Muslims Who Stand Up To Islamists -- Karima Bennoune


Michael Stuart Kelly

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"By observing the dominance of the bureaucrats and the lack of any real opposition from We The People."

That's a highly appropriate application, Wolf... :smile:

There simply are NOT enough people in America who live by American values to create a small fiscally responsible government in their own image.

If there were... that government would already exist. But there aren't... so it doesn't... and there is absolutely NOTHING the dwindling American minority can do about it except to learn how not to become collateral damage from what's coming.

Greg

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Greg,

Your metaphor clunks in my ear.

A terrorist is not tamed to obey its master like a dog is.

I just can't imagine normal Muslims holding terrorists on a leash.

:smile:

Michael

Yeah, it's flawed. :wink:

The point is people who appear nice and who have mean dogs are not nice. There are a lot of Muslims who want a Caliphate and Sharia law, and they are the ones who only appear to be "nice" while tacitly nurturing and enabling the mean Rottweiler.

Greg

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Brant,

Moral equivalency in Greg's terms as I understand them is equating Allah with the Christian God.

His standard is his God is better than the other God. (Except he will say the "true God" or something like that instead of "his God." :smile: )

If that's not Greg's position, I'm sure he will correct me

Michael

Well, for me that's literally nothing with nothing. If he's speaking metaphorically it's not applicable to me. Today at least the Christian religion has it all over the Muslim except it has no balls any more. The default has become the secular.

--Brant

You are absolutely right, Brant.

Christianity is morally weak, because it has been feminized by liberalism. It's completely ovarian today, not a ball anywhere in sight.

This is what makes the Christians such easy pickings for the Islamic fascists.

Greg

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Muslims are living peacefully not because of Islam, but in spite of it.

Ah... the circularity of the bigot...

It never fails, Jews, blacks, Indians, Irish, Polacks, gays, women and on and on.

The good ones aren't good because of their character while being themselves. They are good in spite of themselves.

I always did love that argument.

Michael

Not "in spite of themselves". In spite of what their prophet wants. This was clearly visible on Australia's Insight program, in which supporters of ISIS were quite comfortable with what their prophet wanted of them, but other muslims in the audience were decidedly uncomfortable, even fearful.

In Islam, just as in every other religion, you have followers that run the gamut from "in name only", to those who take it consistently and fully to its logical end.

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Brant,

Moral equivalency in Greg's terms as I understand them is equating Allah with the Christian God.

His standard is his God is better than the other God. (Except he will say the "true God" or something like that instead of "his God." :smile: )

If that's not Greg's position, I'm sure he will correct me

Michael

That's accurate, Michael... except for the terms "his God" or "true God".

God by definition cannot be possessed, so it is impossible for Him to be "my God". Rather I freely chose to belong to Him. And as long as I act in harmony with moral law by doing what's right, everything works out for the good. :smile:

Greg

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I have a couple of friends who are Muslim so I personally know the truth that there are good Muslims. My point is that there are too few of them. [...] ...because there are too few good Muslims.

I would ask: how can we quantify? In other words how does Greg know the numbers of good and bad Muslims?

Very simple. By observing the dominance of the Islamic fascists and the lack of any real opposition from the Muslems. The Muslems who don't oppose the Islamic fascists are not good Muslems.

I don't know what you know. I know that Muslims in the USA denounce ISIS, and stand by their air force pounding the shit out of ISIS today at Mosul Dam.** I know that the governments and religious authorities such as they are have denounced ISIS, in every country with a Muslim majority: Indonesia, Malaysia, Egypt, Jordan, Iran, Iraq, Syria, Turkey, Pakistan, and so on.

What is odd in your aphorism is that it is oblique to the question. The right answer to how to quantify -- is not to go by feel, but to count. Your illogic steers you past this obvious step in understanding that there is strong opposition from the Muslim world to ISIS and its atrocities.

In the West, the major religious authorities or scholars of Islam have lined up to denounce ISIS. I won't post a lengthy list of instances, because it is just a fact that 'real opposition' registers in the real world (even if in a language you do not understand). If it doesn't register in your world, it is because you do not inquire, I think -- reason suggests your aphorisms need checking against the real world.

