Elon Musk's career

[BaalChatzaf]

Have a look here:  

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elon_Musk#Career

 

He does government business with NASA.  That is because only NASA  lofts satellites in the U.S.   

 

Here is the blurb:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SpaceX

 

Musk's company and one or two other private firms are currently developing rocket engines better than NASA along with Martin Thiokol and JPL  have been able to produce.  Musk's ambition is to make space missions into a profitable private business.   Musk as developed reusable rocket vehicles,  something that NASA has not. 

 

All the other Musk enterprise are privately funded. 

 

Musk also has patents.  How many patents does that stubby fingered wonder Donald Trump have?  

 

Musk has also made his Tesla patents open to the public for free.  That is definitely value added to the U.S. economy.  If Musk's company succeeds in its production of new energy storage cells (not a sure thing, but a worthy goal)  it will make  solar and wind generation of electrical power feasible (at long last!)  for industrial economies.  Time will tell on that one.   Musk is about in the same position as was Edison in his day.  What Edison didn't invent,  he financed. 

 

What technological wonders  has Donald Trump wrought???????

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Robert Stadler, but not as good.

Michael

[BaalChatzaf]

2 minutes ago, Michael Stuart Kelly said:

Robert Stadler, but not as good.

Michael

Nonsense.  He is a technician  first who later became an enterprising capitalist.  And his successes will leave us all richer.   But there is no point bringing politics into it.  He is ineligible to be President.   Now consider a man like Ed Land who invented an effective economical polarizer  and instant photography.   He is my hero capitalist.  And there are Doctors Sabin and Salk  who  invented  effective vaccinations against Polio.   By the way neither made a cent off of it.  The let the patent  be open to the public.  Their motive was to stop the disease, and that they did.  Those are two inventors who never became capitalists.  But they were my benefactors and those of my children and grandchildren.   If you are not old enough to remember Polio Hell ever summer you will not comprehend what they did.  If you are old enough, then say "thank you".

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

3 hours ago, BaalChatzaf said:

But there is no point bringing politics into it.

Bob,

Then why did you in the other thread?

 

(Just messin' with you...  )

Michael

[BaalChatzaf]

7 hours ago, Michael Stuart Kelly said:

Bob,

Then why did you in the other thread?

 

(Just messin' with you...  )

Michael

How about that?  I did something pointless....

[Brant Gaede]

17 hours ago, BaalChatzaf said:

Have a look here:  

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elon_Musk#Career

 

He does government business with NASA.  That is because only NASA  lofts satellites in the U.S.   

 

Here is the blurb:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SpaceX

 

Musk's company and one or two other private firms are currently developing rocket engines better than NASA along with Martin Thiokol and JPL  have been able to produce.  Musk's ambition is to make space missions into a profitable private business.   Musk as developed reusable rocket vehicles,  something that NASA has not. 

 

All the other Musk enterprise are privately funded. 

 

Musk also has patents.  How many patents does that stubby fingered wonder Donald Trump have?  

My "capitalist" is prettier than your "capitalist"?

I don't know about Musk's rocket engines, but he's genius gaming the entire economic-political system as it is.

--Brant

maybe he's more like the "Match King" than any other Rand character

[BaalChatzaf]

30 minutes ago, Brant Gaede said:

My "capitalist" is prettier than your "capitalist"?

I don't know about Musk's rocket engines, but he's genius gaming the entire economic-political system as it is.

--Brant

maybe he's more like the "Match King" than any other Rand character

 He is also producing.  There are actually Tesla electric automobiles running out there.  And his company has successfully launched  reusable  rockets that cost a tenth of what government produced rockets cost.  Something is coming out the other end of the pipe.  Keep in mind that American aircraft manufacturers were subsidized by government mail contracts and military contracts.  If you have taken a jet propelled commercial flight of late, it was put in the air by way of government contracts.  

Henry Ford "gamed the system"  when his factories produced  tanks for the U.S. 

Musk and Henry Ford  oversaw genuine technological advances.  How many technological  advances has that stubby fingered barbarian, Donald Trump,  financed????

