"Muslim" discussion in the US vis a vis in Israel

[Marc]

Posted Today, 12:17 AM

Wolf DeVoon, on 27 Dec 2015 - 12:16 AM, said:

Adam, I always read your posts with care and full consideration.

As I try to read yours when I do not get buried in charts and graphs which sometimes do not come with what each line means or how all of the data dump holds together.

And this was in the post that I responded to:

Quote

People like Trump because he leaves so many policy doors open and wants to throw out illegals, bar Muslims from entry.

This is just specious.

Throw out illegals? I'm sorry, they are illegal, they have no standing in law here. Additionally, as his son, as a spokesman for the campaign clearly explained that those illegals who are here in the US with no standing in law go back to their point of origin, then they will re-enter if we want them.

That is the current law and that is very specific.

And it is simple. Three steps...

Step one (1) you have six months from date x to self deport, or, register for a one way passage, paid for by the US taxpayer, to their point of origin with a micro-chip and an ID number to begin re-entry after medical and skills screening;

Step (2) if you have not self deported or arranged for your registered re-entry, we have some surprises in store for you.

Step (3) see Step one (1).

As to the Muslim statement, The Donald clearly stated that it would be temporary until we figure out what is going on...there are a number of dead people in California who would love to cast their vote on this issue...

gee they can't now can they.

Righteous anger Wolf...that is something to fear when the people as meant in our founding documents is behind that anger...

A...

• Like This
• I

I remember a thread here where some folks really got their panties in a bunch .

The usual stance bout how Israel this , Israel that , Israel is wrong , Palestinian issue , Israeli Arabs and their place in Israeli society ( and they love Israel btw ) .

So if this discussion about deportation , walls , and micro chips was simply about Israel and not where you live be it Jersey , Brooklyn or Beverly Hills or Toronto for that matter , I ask if your " stance " would remain the same .

My feeling is ( and this thread will prove it , if anyone dares ) is that the stance would do a 180 and state :

The Palestinians who kill inside Israel proper , the " right of return " ( God Forbid ) or Arab "refugees " , the condemnation about Jews building a wall to protect themselves , and etc .

Any takers wish to compare ?

Jewish blood , Muslim blood , Christian blood and the blood of every person in the world - for me - is the same .

Thoughts ?

[Marc]

Trump gets to build a wall , but Netanyahu cannot

Trump gets to deport illegal Muslims , but Israel needs to let illegal Arabs in .

Trump gets to protect America citizens , but Jews in Israel do not get to protect themselves .

Curious how opinions change when its " me " in the United States , and " Jews in Israel "

[Selene]

Trump gets to build a wall , but Netanyahu cannot

Trump gets to deport illegal Muslims , but Israel needs to let illegal Arabs in .

Trump gets to protect America citizens , but Jews in Israel do not get to protect themselves .

Curious how opinions change when its " me " in the United States , and " Jews in Israel "

Not me.

Bibi has the absolute right as a sovereign nations publicly elected executive to do each one of those actions.

Bibi went to the same school in Philly that Mark Levin did.

A...

[Marc]

Trump gets to build a wall , but Netanyahu cannot

Trump gets to deport illegal Muslims , but Israel needs to let illegal Arabs in .

Trump gets to protect America citizens , but Jews in Israel do not get to protect themselves .

Curious how opinions change when its " me " in the United States , and " Jews in Israel "

Not me.

Bibi has the absolute right as a sovereign nations publicly elected executive to do each one of those actions.

Bibi went to the same school in Philly that Mark Levin did.

A...

Who is Mark Levin ? Keep hearing his name

[anthony]

• Like This
• I

I remember a thread here where some folks really got their panties in a bunch .

The usual stance bout how Israel this , Israel that , Israel is wrong , Palestinian issue , Israeli Arabs and their place in Israeli society ( and they love Israel btw ) .

So if this discussion about deportation , walls , and micro chips was simply about Israel and not where you live be it Jersey , Brooklyn or Beverly Hills or Toronto for that matter , I ask if your " stance " would remain the same .