I can understand you having a breastplate of righteousness moment in reaction to the atrocities, and even understand how you might think you have a superior knowledge of all things, er Muslem, but I cannot countenance your ignorance.

Do you need a page of links and excerpts from speeches and videos and translations and citations of all the Muslims I have noted denouncing ISIS, Greg?

Perhaps you will admit an error, and go do your own hunt for Muslim voices you've heretofore missed. You might find the facts encouraging -- even if you have to give up a mistaken assumption.

Greg,

Your metaphor clunks in my ear.

A terrorist is not tamed to obey its master like a dog is.

I just can't imagine normal Muslims holding terrorists on a leash.

:smile:

Michael

Greg is unleashing the Wrath on Muslims as a whole in ignorance of what that hell that whole comprises. It is astonishing to me how someone can hold such an angry insistence on an untruth. That he doesn't welcome questions or criticism is another story.

___________________

** this PBS video is just a few hours out of date, and features Liz Sly, who is one of the best Mideast reporters in the region. She is close to the front.

Edited by william.scherk
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Another thing that strikes me -- where are the Muslims who reject ISIS in no uncertain terms? I can answer -- right here, right there (in the Australian TV Studio).

If we went out looking for Muslims who reject ISIS, or Islamic governments who reject ISIS, or religious authorities (such as they are) who reject ISIS -- and we will definitely find them -- does this count against assumption that this rejection is not enough?

There is an assumption that it is not enough? Given the advances that Jihadists have made since 9/11 I think it is axiomatic that it is not enough. There are only two options with these people, and that is to persuade them on Islamic grounds, or with a bullet. Muslims who reject, not ISIS, because ISIS is merely one jihad group, but the Jihad doctrines within their own religion that gives rise to all these groups, need to not just say "I don't agree with Jihadists". They need to persuade the Jihadists that they have the religion wrong. Failing that, if they truly do reject the Jihadists vision of Islam as it should be, they'll have to start using bullets alongside others who equally reject the tyranny of Muhammad.

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Still ignoring Egypt.

That's what haters do... ignore what doesn't fit their hate.

Once they can't ignore it, they either say it doesn't count, it's an anomaly or they come up with some boneheaded rationalization. My favorite is the circular definition thing...

Man, am I getting tired of repeating all this in answer to all that.

Hell. I thought we already went over it...

Yet the same crap keeps appearing without any new approach, argument or anything. Just repeteco ad nauseum.

That, I submit, is not philosophical discussion. And OL is a philosophy discussion board.

Michael

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I watched this on C-Span today. An excellent panel.

Mary Habeck is astoundingly knowledgeable about the Muslim history and population. She agrees with you Bill as to the majority/plurality of the populations of even the Jihadi groups reject ISIS.

She specifically refers to a significant Indonesia Jihadi group whose leader is in prison. His son broke with the father who endorsed ISIS and led most of the group to for a less "psychotic" group.

One of her most interesting sections is in the last 15 minutes wherein she analyzes the flat power structure of ISIS.

It works with one head this Abu-Bakr al-Baghdadi, the Mahdi who comes out of the dessert to establish the global caliphate with himself as the chief despot of the planet. He will force all people on the Earth to live under his Islamic truth and Sharia law. Here is a BBC profile of him http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-27801676

She points out that this is their starting position. She then makes the strong comparison that he is the new Hitler and ISIS are the new Nazi's, replete with extermination programs.

Whereas al Qaeda has numerous "deputies" which it is why it has been so difficult to eradicate. al Qaeda restructured its' structure according to documents captured after 9/11 that she analyzed.

The panel was strong on decapitation of him. As this article notes, he must have been listening to the President:

It seems Abu-Bakr al-Baghdadi has been listening to the president. A Kurdish official reportedly said on Friday that the Islamic State leader has left the Iraqi city of Mosul and has returned to Syria.

