Love and Friendships in the Modern World


Victor Pross

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Rich,

You walked right in to the trap of detouring the conversation away from ideas and toward discussing (and condemning) the motives of this poster or that. Sometime next week or next month, nobody even remembers this crap. But today, intelligent conversation gets stifled with it (and most likely it is the reason why people bait others, if anyone needs to see a motive).

I would like to get out of this place and into a good one.

I wonder if anyone has any thoughts on the issue at hand (which certainly is not the motives of why people post). I would be interested in reading them.

If I remember correctly, we were talking about romantic love.

Michael

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Michael-

I agree, that's the topic. I'm not up for a joust, but look-- everytime we go here, (heck, almost anywhere but mostly in this area or religion, it seems) Mr. Damage seems to find it necessary to relieve himself.

I used to know this guy that drove a bread truck. He had this weird habit, he couldn't stop, er, executing micturition in public places.

If you're going to let that go, I think the least we're all entitled to know is "why?" I think it's crap, and I called him out.

The whole putting someone on ignore thing; I just don't know why I find that generally such a dodge.

But you are right.

Wayne: if you want to tango, here you go: rengle6921@sbcglobal.net . I may or may not respond, you aggravate me.

No more here from me. I like the topic oh-so-much-better than what you brought to it.

Edited by Rich Engle
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It’s not the subject of romantic love on its own accord that attracts Wayne to this thread. It’s a combination of the subject and me...I believe. I could be wrong. :)

I would love to be able to discuss this subject with cool-headedness and rationality—and I’m fully able to keep the hemlock at the door --if treated with respect. I’m very interested in this topic and want to hear people’s views on it—without speaking of specific people. Maybe that’s a good idea.

I’m open to a general conversation and not necessarily limited to internet spawned romances. The whole issue of romantic love is interesting. Listen, I would like to hear what Wayne has to say about it. Anybody! I said that before, and I sincerely mean it. Wayne, please...you aren't an idiot [even though I don't understand your recent conduct] but there is a reason why I had long philosophical conversations with you. Bring that to the table here; let these people see the other side of you.

Let's play nice.

Edited by Victor Pross
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Here, maybe some more content will make for better discuss-o.

Anyone familiar with Nathaniel Branden's work on the subject might remember what was a very strong concept...that one of the strongest attributes is how each person acts as a "mirror" to the other; showing them, validating to them all their goodness (I'm taking this down real thin, NB obviously does a much more thorough job). So, there's what I'd call a uniquely strong affirmation happening. And, of course, a good romantic love relationship doing that also positively impacts self-esteem.

In practice, this is one of the most wonderful things in the world, for my dollar.

rde

Edited by Rich Engle
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Judith-

With all due respect, I don't have a clue what "scent", or "body language" has to do with love. At least not beyond some superficial level. What are you saying, "I really liked him(or her) fundamentally, but that damned Polo cologne was a real deal breaker."?!?

Body language is a major conveyor of sense of life. And fundamentally, sense of life is what attracts us to another person. And I don't believe that we can convey sense of life over the internet, or even over the phone. I do know that many people to whom I have been powerfully attracted in person have come across very differently over the internet, in ways that, if I had not known them in person, would not have attracted me. And I've known some people who were somewhat boring in person but who came across as quite interesting in their correspondence. Go figure.

In terms of scent, I'm sure it's subliminal. I don't know if it affects me or not. I do know that I don't care for colognes or obvious fake scents of any kind. But things like that can be negotiated. :)

I have some stories but one in particular story, an interesting one at that. I will post some of it but not all of it and it falls along the lines of meeting a man where there was no chemistry, no physical attraction when first meeting, wasn't a handsome guy, etc., but it followed later and that passion and chemistry was more intense than any other man I had met up to that point. It was a blind date. But long story short, the more I got to know him, his values, his interests, what we had in common, his ambition, how confident he was, his mind, and so on, he became extremely attractive, much chemistry, much passion. In the beginning when first meeting him, the chemistry, the passion, etc., was nonexistent. But as time went on and getting to know him better, the passion and chemistry later followed and was very intense.

I think too many people put too much stock on the physicality of the person, physical beauty, chemistry when they first meet, and they lose the big picture of what is truly important which is values, mirroring, common interests, how well they connect, etc. When I was younger, of course the first thing I was drawn to in a partner was how pleasing they were on the eyes, how much chemistry was there in the beginning. But as time went on and I got older, gained much more experience, I realized what was truly important in a relationship. I am not all that picky on how pleasing someone is to the eyes or even the chemistry when first meeting. All of these literally can be nonexistent in the beginning but can be gained 100 fold later on.

