Science proves choice is noise

[SoAMadDeathWish]

But, if your choice is not non deterministic, then your choice to ignore what is actually going on was deterministic. But, that implies that the appearance of non determinism was deterministic which implies that things really are non deterministic (or "indeterministic").

What is the third way between deterministic and non deterministic (or "indeterministic")?

Darrell

Your conclusion doesn't follow from your premises.

Reality, being neither deterministic nor indeterministic, is not in a "third way" between the two. It just doesn't make any sense to ask whether reality is determinstic or not and to what degree, just as it doesn't make any sense to ask how furiously a colorless green idea sleeps.

[Brant Gaede]

This thread operates in the sub-basement of Cognition 101. It's only taken months for the determinism model to be replaced by the determinism-not determinism model.

--Brant

what's next?--the world wants to know

[Darrell Hougen]

Your conclusion doesn't follow from your premises.

Says you.

Reality, being neither deterministic nor indeterministic, is not in a "third way" between the two. It just doesn't make any sense to ask whether reality is determinstic or not and to what degree, just as it doesn't make any sense to ask how furiously a colorless green idea sleeps.

Uh, huh. Sure. Whatever.

Darrell

[BaalChatzaf]

Reality, being neither deterministic nor indeterministic, is not in a "third way" between the two. It just doesn't make any sense to ask whether reality is determinstic or not and to what degree, just as it doesn't make any sense to ask how furiously a colorless green idea sleeps.

There is a complementarity between colorless and furious governed by the Heisenberg Indeterminacy Principle

Ba'al Chatzaf

[SoAMadDeathWish]

Reality, being neither deterministic nor indeterministic, is not in a "third way" between the two. It just doesn't make any sense to ask whether reality is determinstic or not and to what degree, just as it doesn't make any sense to ask how furiously a colorless green idea sleeps.

There is a complementarity between colorless and furious governed by the Heisenberg Indeterminacy Principle

Ba'al Chatzaf

Ha! I just got it.

[moralist]

And, strictly speaking, choice is an illusion, since all thoughts are the outcome of purely deterministic physical laws.

While that ~might~ be true about thoughts themselves... it is also true that we can choose to act in accord with thoughts... or choose to act contrary to them... or even choose not to act on them at all, and to simply let them pass by unresponded, but not ignored.

Greg

[Wolf DeVoon]

I spent the evening watching videos, partly because I care about people; I care about the United States. But more importantly and selfishly, I need to have spiritual food, a glimpse of something right and decent and uplifting. For me, there is profound happiness hearing someone say it, that hard work is worth doing. There are 3 million high-paying jobs in America today that cannot be filled, because too many people are (a) unqualified to do those jobs and (b) were told that it's not necessary or desirable to get your hands dirty.

 

As a youngster I worked in factories, spent a summer as a longshoreman, worked as an electrician, plumber, draftsman, carpenter, furniture maker, audio technician, and stagehand. I have a set of tools and when something breaks or doesn't work right at home, I don't have to call for help, because I have a lot of skills that took time to learn. Skills are not acquired without effort. The decision to pay attention, focus the mind, see the work and perceive its meaning -- which is seldom obvious -- is a matter of choice. So is showing up for work every day, ready and willing to attack a new problem and get the job done.

 

I don't know if you have the patience to watch these videos. Mike's a great guy with a simple message. We've blown trillions sending kids to college who can't find a job and are loaded with student debt that they'll never repay. In the meantime, there are millions of American jobs that can't be filled -- jobs with good starting wages, free training, and six-figure incomes for qualified journeymen.

 

 

[BaalChatzaf]

You know what I miss and what I crave? American know how and Yankee ingenuity. Americans unleashed and challenged by what is hard to do. JFK appealed to that when he proposed a voyage to the Moon. Too bad it was part of a pissing contest with the Soviet Union.

There was a time when we rode the lightning and I rather miss those times.

Ba'al Chatzaf

[Brant Gaede]

But, "There are 3 million high-paying jobs in America today that cannot be filled."