According to a report in the London-based Arabic news outlet Asharq al-Awsat, al-Baghdadi fled Iraq along with a convoy of ISIS militants.

Al-Baghdadi’s flight from Iraq may seem like welcome news, but that ISIS fighters have not abandoned their assault on Iraqi targets. As Ed Morrissey flagged on Friday, the Islamic State remains as ambitious as ever.

“According to our intelligence sources, Abu-Bakr Al-Baghdadi traveled to Syria as part of a convoy of 30 Hummer vehicles after fearing being targeted by US airstrikes,” [Kurdistan Democratic Party (KDP) spokesman Saeed Mamo] Zinni said. He added that Kurdish Peshmerga forces have been able to kill a number of ISIS senior leaders.

An informed source in Mosul, speaking to Asharq Al-Awsat on condition of anonymity, said that ISIS had killed all Yazidi men in the villages it had besieged around Sinjar after a deadline for them to convert to Islam expired. “[iSIS fighters also] raped the women and girls, and took the children to Mosul,” he added.

The source claimed that ISIS had recruited several young men from Mosul, and that many of the new recruits were sent to fight in the arid Jazeera region in Syria.

This is the lead in to the panel discussion.

Iraq is caught in the midst of a political, military, and humanitarian crisis. ISIS has routed Iraqi and Kurdish forces, captured vital infrastructure, and left a wake of death and destruction across the north. Instability within Iraqi government also increases. Prime Minister Nuri al-Maliki has ordered Iraqi military forces to seize government buildings, in response to parliamentary demands for him to step down, over his handling of the ISIS insurgency crisis. This power struggle could lead to the complete collapse of the Iraqi government, complicating U.S. support efforts in the region. With ISIS forces now spreading into Syria and Lebanon, an assessment of President Obama’s strategy in Iraq is necessary. Has the U.S. response been sufficient in addressing the threat thus far? What interests does the U.S. have in the region, and do they merit increased U.S involvement? What should be the President’s strategy going forward? Join us as our guest experts address these pressing questions.

http://www.youtube.com/embed/XT6mm9Nr_M4?

^^^^ I cannot figure out how to embed this. It is in the following link.

http://www.heritage.org/events/2014/08/iraq-strategy

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I don't know what you know. I know that Muslims in the USA denounce ISIS,

(shrug) ...while CAIR financially supports them in the USA with Muslim donations.

Al Qaeda, Boco Harem, Hamas, Hezbollah, Muslem Brotherhood, ISIS, and the rest would not even exist at all... if there were enough decent Muslims.

And as long as there aren't... those groups will continue to flourish.

Islamic fascist groups exist solely by the financial and political support of immoral Muslims.

Greg

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Explain it to me again, who are the insane fanatics?

Judaism has always held that people who are not Jews are obliged to follow the seven Noahide Laws; these are laws that the Oral Law derives from the covenant God made with Noah after the flood, which Judaism holds apply to all descendants of Noah, i.e., all living people... Orthodox Judaism holds that halakha is the divine law as laid out in the Torah (five books of Moses), rabbinical laws, rabbinical decrees and customs combined. The rabbis, who made many additions and interpretations of Jewish Law, did so only in accordance with regulations they believe were given for this purpose to Moses on Mount Sinai. Conservative Judaism holds that halakha is normative and binding, and is developed as a partnership between people and God based on Sinaitic Torah. [Wikipedia]

The more insulting terms for non-Jews are shiksa (feminine) and shkutz or sheketz (masculine). It may be gathered that these words are derived from the Hebrew root Shin-Qof-Tzade, meaning loathsome or abomination. http://www.mechon-mamre.org/jewfaq/gentiles.htm

When you approach a city to do battle with it you should call to it in peace. And if they respond in peace and they open the city to you, all the people in the city shall pay taxes to you and be subservient. And if they do not make peace with you, you shall wage war with them and you may besiege them. [Deuteronomy 20:10-12]

The nations are condemned for the depravity of their morals. And here is the point: they are so condemned by the God of Israel! It is His righteousness, be it observed, not His might or His glory or any other of the divine qualities prized at the time, which provides the ground of his supremacy. [Dennis Prager] http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/mono.html