I agree completely with Angie on this. That's why I said earlier that I've never fallen for anyone that I found physically attractive. Let's face it, folks, the vast majority of people fall within the bell curve of "ordinary" in terms of looks -- and that includes many of the Hollywood people. A few people are beautiful, and a few people are ugly, but most people are simply ordinary. And the men I've fallen for have all been either ordinary-ordinary or on the plain side of ordinary. Not a single one of them has been someone you'd ever look at twice walking down the street. They've all been men that I'd never noticed until I started talking to them. AFTER I got to know them, I thought they were the most beautiful men in the world. And that they smelled wonderful. But it's a package deal. It includes the physical as well as the mental and the spiritual. I got to know the entire person, not just the internet persona. And how a person moves, and speaks, and how his face changes with changing emotions, and how the tone of his voice changes as he speaks and feels -- all of that is part of who he is, and I need to experience all of that to get to know him. Posture says a lot, too.

One of Nathaniel Branden's books -- it might have been "Honoring the Self" -- lists a number of nonverbal signals indicating how a person feels about himself. If a man wrote the most beautiful imaginable notes, and spoke beautifully on the phone, and then I met him and discovered that he walked around looking like a deflated balloon with no light in his eyes, and looking as if he expected someone to hit him at any moment, I'd be hideously disappointed.

And none of this has anything to do with conscious or intentional deception; even if all communication were made with the best of intentions with respect to honesty, such things can happen. Sense of life is everything, and it transcends even philosophical, political, and religious differences. It goes to WHY we believe what we believe, and what we do about it.

Judith

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I agree with you, Angie.

And it's OK that some have voiced concerns. Maybe what is being questioned is what motivated those concerns? Dunno.

Hi, Rich

I understand voicing concerns and so forth. It's just some things I read I was expecting much of the same of what happened last time and this is what was and is getting very tiresome and old. That's why I said, "Here we go again," the same ole thing from last time.

Judith,

In my personal experience with several individuals so far, a person's sense of life can most definitely be conveyed through the written word or over the phone, especially if there is a situation going on in that person's life where most others would react somewhat negatively to it or would stress out, etc. I won't go into details now with it because I don't have much time but a person's optimism and to what degree, how well they can handle a situation, how happy they are can be communicated very easily through emails and definitely over the phone. But right now, I am limited on time and will get back to this later as I do want to talk about it and to offer my experiences with it.

Angie

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To add yet another example, a third internet friendship I developed was done by instant messaging and e-mail. We got to know each other quite well. On the rare occasions when we met in person, I discovered that he was something of a conversational bully -- constantly interrupting, dominating the conversation, etc., not out of malice but out of abundant enthusiasm and extroversion (I'm pretty introverted). It was a minor issue, since we were mainly intellectual friends and we rarely met in person. In our online relationship, I felt very much seen and heard, because I had all the time in the world to compose my thoughts, and I knew that he read them carefully and responded to them thoughtfully. In person, however, I felt cut off quite frequently and often didn't get a chance to get a word in edgewise. Had it been a romance, that would have been a show stopper.

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Guest Damage Inc.
I said that before, and I sincerely mean it. Wayne, please...you aren't an idiot [even though I don't understand your recent conduct] but there is a reason why I had long philosophical conversations with you. Bring that to the table here; let these people see the other side of you.

Let's play nice.

Right now I'm pressed for time but I wanted to acknowledge your request. I'll post some thoughts on love and play nice later this evening.

Wayne S

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Judith-

As long as you use Angel perfume anything can be negotiated. ;)

I agree that body language conveys ones sense of life. Where I disagree is that people, such as myself and Lydia, or Angie and Victor can't know sense of life without witnessing how each eats a Big Mac. If one or both parties are being deceptive, then yes we can be fooled when we have not witnessed such acts. I have no reason to believe that either Angie or Victor is being deceptive. Not to each other nor to themselves.

I do however know that Angie is an absolute animal when eating a Big Mac. But, I've also heard that Victor is into that sort of thing.

Edited by Jody Gomez
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Jody, it’s funny that you mention Big Macs. Angie and I planned a date long ago--and we were discussing the sensual erotica and romance behind the Happy Meals. The sheer idea of watching Angie munching into this tasty morsel has me quivering with desire—but if she slurps the vanilla shake the whole love affair is off! Really, I can do better than that.

