to implement government public policy. I did nothing to create the bloated bureaucracy which exists today. I am not responsible for what the government is now. It does not represent the values by which I live. It does not represent me.

But that's ok, because I don't need the government to represent me or my values. What I have discovered is that to the extent that I don't need the government in my life...

...not government education, not government debt relief, not government grants, not government loans, not government funding, not government benefits, not government employment, not government indemnification, not government healthcare... 

...to that exact same extent it leaves me alone to enjoy my life.

Here's an example: The liberal Democrat Governor, liberal Democrat State Senate, and the liberal Democrat State Assembly just raised the gasoline tax by 12 cents a gallon. This will cause inflation because gasoline or diesel is needed to transport and deliver most every product or service. They pegged the tax to the inflation it causes so that it can feed upon itself in a viscious cycle.

With the latest hike, the total state tax federal tax and sales tax and cap and trade fee on California gas is $1.12 per gallon. Right now regular is $2.75. So the gas is $1.63 and the tax is $1.12.

Now, I have absolutely no power to control either the price of gasoline or the cost of the taxes on it... however, I do have the power to control my response to it.

So this is what I have done. I established my business in our local town so that I don't need to be driving all over Los Angeles. We have a 40 mpg car. My work truck averages 25 mpg even fully loaded with tools and materials, and I use a 70 mpg motorcycle and a 100+ mpg scooter for grocery shopping, banking, and running errands.

So we need to use very little gas.

This is how to deal with situations over which I have no control. I creatively adapt so as not to become a helpless victim of the world around me.

Greg

That's not inflation, but it's not important if it is or isn't. That's because there'll be little effect on prices. If goods don't come into CA by truck they'll come in by rail. And it's easy to come into the state with full tanks and leave without putting more diesel in your semi. If you do need more to get to the border, just put in enough to get there. Local pick up and delivery to local stores and businesses is more of a problem with only slight additional effect, however. CA is an expensive State, but it's only a little more screwing on top of a lot of screwing.

--Brant

it's going to get a lot, lot worse

[moralist]

15 hours ago, Brant Gaede said:

 CA is an expensive State, but it's only a little more screwing on top of a lot of screwing.

We'll just have to agree to disagree on that one, Brant.

This latest California gas tax increase has no expiration date and will generate $5,200,000,000 MORE revenue per year in perpetuity. Also it will add even more to those billions every year because it's indexed to the inflation rate.

$5.2 billion is a lot of screwing.

But it will affect others a lot more than it could ever effect me. I'm protected because as a producer, I simply raise my rates fo cover the increase material transportation costs just like every other business does when their taxes increase.

The cost of government built into every product and service makes everything cost more.

 

Greg