My feeling is ( and this thread will prove it , if anyone dares ) is that the stance would do a 180 and state :

The Palestinians who kill inside Israel proper , the " right of return " ( God Forbid ) or Arab "refugees " , the condemnation about Jews building a wall to protect themselves , and etc .

Any takers wish to compare ?

Jewish blood , Muslim blood , Christian blood and the blood of every person in the world - for me - is the same .

Thoughts ?

Marc,

This has appeared to me a problem of non-conceptualisation, before anything else. It is hard to perceptualize the scale and size of that sliver of that country so far away, as it is to imagine living in the intimate proximity of several enemies. Israel is only a little larger than New Jersey and could be drowned in Lake Michigan - so one has to apply 'measurement omission' to conceptually match up the American continent and Israel. 100 meters matters a great deal in Israel, strategically for a start. Its easy to say: "Give them the land" from a country with so much of it. And without an existential threat.

Then comes the western Left who really can't tell cause from effect -"who started it"- and which party has been over all hugely more rationally moral for themselves --as well as to Palestinians' lives -- who otoh, would perversely throw any chance of a good life away to get ultimate revenge on Jews and take all Israel, even after they are dead. Self-evidently, rational self-interest and the Left are like oil and water. To suffer and sacrifice oneself is viewed ambivalently, if not respectfully in Europe especially.

I notice from many on FaceBook that a sort of historical revisionism has set in, conveniently evading that Israel came into being legally and legitimately, and fought self-defensive wars to continue to exist. The one democracy in the M.E. with a high rating on the Human Rights Index, is the one most hammered - by Liberals!

Muslim radicals are smart enough to know these things, and to play on the fact that in a climate of fear and appeasement the West is more likely to make of Israel a sacrifice to totalitarian Islam.

[Marc]

• Like This
• I

I remember a thread here where some folks really got their panties in a bunch .

The usual stance bout how Israel this , Israel that , Israel is wrong , Palestinian issue , Israeli Arabs and their place in Israeli society ( and they love Israel btw ) .

So if this discussion about deportation , walls , and micro chips was simply about Israel and not where you live be it Jersey , Brooklyn or Beverly Hills or Toronto for that matter , I ask if your " stance " would remain the same .

My feeling is ( and this thread will prove it , if anyone dares ) is that the stance would do a 180 and state :

The Palestinians who kill inside Israel proper , the " right of return " ( God Forbid ) or Arab "refugees " , the condemnation about Jews building a wall to protect themselves , and etc .

Any takers wish to compare ?

Jewish blood , Muslim blood , Christian blood and the blood of every person in the world - for me - is the same .

Thoughts ?

Marc,

This has appeared to me a problem of conceptualisation, before anything else. It is hard to perceptualize the scale and size of that sliver of that country so far away, as it is to imagine living in the intimate proximity of several enemies. Israel is only a little larger than New Jersey and could be drowned in Lake Michigan - so one has to apply 'measurement omission' to conceptually match up the American continent and Israel. 100 meters matters a great deal in Israel, strategically for a start. Its easy to say: "Give them the land" from a country with so much of it. And without an existential threat.

Then comes the western Left who really can't tell cause from effect -"who started it"- and which party has been over all hugely more rationally moral for themselves --as well as to Palestinians' lives -- who otoh, would perversely throw any chance of a good life away to get ultimate revenge on Jews and take all Israel, even after they are dead. Self-evidently, rational self-interest and the Left are like oil and water. To suffer and sacrifice oneself is viewed ambivalently, if not respectfully in Europe especially.

I notice from many on FaceBook that a sort of historical revisionism has set in, conveniently evading that Israel came into being legally and legitimately, and fought self-defensive wars to continue to exist. The one democracy in the M.E. with a high rating on the Human Rights Index, is the one most hammered - by Liberals!

Muslim radicals are smart enough to know these things, and to play on the fact that in a climate of fear and appeasement the West is more likely to make of Israel a sacrifice to totalitarian Islam.