Edited by Victor Pross
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I agree that body language conveys ones sense of life. Where I disagree is that people, such as myself and Lydia, or Angie and Victor can't know sense of life without witnessing how each eats a Big Mac. If one or both parties are being deceptive, then yes we can be fooled when we have not witnessed such acts. I have no reason to believe that either Angie or Victor is being deceptive. Not to each other nor to themselves.

Again, I want to emphasize that none of what I'm saying has anything to do with deceit, either conscious or unconscious. I'm simply relating the kinds of experiences I've had and describing what I need to get a sense of what someone is like and who someone is.

I don't doubt for a minute that Victor and Angie and you and Lydia and Michael and Kat experienced what you/they did. I don't doubt that it's possible. All I'm saying is that I, personally, have had these disorienting experiences and that if I, in the future, were to find myself powerfully attracted to someone based on internet interactions, I'd want to meet in person as soon as possible so that I could get to know the nonverbal aspects of that person before things went any further.

I also find that I interpret a person's internet writings differently and more fully when I've met that person. Some of the people in this forum I've met, and it adds an entirely different dimension to how I can interpret what they write here. I can add tone of voice, expression, etc. to what they write, and it greatly reduces the chance of misunderstanding.

Judith

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Guest Damage Inc.
It’s not the subject of romantic love on its own accord that attracts Wayne to this thread. It’s a combination of the subject and me...I believe. I could be wrong. :)

I would love to be able to discuss this subject with cool-headedness and rationality—and I’m fully able to keep the hemlock at the door --if treated with respect. I’m very interested in this topic and want to hear people’s views on it—without speaking of specific people. Maybe that’s a good idea.

I’m open to a general conversation and not necessarily limited to internet spawned romances. The whole issue of romantic love is interesting. Listen, I would like to hear what Wayne has to say about it. Anybody! I said that before, and I sincerely mean it. Wayne, please...you aren't an idiot [even though I don't understand your recent conduct] but there is a reason why I had long philosophical conversations with you. Bring that to the table here; let these people see the other side of you.

Let's play nice.

To Victor, playing "nice" means insinuating that I'm an idiot. Claiming that people here haven't seen my intelligence on this issue (even though, Kevin, presented some of the same essential points I've already raised)

demonstrates Victor's unwillingness to allow for honest difference of opinion. He has to hide his insults because he wants the appearance of playing nice.

As to the question: what do I think of romantic love? Romantic love involves a recognition of our values and our sense of life (what's also referred to, loosely, as "clicking") in another person we are sexually attracted to. I agree with what Ayn Rand says in ITOE, love can be measured. Someone can have our Objectivist sense of life without explicitly sharing our philosophy. Falling in love with this type of person is possible. The intensity would depend on the degree of shared sense of life, values, and our past experiences which help shape who we are. Ideally, of course, having it all - the shared sense of life, and the shared values, etc - would mean being in love with our soul mate. I'll end this post with this interesting quote.

"Marriage as a long conversation. When marrying, one should ask oneself this question: Do you believe that you will be able to converse well with this woman into your old age? Everything else in marriage is transitory, but the most time during the association belongs to conversation."

(Friedrich Nietzsche, Human, All-Too Human)

Wayne Simmons

Edited by Damage Inc.
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Thanks Wayne.

I love this quote from Nietzsche, and it’s hard to imagine that such a line would come from him. I most certainly agree with him. Many of the things in a life-long marriage may fade or dissipate—such as the sexual acrobatics and the freshness of the “honeymoon’ stage, to say nothing of youth. But a strong and enduring relationship, it’s very true, will be founded on communication, the ability to converse. Angie knows what a great emphasis I place on communication. Oy, she'll tell you. It’s becoming my mantra. But it's all for good reason: At the end of the road I see Angie and I, hand-in-hand, blabbering away in between the odd kiss here and there. ;)

Victor

Edited by Victor Pross
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Yes, the quote was good, Wayne, as well as your own content (although by no means do I think Victor was questioning your intelligence; it clearly had more to do with things outside of that).

The quote was apt and well-timed for me, because Kat and I (my Kat, by coincidence MSK and I both have Kats!) were discussing this very thing over a couple of beers. We had dined at a regular spot the week before, a quiet intimate place on the corner of my street that's great for couples, and had noticed a pair there who had clearly been married for a long time; maybe 3 decades were I to guess... And, Lordy, I have rarely seen such silence and misery over dinner... Total silence for the hour we were there, no sign of stopping. Yikes! And there we are, of course, conversing non-stop other than to eat and drink. And, something else-- ever see people that really don't have smiles? Meaning, down to the musculature; permanently downturned lips-- it was like they grew into it over time. Chilling, man... why bother?