Aside from certified welders welding, what are those jobs? (Didn't watch the videos.)

What would Apple products cost today if manufactured here instead of China?

Three years unemployed and didn't seek new job skills?

Insane US corporate tax policies?

Steve Jobs?--never mind him; he's an Al Gore loving Democrat?

Brain-dead Americans wondering where the American gravy train went?

A guy worked for Apple and didn't have the brains to buy the stock--or he did but it doesn't fit the story?

What did those 50-80g (plus benefits) Apple jobs become in China?

Partial, incomplete data and their implied analysis is like a train without tracks to run on.

--Brant

[Brant Gaede]

Productive economies wash back and forth over each other in parts and wholes depending on myriad factors such as taxes and regulations and age of industrial plants and innovation and essentially common currencies. Note how the major currencies tend to move in basic lockstep with each other. That's central banking collusion. Each bank supports the others leaving no major player someplace to hide from otherwise worthless paper and electronically tabulated wealth, where most of the real capital now sits shitting in its pants lest someone push the wrong button and it all goes "poof!"

--Brant

physical gold is the ultimate financial insurance for standard classical reasons plus it's a commodity-currency that has an unconsumed surplus that can be fallen back on whereas the value of something like oil is hard-wired into immediate production-consumption

[Brant Gaede]

I seem to have posted on one thread when two required my presence, so to say. To which, I can say: "Sin loi!"

--Brant

[BaalChatzaf]

I seem to have posted on one thread when two required my presence, so to say. To which, I can say: "Sin loi!"

--Brant

What is sin lo. Is it Chinese?

[Brant Gaede]

I seem to have posted on one thread when two required my presence, so to say. To which, I can say: "Sin loi!"

--Brant

What is sin lo. Is it Chinese?

"Sin loi" sardonically meant "Sorry about that!" to GIs during the Vietnam War--a rather poor translation of the Vietnamese

--Brant

the Vietnamese in turn turned it into a standard radio comedy routine complete with artificial laughter, I suspect sans sardonic--how do you laugh at the sardonic?--I suspect only a jerk of air out your nose originating down in the gut

it reminds me of an editorial cartoon in the New York Daily News (1961 or 1962) of JFK as a boxer standing over a defeated opponent labeled "Big Steel"--or some such thing--with the President saying, "I beg your pardon. You're not an SOB after all" (his Father had told him all businessmen were sons of bitches)--he could have said: "Sin loi!" instead, only nobody back then would have gotten it

[Wolf DeVoon]

Aside from certified welders welding, what are those jobs? (Didn't watch the videos.)

Partial, incomplete data and their implied analysis is like a train without tracks to run on.

Not to quibble, but the major premise was choice: "Skills are not acquired without effort. The decision to pay attention, focus the mind, see the work and perceive its meaning -- which is seldom obvious -- is a matter of choice. So is showing up for work every day, ready and willing to attack a new problem and get the job done."

[Brant Gaede]

Aside from certified welders welding, what are those jobs? (Didn't watch the videos.)

Partial, incomplete data and their implied analysis is like a train without tracks to run on.

Not to quibble, but the major premise was choice: "Skills are not acquired without effort. The decision to pay attention, focus the mind, see the work and perceive its meaning -- which is seldom obvious -- is a matter of choice. So is showing up for work every day, ready and willing to attack a new problem and get the job done."

It's like Woody Allen said: "80 percent of success is showing up."

--Brant

[Wolf DeVoon]

There's another aspect to this choice business (and learning and work) that goes to the heart of the matter. For me, the fundamental issue is courage. Not eloquence or natural aptitude, but the courage to think of and for yourself and to step into the competitive marketplace, right or wrong, win or lose, instead of hiding in mom's basement or swimming with the game show of history already in progress. That's why Mike Rowe talks about "freelance" -- in the medieval world, a knight for hire who owned a lance; in the modern world, a tradesman with tools who's independently employed and whose reward is determined purely by his skillfulness and promptitude in solving problems -- the antithesis of a lazy salaryman with fat company benefits.