Very agreed .

My issue though is that certain folks on this board spoke out against Israel and all those Israeli issues like refugees , terrorists , walls , and many etc's yet when the same terrorists attack the US , I see these same posters stating the opposite now simply because an attack happens in California , Paris or etc and not in Tel Aviv

[Selene]

• Like This
• I

I remember a thread here where some folks really got their panties in a bunch .

The usual stance bout how Israel this , Israel that , Israel is wrong , Palestinian issue , Israeli Arabs and their place in Israeli society ( and they love Israel btw ) .

So if this discussion about deportation , walls , and micro chips was simply about Israel and not where you live be it Jersey , Brooklyn or Beverly Hills or Toronto for that matter , I ask if your " stance " would remain the same .

My feeling is ( and this thread will prove it , if anyone dares ) is that the stance would do a 180 and state :

The Palestinians who kill inside Israel proper , the " right of return " ( God Forbid ) or Arab "refugees " , the condemnation about Jews building a wall to protect themselves , and etc .

Any takers wish to compare ?

Jewish blood , Muslim blood , Christian blood and the blood of every person in the world - for me - is the same .

Thoughts ?

Marc,

This has appeared to me a problem of conceptualisation, before anything else. It is hard to perceptualize the scale and size of that sliver of that country so far away, as it is to imagine living in the intimate proximity of several enemies. Israel is only a little larger than New Jersey and could be drowned in Lake Michigan - so one has to apply 'measurement omission' to conceptually match up the American continent and Israel. 100 meters matters a great deal in Israel, strategically for a start. Its easy to say: "Give them the land" from a country with so much of it. And without an existential threat.

Then comes the western Left who really can't tell cause from effect -"who started it"- and which party has been over all hugely more rationally moral for themselves --as well as to Palestinians' lives -- who otoh, would perversely throw any chance of a good life away to get ultimate revenge on Jews and take all Israel, even after they are dead. Self-evidently, rational self-interest and the Left are like oil and water. To suffer and sacrifice oneself is viewed ambivalently, if not respectfully in Europe especially.

I notice from many on FaceBook that a sort of historical revisionism has set in, conveniently evading that Israel came into being legally and legitimately, and fought self-defensive wars to continue to exist. The one democracy in the M.E. with a high rating on the Human Rights Index, is the one most hammered - by Liberals!

Muslim radicals are smart enough to know these things, and to play on the fact that in a climate of fear and appeasement the West is more likely to make of Israel a sacrifice to totalitarian Islam.

Very agreed .

My issue though is that certain folks on this board spoke out against Israel and all those Israeli issues like refugees , terrorists , walls , and many etc's yet when the same terrorists attack the US , I see these same posters stating the opposite now simply because an attack happens in California , Paris or etc and not in Tel Aviv

Can you provide one name since I more than likely did not pay any attention to someone arguing that Israel has no right of self defense...

I am not like our President Barack O'bama.

A...

[Marc]

• Like This
• I

I remember a thread here where some folks really got their panties in a bunch .

The usual stance bout how Israel this , Israel that , Israel is wrong , Palestinian issue , Israeli Arabs and their place in Israeli society ( and they love Israel btw ) .

So if this discussion about deportation , walls , and micro chips was simply about Israel and not where you live be it Jersey , Brooklyn or Beverly Hills or Toronto for that matter , I ask if your " stance " would remain the same .

My feeling is ( and this thread will prove it , if anyone dares ) is that the stance would do a 180 and state :

The Palestinians who kill inside Israel proper , the " right of return " ( God Forbid ) or Arab "refugees " , the condemnation about Jews building a wall to protect themselves , and etc .

Any takers wish to compare ?

Jewish blood , Muslim blood , Christian blood and the blood of every person in the world - for me - is the same .

Thoughts ?