Look here to see what has come out of the other end of Musk's pipeline:  http://www.biography.com/people/elon-musk-20837159#an-earnest-entrepreneur

Donald Trump fits perfectly in a box containing Parker Brother's  Monopoly (TM) game.   Shuttered casinos on the Boardwalk of Atlantic City is just about his speed. 

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

39 minutes ago, BaalChatzaf said:

Musk and Henry Ford  oversaw genuine technological advances.  How many technological  advances has that stubby fingered barbarian, Donald Trump,  financed????

Bob,

Probably his greatest: dismantling the social engineering of the behavioral technocrats of the endless-war-for-profit political machine and restoration of a different kind of social engineering from an individualist viewpoint in America.

That, to you, may not look like much, but think of the damage Lenin, Mao, Hitler, etc., have done--not just as dictators, but as social engineers. And they were the heirs to the social engineering ideas of others, just like today's politicians are.

Do you want to see how far along we have become to going into the abyss? America was headed in a direction where someone like Elon Musk could be seen in the mainstream--morally--as a capitalist hero instead of a sleazy crony insider who liked to tinker with technology. The sheer ordinariness of this belief shows just how damaged the thinking of individuals has become through all that goddam social engineering. It's like a country-wide smoldering fire that's just waiting for the right gust of wind to come along to become a raging inferno. Hello dictatorship.

And if you want the science behind that social engineering (and the flare up to dictatorship for that matter), I can give you gobs of research. 

Trump doesn't look pretty, but he's the fireman.

Just look at you, a social zombie walking into the flames of political destruction with a swagger of superiority because science is your siren's call. The later stage (which is starting here in America, but essentially not here yet) is where you look perplexed when the science is used on you and your family by the people you helped to get power.

Baa... baa... Nice sheeple... Oh, you don't want to go "baa" on cue? Go to that line leading to the slaughterhouse.

Where have I seen that movie before?  

Michael

[BaalChatzaf]

2 hours ago, Michael Stuart Kelly said:

Bob,

Probably his greatest: dismantling the social engineering of the behavioral technocrats of the endless-war-for-profit political machine and restoration of a different kind of social engineering from an individualist viewpoint in America.

That, to you, may not look like much, but think of the damage Lenin, Mao, Hitler, etc., have done--not just as dictators, but as social engineers. And they were the heirs to the social engineering ideas of others, just like today's politicians are.

Do you want to see how far along we have become to going into the abyss? America was headed in a direction where someone like Elon Musk could be seen in the mainstream--morally--as a capitalist hero instead of a sleazy crony insider who liked to tinker with technology. The sheer ordinariness of this belief shows just how damaged the thinking of individuals has become through all that goddam social engineering. It's like a country-wide smoldering fire that's just waiting for the right gust of wind to come along to become a raging inferno. Hello dictatorship.

And if you want the science behind that social engineering (and the flare up to dictatorship for that matter), I can give you gobs of research. 

Trump doesn't look pretty, but he's the fireman.

Just look at you, a social zombie walking into the flames of political destruction with a swagger of superiority because science is your siren's call. The later stage (which is starting here in America, but essentially not here yet) is where you look perplexed when the science is used on you and your family by the people you helped to get power.

Baa... baa... Nice sheeple... Oh, you don't want to go "baa" on cue? Go to that line leading to the slaughterhouse.

Where have I seen that movie before?  

Michael

But a scientific sheep.   Trump is hot air and bad manners.  I hope he is elected.  When we have to pick up the pieces of his ruination,  I will be happy to say I told you so.  I feel superior because I am smarter than 95 percent of the human race (right now).  50 years ago I was even smarter,  but not particularly wise.

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

21 minutes ago, BaalChatzaf said:

... but not particularly wise.

Bob,

I'll take you at your word.

 

Michael

[william.scherk]

3 hours ago, Michael Stuart Kelly said:

4 hours ago, BaalChatzaf said:

Musk and Henry Ford  oversaw genuine technological advances.  How many technological  advances has [...]Donald Trump,  financed????