Noachide commandments are binding on Gentiles, and that lack of knowledge does not excuse obligation... "Moses our teacher was commanded by God to compel the commandments to the Noachides. All who do not accept are killed." [Maimonides]... In situations where a Jew can literally compel observance of the law, that would be a biblical obligation... the moral relationship of the Jews to the nations of the world is similar to that of the heart to the rest of the body. http://www.jlaw.com/Articles/noach2.html

In the peace agreement between Jordan and Israel in 1994, Jordan conditioned its signature on inclusion of a clause which gave Amman a preferred status in future Israel-Arab talks about the Temple Mount. The clause ran counter to the view held by the Chief Rabbinate in particular and Orthodox Jewry as a whole that Israel had sole sovereign status. In its statement praising the peace agreement and the formal end of hostilities, the Chief Rabbinate Council added that "the prime minister had promised the rabbinate a place in the agreement... The Temple Mount and the place of the Temple are holy to the People of Israel, and the inner heart and prayers of the Jewish People. Our holy historical right is beyond question." http://www.jcpa.org/jpsr/s99-yc.htm

“The idea of two states is just unworkable,” Glick told her audience. She added that Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s adamant insistence that the Palestinian’s recognize Israel as the Jewish state is a deal breaker on which there is no route of negotiations or diplomatic nuance that will allow that demand to be circumvented. “This is not about fairness or justice for the Palestinian people,” she said, “It is about one thing and one thing only—the rejection of Israel.” Ms. Glick’s proposal eloquently and sensibly outlined in her book is for Israel to finally apply Israeli law to Judea and Samaria just as they did to East Jerusalem in 1967 and then to the Golan Heights when Menachem Begin was Prime Minister. http://5tjt.com/from-the-editor-two-state-nonsense/

The chief executive of Goldman Sachs, which has attracted widespread media attention over the size of its staff bonuses, says he believes banks serve a social purpose and are “doing God’s work.” http://dealbook.nytimes.com/2009/11/09/goldman-chief-says-he-is-just-doing-gods-work/?_php=true&_type=blogs&_r=0

Former Goldman executives who moved on to government positions include: Robert Rubin and Henry Paulson who served as United States Secretary of the Treasury under Presidents Bill Clinton and George W. Bush, respectively; Mario Draghi, President of the European Central Bank; Mark Carney, Governor of the Bank of Canada 2008–13 and Governor of the Bank of England from July 2013. [Wikipedia]

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Explain it to me again, who are the insane fanatics?

Sorry, Wolf... I don't subscribe to your religious faith in the leftist lie of moral equivalence.

I live right here in the present and not thousands of years ago in the dead past. And there is no comparison between the behavior of the Israelis today, and the behavior of the Palestinians.

Greg

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Sorry, Wolf... I don't subscribe to your religious faith in the leftist lie of moral equivalence.

Pshaw. Easy to show that fundamentalist Christians are equally nuts.

"Religion is a mental illness." [Laissez Faire Law, p.113]

There are a number of fundamentalist Christians that I know in the Home School movement and in other organizations that are far from nuts.

A...

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Now this infuriates me. I am sure I am the only idiot here who did not know about this connection between the leader of ISIS Abu-Bakr Al-Baghdadi

and President "war monger" O'bama..


It seems Abu-Bakr al-Baghdadi has been listening to the president. A Kurdish official reportedly said on Friday that the Islamic State leader has left the Iraqi city of Mosul and has returned to Syria.

According to a report in the London-based Arabic news outlet Asharq al-Awsat, al-Baghdadi fled Iraq along with a convoy of ISIS militants.

Al-Baghdadi’s flight from Iraq may seem like welcome news, but that ISIS fighters have not abandoned their assault on Iraqi targets. As Ed Morrissey flagged on Friday, the Islamic State remains as ambitious as ever.