Kat and I really never stop talking. Sometimes, we have to force ourselves to stop just so we can go to sleep, and then we both wake up in the middle of the night and it starts up again... Wouldn't trade it for the world!

So, thanks for the quote, Wayne-- I shared it with her. Nietzsche, who'd a thunk it?

Edited by Rich Engle
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Kat and I really never stop talking. Sometimes, we have to force ourselves to stop just so we can go to sleep, and then we both wake up in the middle of the night and it starts up again... Wouldn't trade it for the world!

Now that’s more romantic than all the chocolates and silk stockings in the world. A meeting of the minds is a physical turn-on. What a romantic man you are turning out to be, Rich, it must be all those love songs over the years. They are finally catching up to you. ;)

Edited by Victor Pross
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Thanks, Victor!

I dunno about the love songs-- my ex-wife was my writing partner for the last 3 years and that certainly didn't work out too well... :nuke: <---best simplest description of how it ended :sick:

But see, without that, there would be no this. The best thing that ever happened in my life rose out of the worst thing that ever happened in my life.

Yesterday, Kat also asked me if, had we met X years ago, things would have worked out the same. I really had to think on that one. It came down to my then-personality, which involved a lot more abrasion. I had a basic scorched-earth policy when it came to arguing with anyone about anything. On the Internet there was no end to my flamethrowing and things interpersonal were no exception. On the other hand, our essences remain our essences, and her temperament never suffered from the kind of combativeness formerly found in mine-- meaning, she might have set me straight sooner than I ended up setting myself straight.

Maybe. Surely she is powerful enough in that way. But, given my style and mannerisms, she might have fled the scene. I did not distinguish how winning battles and losing wars worked. I did not understand that being "right," having the "truth" does not give one carte blanche to run over, disrespect human beings as if they were no more than containers of ideas. I did not know, as Nathaniel Branden puts it more or less, that no one has ever reached the heights of glory by being told they are rotten. And, I'm not so sure I had enough awareness in me, enough vision to see/feel her as I do now. So, between those things, I told her probably not, due to pilot incompetence/operator error on my part.

I definitely understand the position of the embittered, the internally angry person, having been one for the greater part of my life. She, on the other hand, suffered horrors of which I cannot even speak, and remained completely unscathed. Why, I asked her? "I just don't hold onto things very long. I guess it's in my nature, something that keeps me able to enjoy life." Huh...

Conclusion: Neither of us are determinists, but it happened precisely at the time it was supposed to happen. That is the reality of it. I guess we were just thinking fondly about more years we could've had together, hindsight being 20 and all...

Edited by Rich Engle
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God help us. If Rich can find love, and Angie can find love then what is the world coming to. We should all get together and a have a first annual conference of those who know what love means, and know that we've found it. Kat and Michael should host, and fund it. Though it might be confusing having two Kats there. Ciro should do the cooking.

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Jody, you sound as if it is surprising that Angie could find love! Hell, I’ve said it before: To know Angie is to love her. It’s easy that Angie would find love—any guy would fall for her. What is surprising is that this jewel fell in love with a crazy renegade maverick like me --that is truly amazing. Hee-hee!

Edited by Victor Pross
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God help us. If Rich can find love, and Angie can find love then what is the world coming to. We should all get together and a have a first annual conference of those who know what love means, and know that we've found it. Kat and Michael should host, and fund it. Though it might be confusing having two Kats there. Ciro should do the cooking.

Do you hear that M and Kat? This is a great idea. Of course, any idea that includes somebody else funding it sounds good to me. And I look forward to tasting Ciro's cooking. Angie, is it a date? Rich, you going? ;)

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Victor-

I'll put kidding aside, and say, yes, Angie could walk by a wall and have it fall in love with her. The good news is that she knows what love is and knows what it means to give her love. That is why I trust that you are one okay individual despite all that Angie has said about you.

As for Rich, I just think he got lucky. ;) I keed, I keed-Rich deserves it, and I'm glad he is among those of us who have found it.

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Michael has now shifted all the weight upon Ciro. Not only must he cater, but he must do it pro bono! Works for me.

Edited by Jody Gomez
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I'll put kidding aside, and say, yes, Angie could walk by a wall and have it fall in love with her. The good news is that she knows what love is and knows what it means to give her love. That is why I trust that you are one okay individual despite all that Angie has said about you.

Thanks Jody. I consider myself one lucky man. Now I truely know what those damn poets are talking about. :smile:

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