Probably his greatest: dismantling the social engineering of the behavioral technocrats of the endless-war-for-profit political machine and restoration of a different kind of social engineering from an individualist viewpoint in America.

I think Bob is assessing the products available under Trump stewardship -- and products available under Musk stewardship. In an earlier post another thread, a puzzling implication that Musk is outright evil (if I understood this correctly):

On 7/6/2016 at 5:50 AM, Michael Stuart Kelly said:

[T]he crony of cronies? The insider of insiders? The Great Pretender?

[Musk] doesn't exist without government funding that he then calls capitalism. I don't think he could build a Tinker Toy car without a government paycheck.[...]

You seem to be intent on choosing outright evil over all others.

Are there facts on the table? 

Quote

America was headed in a direction where someone like Elon Musk could be seen in the mainstream--morally--as a capitalist hero instead of a sleazy crony insider who liked to tinker with technology.

I know Musk as the developer of space transport and exploration technologies (SpaceX) and advanced vacuum/linear-induction transport (HyperLoop).

 In the first, his companies  test a rocket capable of returning under power to the earth -- capable of being landed and re-used.  This may be the result of a 'tinker' and not otherwise remarkable in some eyes. 

One line of disgust with all of Musk's teche is that he takes advantage of every favourable government loan, grant, subvention or structural subsidy or tax benefit in amassing the expertise of his teams.  That is surely a fair cop and subject for critique:  how much was loaned and how much paid back? How much of the success of Tesla motors, or his large solar-array installation/management company -- was  based on 'deals' that we cannot examine? Is such information public?

Good stuff for investigation and commentary, if one is making a case that Musk and his enterprises are akin to Evul.  I'd like to see a fair-minded argument that makes a structural case for the 'crony of cronies,' the Prince of Sleaze and Cronies.

Perhaps if that case was made intelligently and with care, the distaste for Musk's business career would be better understood.  

-- a counter-argument that contrasts Musk accomplishments with Trump accomplishments could then follow.  An argument that contrasts the promise of Musk technologies with the Trump promise could also be made.

If one wanted to assess loans, consumer grants, subventions, tax credits and other benefits that were available to the two men during their respective careers in business and invention ...  we could figure out if only one of them has to wear the cloak of shame.  Maybe each takes ultimate advantage (Deals!) of all the benefits available to an inventive person. 

An interesting parallel is the Daddy's Money kickstart that both men got -- though the differences are instructive.

I don't think that Michael is alone is finding Musk odious and/or an evil force for bad things. But a rational argument for the stance has not been made. I would venture that there is a baby and some bathwater. 

Quote

[T]this belief shows just how damaged the thinking of individuals has become through all that goddam social engineering. It's like a country-wide smoldering fire that's just waiting for the right gust of wind to come along to become a raging inferno. Hello dictatorship.

Musk?  How does this relate to Bob's comparison?  

Bob believes that Musk is a symbol of dynamism and applied genius -- he has added power and personal force of will to developing 'next generation' technology -- adding to the might of American futures. And maybe Bob deprecates the golf courses and hotels and resorts and such that Trump has built. They are lovely and top of the class in luxury -- but they do bring new tools to the market.  A Trump steak is a steak, but a Musk rocket is not just a rocket, but a leap forward. I think that is the underlying and arguable point.

Is it possible that the landmarks and breakthroughs in transport and energy will add to the technological advantage that America holds and needs to hold. 

None of this gainsays a careful case made for  the Musk == Evul Crony King bill of charges.

Quote

 

And if you want the science behind that social engineering (and the flare up to dictatorship for that matter), I can give you gobs of research. 

It might just be me, but I think research is always welcome -- where it is cogent, valid, reliable and true within its scope. So I would expect a gob or two of research on Musk's gaminess and stench of sleaze. 

Quote

Just look at you, a social zombie walking into the flames of political destruction with a swagger of superiority because science is your siren's call. The later stage (which is starting here in America, but essentially not here yet) is where you look perplexed when the science is used on you and your family by the people you helped to get power.

:"Just look at you, a social zombie"  ...