Marc,

This has appeared to me a problem of conceptualisation, before anything else. It is hard to perceptualize the scale and size of that sliver of that country so far away, as it is to imagine living in the intimate proximity of several enemies. Israel is only a little larger than New Jersey and could be drowned in Lake Michigan - so one has to apply 'measurement omission' to conceptually match up the American continent and Israel. 100 meters matters a great deal in Israel, strategically for a start. Its easy to say: "Give them the land" from a country with so much of it. And without an existential threat.

Then comes the western Left who really can't tell cause from effect -"who started it"- and which party has been over all hugely more rationally moral for themselves --as well as to Palestinians' lives -- who otoh, would perversely throw any chance of a good life away to get ultimate revenge on Jews and take all Israel, even after they are dead. Self-evidently, rational self-interest and the Left are like oil and water. To suffer and sacrifice oneself is viewed ambivalently, if not respectfully in Europe especially.

I notice from many on FaceBook that a sort of historical revisionism has set in, conveniently evading that Israel came into being legally and legitimately, and fought self-defensive wars to continue to exist. The one democracy in the M.E. with a high rating on the Human Rights Index, is the one most hammered - by Liberals!

Muslim radicals are smart enough to know these things, and to play on the fact that in a climate of fear and appeasement the West is more likely to make of Israel a sacrifice to totalitarian Islam.

Very agreed .

My issue though is that certain folks on this board spoke out against Israel and all those Israeli issues like refugees , terrorists , walls , and many etc's yet when the same terrorists attack the US , I see these same posters stating the opposite now simply because an attack happens in California , Paris or etc and not in Tel Aviv

Can you provide one name since I more than likely did not pay any attention to someone arguing that Israel has no right of self defense...

I am not like our President Barack O'bama.

A...

You are the google champion of OL in my opinion , and I mean that with reverence because you find great stuff and I love it !!!!!

I recall that things got hot and heavy and our fearless leader kept jumping in being an excellent moderator .

I am not going to fan the flames and bring up any poster and his/her comments from time gone by .

You are a very smart dude , you find stuff when you desire to , and you read a sentence only when you desire as well .

Search box , top right corner my man

[Selene]

• Like This
• I

I remember a thread here where some folks really got their panties in a bunch .

The usual stance bout how Israel this , Israel that , Israel is wrong , Palestinian issue , Israeli Arabs and their place in Israeli society ( and they love Israel btw ) .

So if this discussion about deportation , walls , and micro chips was simply about Israel and not where you live be it Jersey , Brooklyn or Beverly Hills or Toronto for that matter , I ask if your " stance " would remain the same .

My feeling is ( and this thread will prove it , if anyone dares ) is that the stance would do a 180 and state :

The Palestinians who kill inside Israel proper , the " right of return " ( God Forbid ) or Arab "refugees " , the condemnation about Jews building a wall to protect themselves , and etc .

Any takers wish to compare ?

Jewish blood , Muslim blood , Christian blood and the blood of every person in the world - for me - is the same .

Thoughts ?

Marc,

This has appeared to me a problem of conceptualisation, before anything else. It is hard to perceptualize the scale and size of that sliver of that country so far away, as it is to imagine living in the intimate proximity of several enemies. Israel is only a little larger than New Jersey and could be drowned in Lake Michigan - so one has to apply 'measurement omission' to conceptually match up the American continent and Israel. 100 meters matters a great deal in Israel, strategically for a start. Its easy to say: "Give them the land" from a country with so much of it. And without an existential threat.

Then comes the western Left who really can't tell cause from effect -"who started it"- and which party has been over all hugely more rationally moral for themselves --as well as to Palestinians' lives -- who otoh, would perversely throw any chance of a good life away to get ultimate revenge on Jews and take all Israel, even after they are dead. Self-evidently, rational self-interest and the Left are like oil and water. To suffer and sacrifice oneself is viewed ambivalently, if not respectfully in Europe especially.

I notice from many on FaceBook that a sort of historical revisionism has set in, conveniently evading that Israel came into being legally and legitimately, and fought self-defensive wars to continue to exist. The one democracy in the M.E. with a high rating on the Human Rights Index, is the one most hammered - by Liberals!