“According to our intelligence sources, Abu-Bakr Al-Baghdadi traveled to Syria as part of a convoy of 30 Hummer vehicles after fearing being targeted by US airstrikes,” [Kurdistan Democratic Party (KDP) spokesman Saeed Mamo] Zinni said. He added that Kurdish Peshmerga forces have been able to kill a number of ISIS senior leaders.

Apparently, we had this psychotic in one the biggest of our Iraqi detention camps [Camp Bucca] in 2009 and released him??

“He said, ‘I’ll see you guys in New York,’” recalls Army Col. Kenneth King, then the commanding officer of Camp Bucca.

King didn’t take these words from Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi as a threat. Al-Baghdadi knew that many of his captors were from New York, reservists with the 306 Military Police Battalion, a unit based on Long Island that includes numerous numerous members of the NYPD and the FDNY. The camp itself was named after FDNY Fire Marshal Ronald Bucca, who was killed at the World Trade Center in the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks.

King figured that al-Baghdadi was just saying that he had known all along that it was all essentially a joke, that he had only to wait and he would be freed to go back to what he had been doing.

“Like, ‘This is no big thing, I’ll see you on the block,’” King says.

King had not imagined that in less that five years he would be seeing news reports that al-Baghdadi was the leader of ISIS, the ultra-extremist army that was sweeping through Iraq toward Baghdad.

“I’m not surprised that it was someone who spent time in Bucca but I’m a little surprised it was him,” King says. “He was a bad dude, but he wasn’t the worst of the worst.”

King allows that along with being surprised he was frustrated on a very personal level.

“We spent how many missions and how many soldiers were put at risk when we caught this guy and we just released him,” King says.

During the four years that al-Baghdadi was in custody, there had been no way for the Americans to predict what a danger he would become. Al-Baghdadi hadn’t even been assigned to Compound 14, which was reserved for the most virulently extremist Sunnis.

Remember O'bama did not want to send anyone to Gitmo...

A...

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I share your disgust, Adam...

It stacks up with setting free some of the most dangerous Islamic fascists in exchange for a rotten deserter.

Since removing the US military presence in Iraq, the country has been unraveling like a cheap suit.

Greg

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It stacks up with setting free some of the most dangerous Islamic fascists in exchange for a rotten deserter.

Greg:

I am holding back on the "deserter" label, however, there is definitely at least a preponderance of evidence that he did desert.

They don't need too much more.

However, I thought I read that he was back in uniform and being rehabbed?

Can't remember where though.

A...

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Still ignoring Egypt.

Michael

Egypt was a case of the Muslim Brotherhood pushing too hard too fast for their own good. It was a major blow to them, but they will learn valuable lessons from it. It is about gaining power and holding it. More broadly, the rejection of the Muslim Brotherhood wasn't a rejection of Islam, and the Islamisation of that country continues. Events in Egypt certainly haven't slowed down the global Jihadists. I don't see the rejection of Islam that you claim is underway. Go to Egypt and criticise Islam and see how long your liberty lasts.

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I don't see the rejection of Islam that you claim is underway.

Man you're thick.

I never claimed that. They rejected fundamentalist Islamists.

Hatred does this lack of awareness to you.

I would recommend hating less and thinking more, but I know it would fall on deaf ears right now. Your very reason for living is tied to this hatred.

Michael

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Michael,

Muslims in Brazil are mostly Levantine Arabs who in the context of that New World country identified or where labeled as the upper Brazilian caste of "Whites". I believe it's the same in all of Latin America. While of Christian origin Mr Carlos Slim is a good example of what I'm talking about.

Muslims in the Old World, bear a different responsibility. After the thankful demise Nationalism and Socialism, Islam now remains, even if a relic, the only common ideology/philosophy of the recently decolonized Third World countries of Asia and Africa. When they migrate to the developed world, they realise that their righteous indignation in the face of current European decadence is the only certain thing they count on to keep their spirits up and their self esteem from plummeting. Some cases however discover Western values in Europe and integrate. Others strive for a better life in their home countries. But are they the majority?

Islam is the only (or most powerful) thing that gives identity to many African and South Asian societies, from Dakar to Jakarta, and from Almaty to Zanzibar.

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