I experience embarrassment every time I write for publication, and it's a willful act of courage to push the send button.

[Brant Gaede]

I experience embarrassment every time I write for publication, and it's a willful act of courage to push the send button.

Don't worry. It will be deleted. (You didn't have the courage not to have the courage.)

--Brant

heh, heh ("If you only knew the power of the Dark Side!"--my side!)

evil for sale--I take PayPal (unrefundable $100 initial consultation)

[Jules Troy]

One of my proudest moments was when I was a kid. I was 12 yrs old and left the house one saturday morning at 8 am in order to shovel driveways. I came home at 11pm. He thought I was playing with my friends all day. At the time I charged 2 bucks/driveway. So he asked me how much I made. I replied "no idea". So I reached into both pockets pulled out a wad of bills and started counting. It was close to 300 dollars. I could tell by the look in his eyes that he almost started crying he was so proud of me.

Been a hard working SOB ever since.

[Brant Gaede]

You cleared 150 driveways?

--Brant

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Mike Rowe is one of my modern real-life heroes.

Michael

[moralist]

Consciousness is reducible to nothing more than physical processes in the brain. It is not something that acts "above" those processes. It is those processes.

And, strictly speaking, choice is an illusion, since all thoughts are the outcome of purely deterministic physical laws.

Having expressed those two statements... do you regard humans as being morally accountable for their actions?

Greg

[moralist]

You know what I miss and what I crave? American know how and Yankee ingenuity. Americans unleashed and challenged by what is hard to do. JFK appealed to that when he proposed a voyage to the Moon. Too bad it was part of a pissing contest with the Soviet Union.

There was a time when we rode the lightning and I rather miss those times.

Ba'al Chatzaf

Nothing prevents you from enjoying "American know how and Yankee ingenuity" in your own life.

If you find it for yourself, it won't matter no one else does.

Greg

[BaalChatzaf]

You know what I miss and what I crave? American know how and Yankee ingenuity. Americans unleashed and challenged by what is hard to do. JFK appealed to that when he proposed a voyage to the Moon. Too bad it was part of a pissing contest with the Soviet Union.

There was a time when we rode the lightning and I rather miss those times.

Ba'al Chatzaf

Nothing prevents you from enjoying "American know how and Yankee ingenuity" in your own life.

When you find it for yourself, it won't matter if no one else does.

Greg

Well I do. But I have to dig hard for it. Particularly since the government is hard at work smothering it.

Ba'al Chatzaf

[moralist]

One of my proudest moments was when I was a kid. I was 12 yrs old and left the house one saturday morning at 8 am in order to shovel driveways. I came home at 11pm. He thought I was playing with my friends all day. At the time I charged 2 bucks/driveway. So he asked me how much I made. I replied "no idea". So I reached into both pockets pulled out a wad of bills and started counting. It was close to 300 dollars. I could tell by the look in his eyes that he almost started crying he was so proud of me.

Been a hard working SOB ever since.

That's a great story about making a good choice, Jules...

...the emancipating discovery that you can literally create your own wealth. That's a relatively young idea... and antithetical to the more ancient idea that the only way to acquire wealth is to take it away from someone else.

Greg

[moralist]

You know what I miss and what I crave? American know how and Yankee ingenuity. Americans unleashed and challenged by what is hard to do. JFK appealed to that when he proposed a voyage to the Moon. Too bad it was part of a pissing contest with the Soviet Union.

There was a time when we rode the lightning and I rather miss those times.

Ba'al Chatzaf

Nothing prevents you from enjoying "American know how and Yankee ingenuity" in your own life.

When you find it for yourself, it won't matter if no one else does.

Greg

Well I do. But I have to dig hard for it. Particularly since the government is hard at work smothering it.

Ba'al Chatzaf

Perhaps you might consider trying a different approach.

There are many different ways of doing things.

Greg