Muslim radicals are smart enough to know these things, and to play on the fact that in a climate of fear and appeasement the West is more likely to make of Israel a sacrifice to totalitarian Islam.

Very agreed .

My issue though is that certain folks on this board spoke out against Israel and all those Israeli issues like refugees , terrorists , walls , and many etc's yet when the same terrorists attack the US , I see these same posters stating the opposite now simply because an attack happens in California , Paris or etc and not in Tel Aviv

Can you provide one name since I more than likely did not pay any attention to someone arguing that Israel has no right of self defense...

I am not like our President Barack O'bama.

A...

You are the google champion of OL in my opinion , and I mean that with reverence because you find great stuff and I love it !!!!!

I recall that things got hot and heavy and our fearless leader kept jumping in being an excellent moderator .

I am not going to fan the flames and bring up any poster and his/her comments from time gone by .

You are a very smart dude , you find stuff when you desire to , and you read a sentence only when you desire as well .

Search box , top right corner my man

Well I did not think you would share a name, just testing and being lazy myself.

[anthony]

Muslim radicals are smart enough to know these things, and to play on the fact that in a climate of fear and appeasement the West is more likely to make of Israel a sacrifice to totalitarian Islam.

Very agreed .

My issue though is that certain folks on this board spoke out against Israel and all those Israeli issues like refugees , terrorists , walls , and many etc's yet when the same terrorists attack the US , I see these same posters stating the opposite now simply because an attack happens in California , Paris or etc and not in Tel Aviv

There were a few, but were either moderated by MSK or left.

I think it's a little hopeful of you to expect to see anyone come forward and say,

"I admit I had double standards. Now I know what it's like, I better understand the Israeli problems"...

hah!

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

There were a few, but were either moderated by MSK or left.

Tony,

I don't recall moderating anyone for anti-Israel rhetoric (except for one guy and that was temporary), although I have tended to make their preaching uncomfortable for them.

So most of them have left of their own volition.

Ironically, the only bigoted preacher-type I recall moderating for nonstop tirades was a dude talking against Islam. Everything bad happened in this guy's world because of Islam. If a dog farted, it was because Islam made him do it. If a person sneezed, it was proof that Islam was evil. There was no topic where everything did not become a prompt for him to bash Islam or bash those who would not go along with him. Oh, he made a few posts that did not deal with Islam, but the number was so small you could count them on the fingers of one hand. He posted a lot when unchecked.

If there had been some intellect stuff to his comments, my decision to moderate him would have been hard. But as it was, all he did was constantly bash Islam and bash those who disagreed with him. At best, he would repeat a line or two from Robert Spencer.

I tried different approaches, but nothing worked to stop him from polluting the discussions and killing thread after thread (people tended to stop posting once he showed up), so I finally said his comments about Islam, good, bad or indifferent, were no longer welcome on OL.

Although I have let through posts of his that did not deal with Islam (there were only a couple), I did not let through those that dealt with Islam (there were many). So he got bored and I haven't seen him around in a long time.

Posting and interacting with others is not his thing. Bashing Islam in public is.

If I ever come across someone who posts about Israel in the same fashion, he or she will get the same treatment.

Michael

[anthony]

Michael,

Right, I didn't include the full context (the irrationality and prejudice a couple of posters displayed). I am actually very sorry to see opponents of Israel leave, even the vituperative ones, since I much prefer everything in the open that I and others may understand their premises, to know what's happening in the minds of the community-at-large. For once, I'd like to hear original arguments from somebody! Always, I find they don't acknowledge the easily available facts and recent history, or will not evaluate the facts in terms of moral self interest, or try to muddy the waters with isolated and untypical events - usually all three. Israel/Palestine is such a complex and fraught subject, it has to be approached with perspective and proportion. But like you, It's not my intention to drive dissenters from debate. I know it's unlikely I will persuade them, too.

[Marc]

• Like This
• I

I remember a thread here where some folks really got their panties in a bunch .