Musk.  Musk is the evul one. 

Quote

Baa... baa... Nice sheeple... Oh, you don't want to go "baa" on cue? Go to that line leading to the slaughterhouse.

This sounds worse than it reads.  I read NASA as being the slaughterhouse, so.

Michael, with respect, this is not your best rational argument. It is still unclear to me what your specific charges are against Musk -- even if we know that you think of Bob as a zombie sheep helping bring on American apocalypse.  It is just calling ugly people names to my eyes. 

What is the Trump equivalent of  Musk's products and services?  Moreover, will a Trump administration try to clip the wings of Tesla, SpaceX and Hyperloop. Will the bad things Musk has done be punished in the new America?  Do you encourage the crucible of invention and progress, or do you hobble it?

 

Edited July 7, 2016 by william.scherk
Grrrammar, tone, pith.

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

William,

Did you read Atlas Shrugged? Do you know who Robert Stadler is in the book?

That example perfectly illustrates my beef with Elon Musk.

My concern is not with Musk's science. (Stadler's science was great in AS, too.) It's with the fact that he serves very bad people to get money to do his science. And he masks it as productive capitalism. He pretends this is free market. That's horseshit. He's a toady for bad (and sometimes good) people because they give him money if he can plant a wet one in the right places.

What do you think bad people do when they get more powerful toys? Musk doesn't give a damn. He's got his and using mouthwash to get rid of the taste. 

It boils down to something very obvious. People who pay for something should be the ones to decide whether they want it.

Elitists don't think this way. They want to use your money for their means. And they don't bother themselves with where taxes come from. That's just not important to their conceit.

Michael

[PDS]

1 hour ago, BaalChatzaf said:

But a scientific sheep.   Trump is hot air and bad manners.  I hope he is elected.  When we have to pick up the pieces of his ruination,  I will be happy to say I told you so.  I feel superior because I am smarter than 95 percent of the human race (right now).  50 years ago I was even smarter,  but not particularly wise.

I'm confused. 

Is being smarter than 95% of the human race a claim worth repeating, especially when you're talking to MSK, William, and Jonathan--no slouches in that department themselves? 

You specifically claim this makes you feel superior, but you're using the claim more like an appeal to authority.    You think you're shooting a bullet out of your gun and a little tiny flag droops out instead. 

Now, if you were/are smarter than 95% of the people on this forum---that would be worth bragging about...!

[PDS]

3 hours ago, Michael Stuart Kelly said:

Bob,

Probably his greatest: dismantling the social engineering of the behavioral technocrats of the endless-war-for-profit political machine and restoration of a different kind of social engineering from an individualist viewpoint in America.

 

 

Has this restoration of occurred as of yet? 

Is so, I missed it. 

[william.scherk]

1 hour ago, Michael Stuart Kelly said:

William,

Did you read Atlas Shrugged? Do you know who Robert Stadler is in the book?

That example perfectly illustrates my beef with Elon Musk.

No, it doesn't illustrate anything of the sort. Your beef is made of filler, oats and slurry. To equate his career to the fictional Stadler's seems bizarre to me, bizarre and unwarranted. I think you could at least draw up a list of sins, specific sins, for the rest of us to examine. 

In any case, you do not answer or take note of any of my observations or questions.  

Making an analogy to fictional evil is not argument, Michael.  

Quote

My concern is not with Musk's science.

So far your discussion brings up no accounting of the illicit nature of Musk's activities -- besides a rhetoric of denigration.   It is still wholly unclear what exactly he has done that a good person would not do.  What would a moral, Objectivishly-sound engineer-genius do with his drive and ambition to create new products?

I fear you don't actually know much  about Elon Musk's career and promise , that you might have  incorporated slurs into a myth.  But, I am happy to be proven wrong.  Please bring some details to give heft to the Hate.

Quote

(Stadler's science was great in AS, too.) 

Really? Greatly destructive, perhaps?  Greatly corrupted, greatly mismanaged and put to evil purposes, without oversight, checks or balances?  

Quote

It's with the fact that he serves very bad people to get money to do his science.