The usual stance bout how Israel this , Israel that , Israel is wrong , Palestinian issue , Israeli Arabs and their place in Israeli society ( and they love Israel btw ) .

So if this discussion about deportation , walls , and micro chips was simply about Israel and not where you live be it Jersey , Brooklyn or Beverly Hills or Toronto for that matter , I ask if your " stance " would remain the same .

My feeling is ( and this thread will prove it , if anyone dares ) is that the stance would do a 180 and state :

The Palestinians who kill inside Israel proper , the " right of return " ( God Forbid ) or Arab "refugees " , the condemnation about Jews building a wall to protect themselves , and etc .

Any takers wish to compare ?

Jewish blood , Muslim blood , Christian blood and the blood of every person in the world - for me - is the same .

Thoughts ?

Marc,

This has appeared to me a problem of conceptualisation, before anything else. It is hard to perceptualize the scale and size of that sliver of that country so far away, as it is to imagine living in the intimate proximity of several enemies. Israel is only a little larger than New Jersey and could be drowned in Lake Michigan - so one has to apply 'measurement omission' to conceptually match up the American continent and Israel. 100 meters matters a great deal in Israel, strategically for a start. Its easy to say: "Give them the land" from a country with so much of it. And without an existential threat.

Then comes the western Left who really can't tell cause from effect -"who started it"- and which party has been over all hugely more rationally moral for themselves --as well as to Palestinians' lives -- who otoh, would perversely throw any chance of a good life away to get ultimate revenge on Jews and take all Israel, even after they are dead. Self-evidently, rational self-interest and the Left are like oil and water. To suffer and sacrifice oneself is viewed ambivalently, if not respectfully in Europe especially.

I notice from many on FaceBook that a sort of historical revisionism has set in, conveniently evading that Israel came into being legally and legitimately, and fought self-defensive wars to continue to exist. The one democracy in the M.E. with a high rating on the Human Rights Index, is the one most hammered - by Liberals!

Muslim radicals are smart enough to know these things, and to play on the fact that in a climate of fear and appeasement the West is more likely to make of Israel a sacrifice to totalitarian Islam.

Very agreed .

My issue though is that certain folks on this board spoke out against Israel and all those Israeli issues like refugees , terrorists , walls , and many etc's yet when the same terrorists attack the US , I see these same posters stating the opposite now simply because an attack happens in California , Paris or etc and not in Tel Aviv

Can you provide one name since I more than likely did not pay any attention to someone arguing that Israel has no right of self defense...

I am not like our President Barack O'bama.

A...

You are the google champion of OL in my opinion , and I mean that with reverence because you find great stuff and I love it !!!!!

I recall that things got hot and heavy and our fearless leader kept jumping in being an excellent moderator .

I am not going to fan the flames and bring up any poster and his/her comments from time gone by .

You are a very smart dude , you find stuff when you desire to , and you read a sentence only when you desire as well .

Search box , top right corner my man

Well I did not think you would share a name, just testing and being lazy myself.

Well sir , you thought correctly . You aint lazy !!!!!!!!! You just wanna avoid finding it cause that will answer your question and prove my point !

[Selene]

Well I did not think you would share a name, just testing and being lazy myself.

Well sir , you thought correctly . You aint lazy !!!!!!!!! You just wanna avoid finding it cause that will answer your question and prove my point !

Frankly, Marc, I do not really care about that thread,,,I have had to deal with Israel haters all my life.

I know my position and it is pro-Israeli.

A...

[Marc]

Well I did not think you would share a name, just testing and being lazy myself.

Well sir , you thought correctly . You aint lazy !!!!!!!!! You just wanna avoid finding it cause that will answer your question and prove my point !

Frankly, Marc, I do not really care about that thread,,,I have had to deal with Israel haters all my life.

I know my position and it is pro-Israeli.

A...

understood and appreciated .

[moralist]

Adam writes:

I am not like our President Barack O'bama.

He's Irish?

Greg