Hmmm. Fact. Fact. Well, that is a start. You can put a factual name or two to the Very Bad People, no?  And you can point to a sum of monies  from these Very Bad People, yes?

Otherwise this is just mush.

Quote

And he masks it as productive capitalism. He pretends this is free market. That's horseshit. He's a toady for bad (and sometimes good) people because they give him money if he can plant a wet one in the right places.

Okay.  What is the worst of his pretensions, and how has it cost society, democratic governance or/and free enterprise? He is a toady, you say. Well, that could be true, but I don't know what unnamed folks you are talking about.. There is no way to check your statement for truth, since it is over-general.  

Like, give us a path to knowledge, Michael, please.  Where has he placed a wet one? What person, company? When? How?  Why? 

Quote

What do you think bad people do when they get more powerful toys? Musk doesn't give a damn. He's got his and using mouthwash to get rid of the taste. 

It boils down to something very obvious. People who pay for something should be the ones to decide whether they want it.

What do I think bad people do when they get more powerful toys?  Well, it depends on the toy and the bad person.  Who are the bad people with the toys? I can't read your mind and identify these entities.
 

So, People who pay for something ... maybe The Taxpayer, the voter, a businessman, a satellite provider ... should decide whether it  -- the thing -- is wanted.  Yes.  I agree. 

But what purchase are you talking about in particular?  Is it a Tesla car (paid for in part by federal/state tax credits)?  Should the taxpayer or representatives query closely any law or policy that tends to favour low-emission vehicles? Surely they should do so. Same with the systematic inducements paid in various ways to consumers and producers of solar-arrays who contract with utilities. What laws provide such inducements, and who wrote them? Moreover, who will delete such subsidies and sweetheart policies favouring the solar industries to redress a systemic corruption?

Again, maybe you have NASA in mind -- NASA pays SpaceX for rocket and delivery contracts. Should you the taxpayer question why SpaceX gets a deal? Should representatives or agents of justice examine all such dealings with NASA for political machinations or special favours? Indubitably. 

It is some mental work, but it pays in knowledge.

Quote

Elitists don't think this way. They want to use your money for their means. And they don't bother themselves with where taxes come from. That's just not important to their conceit.

It could be that you are not about to make a persuasive case for joining the Hate Club for Musk.  I wish you would fill in some of the blanks and make your case more substantial.  It is that simple. 

Maybe I can forestall a disappointing reaction, and just ask a question I would like answered, Eg: What particular action that Musk took strikes you as egregious, as a clear example of what you deplore?.Or, what are top three worst acts of the monster that is Musk?

In other words, in other words, making some specific charges will help us try your case against Elon Musk. 

Edited July 7, 2016 by william.scherk
Specifically, specificity. Gobs of research. Tone.

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

52 minutes ago, PDS said:

Has this restoration of occurred as of yet? 

Is so, I missed it.

David,

It's not an on-off switch since human thinking and culture are involved. But the sheer amount of restoration considering the short amount of time is breathtaking.

Here are a few of the deprogramming items that Trump has managed to inject into the mainstream (but there are a whole bunch more):

1. PC language nowadays is a tool of manipulation, not good manners.
2. The USA loss of jobs is directly tied to stupid international trade deals.
3. Most of the terrorists are Muslims, especially those who hate a lot, so there is where we should concentrate a good part of our attention.
4. Being rich--the kind anyone can attain with hard productive work--is cool.
5. When the USA helps out another country, even with the USA military, the USA should be remunerated by that country (instead of sweetheart deals for crony companies).
6. The elites (politicians, pundits and intellectuals) are a pack of morons because they have done a lot of stupid shit that harms a lot of people.
7. Victimization of oppressed classes is no longer the predominant moral core story of America.

I could go on, but believe me, the current mainstream discussions (starting when Trump came on the primaries scene) are nothing like the mainstream discussions of the last 30 years or so.

It's like Trump single-handedly ripped the marker off an Overton Window measure set in stone that was slowly drifting in one direction (as is normal) and slammed it back down about 5 gigantic notches in the other direction.

Michael
 

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

19 minutes ago, william.scherk said:

What particular action Musk took strikes you as egregious, as a clear example of what you deplore.

William,

I don't have time to play 50 gotchas about Musk, so let's just say I'm an idiot and you are smart, but I still think Musk is a sleaze.

As to the quote above, if you can't understand that basing one's business model on government funding, but calling it capitalism, is the thing I most object to, we have no real basis for discussion anyway.

It's almost like I'm a bigot or something, huh?

Definitely stoopid...

Michael

[Brant Gaede]

7 hours ago, BaalChatzaf said:

 He is also producing.  There are actually Tesla electric automobiles running out there.  And his company has successfully launched  reusable  rockets that cost a tenth of what government produced rockets cost.  Something is coming out the other end of the pipe.  Keep in mind that American aircraft manufacturers were subsidized by government mail contracts and military contracts.  If you have taken a jet propelled commercial flight of late, it was put in the air by way of government contracts.  

Henry Ford "gamed the system"  when his factories produced  tanks for the U.S. 

Musk and Henry Ford  oversaw genuine technological advances.  How many technological  advances has that stubby fingered barbarian, Donald Trump,  financed????

Look here to see what has come out of the other end of Musk's pipeline:  http://www.biography.com/people/elon-musk-20837159#an-earnest-entrepreneur

Donald Trump fits perfectly in a box containing Parker Brother's  Monopoly (TM) game.   Shuttered casinos on the Boardwalk of Atlantic City is just about his speed. 

Okay. Now, compare Elon Musk with Ayn Rand.

Let's see good you really are.

--Brant

just what is your opinion of her, BTW?--just by herself

[BaalChatzaf]

1 hour ago, Brant Gaede said:

Okay. Now, compare Elon Musk with Ayn Rand.

Let's see good you really are.

--Brant

just what is your opinion of her, BTW?--just by herself

Musk is a technologist and Rand was not.  There is no comparison possible.  Musk knows mathematics thoroughly and Rand did not.  No comparison.  

Robert Heinlein once wrote those who cannot cope with mathematics are not fully human.  Musk can and does.  Rand --- ??????

 

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Ha!

That's why the mathematician supreme in Atlas Shrugged (Robert Stadler) was able to design weapon technology for monsters to kill with.

He was fully human!

At least Oppenheimer (the atom bomb science dude) had the good sense to read the Bhagavad Gita trying to understand his own humanity after he realized that he had "become death, the destroyer of worlds." Science without a conscience didn't work too well to keep him from that legacy. In fact, devotion to science for government assured him of it. 

Oppenheimer eventually realized how badly he had screwed up, but it was too late. The hand that trained him kept him on a short leash and said, "Bad doggie," when he barked too much. So he stopped barking over time and his leash was let out a little as he heard, "Good doggie!"

(Bad doggie = losing security clearance and government positions. Good doggie = some friggin' award or other Kennedy gave him.)

Imagine what a mind like that could have built if he had worked on the free market to enhance human life instead of working for bad people (i.e., those who live for power over others).

Michael

[BaalChatzaf]

1 hour ago, Michael Stuart Kelly said:

Ha!

That's why the mathematician supreme in Atlas Shrugged (Robert Stadler) was able to design weapon technology for monsters to kill with.

He was fully human!

At least Oppenheimer (the atom bomb science dude) had the good sense to read the Bhagavad Gita trying to understand his own humanity after he realized that he had "become death, the destroyer of worlds." Science without a conscience didn't work too well to keep him from that legacy. In fact, devotion to science for government assured him of it. 

Oppenheimer eventually realized how badly he had screwed up, but it was too late. The hand that trained him kept him on a short leash and said, "Bad doggie," when he barked too much. So he stopped barking over time and his leash was let out a little as he heard, "Good doggie!"

(Bad doggie = losing security clearance and government positions. Good doggie = some friggin' award or other Kennedy gave him.)

Imagine what a mind like that could have built if he had worked on the free market to enhance human life instead of working for bad people (i.e., those who live for power over others).

Michael

Much of what Musk does is free market.  He bootstrapped his original fortune in the free market.  Pay-Pal  I think it was. 

Musk is not a mathematician or a theorist.  He was trained as an applied physicists and his interests have be mostly practical. 

Musk is not the head of the National Science Institute.  He is a private capitalist.  

And having some government contracts does not make him less a capitalist.  He produces stuff.  Not like the bankers,  stock brokers, bond hawkers and financial types who manipulate symbols.  Musk has  hands on contact with TECHNOLOGY.   Something mostly missing on Wall Street. 

Musk is the current Edison surrogate.   But there will be others.  In the mean time he will make a U.S. rocket ship that can reach ISS and we won't have to rent from the Russians any more. 

[SteveWolfer]

23 minutes ago, BaalChatzaf said:

He produces stuff.  Not like the bankers,  stock brokers, bond hawkers and financial types who manipulate symbols.

I programmed computers - that's manipulating symbols.  I was also a psychotherapist and the 'stuff' I produced there wasn't made of atoms, but it made a difference between misery and happiness for some people.

I not going to saying anything against Musk (don't know anything about him).  Rocket ships and electric cars certainly have quite a bit of glamor, but the market place serves all actual demand, even things like drinking straws, or the services of fortune tellers, or yo-yos, or massage chairs.  And I'm all for people who produce stuff, and for a free market.  But I do want to reiterate that some 'stuff' isn't made of atoms.  There can be real economic value to other 'stuff' - like an agreement - say  a merger - or funding like IPOs, the sale of bonds, etc.  A free market measures the worth of all voluntary transactions.  A culture may have biases for or against certain kinds of voluntary transactions, but then those of us schooled in rational evaluations can have a say on which biases make sense.

 

[BaalChatzaf]

1 hour ago, SteveWolfer said:

I programmed computers - that's manipulating symbols.  I was also a psychotherapist and the 'stuff' I produced there wasn't made of atoms, but it made a difference between misery and happiness for some people.

I not going to saying anything against Musk (don't know anything about him).  Rocket ships and electric cars certainly have quite a bit of glamor, but the market place serves all actual demand, even things like drinking straws, or the services of fortune tellers, or yo-yos, or massage chairs.  And I'm all for people who produce stuff, and for a free market.  But I do want to reiterate that some 'stuff' isn't made of atoms.  There can be real economic value to other 'stuff' - like an agreement - say  a merger - or funding like IPOs, the sale of bonds, etc.  A free market measures the worth of all voluntary transactions.  A culture may have biases for or against certain kinds of voluntary transactions, but then those of us schooled in rational evaluations can have a say on which biases make sense.

 

Rockets also loft satellites which have plenty of use.  Without reliable rockets we would still be using 30 baud  equipment. 

[Jon Letendre]

He gets the rockets from Russia.

But why compare to Trump? Is Trump competing with Musk, with rockets he buys from North Korea, or something?

Is Musk running for president?

How many roofs has Musk put over living human being's heads? Trump is in the tens of thousands, Musk, zero, so I guess Musk really sucks hard at the thing I've decided is the big and only thing that counts. Thanks god he isn't running for president. The has-never-sheltered-anything-piece -of-shit.

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

58 minutes ago, Jon Letendre said:

He gets the rockets from Russia.

But why compare to Trump? Is Trump competing with Musk, with rockets he buys from North Korea, or something?

Is Musk running for president?

Jon,

This whole Musk thing comes from a pearl of wisdom imparted to us by Bob in another thread. In teaching us ignorant fools the folly of valuing Trump, even a smidgen, since in his pondered ponderances, Trump is evil (a lesser evil maybe, but still evil), and Bob's stated view is that he is too far above us evil-choosers to be anything but good, he graced us with the following (from here):

If it were Elon Musk  running for President I would not hesitate to favor him.

I found the prospect of a Musk presidency without merit due to his exaggerated thirst for government funding and then calling it capitalism, so Bob started this thread to impart more wisdom to us.

Except somewhere around here he just said he is not good at wisdom.

Man, that gets confusing.

 

Michael