Robertson, Of Duck Dynasty Fired For His Personal Opinions - Regarding Sexuality...

[Brant Gaede]

I.e., anyone who's doubtful of your honesty is so because that person disagrees with some viewpoint or other you hold. Bilge.

Ellen

His view is not unreasonable.

Woman.

"Woman" is a put-down cultural artifact from the 1950s.

--Brant

profoundly sexist re-enforcement of patriarchy

[moralist]

I.e., anyone who's doubtful of your honesty is so because that person disagrees with some viewpoint or other you hold. Bilge.

Ellen:

My belief at this point is that he knows his misrepresentations of others' viewpoints are misrepresentations, and that the snakiness of his responses is deliberate - seems to me too practiced not to be deliberate.

You've made my point better than I ever could about the need to try to discredit the view not chosen by trying to discredit the holder of that view. So give your best shot, Ellen. That's what you're supposed to do.

Greg

[moralist]

I.e., anyone who's doubtful of your honesty is so because that person disagrees with some viewpoint or other you hold. Bilge.

Ellen

His view is not unreasonable.

Woman.

"Woman" is a put-down cultural artifact from the 1950s.

--Brant

profoundly sexist re-enforcement of patriarchy

Even though I'm an artifact of the 1940's, I have a different view:

To me, a woman is a female who has moral values,

just as a man is a male who has moral values.

Greg

[Ellen Stuttle]

I.e., anyone who's doubtful of your honesty is so because that person disagrees with some viewpoint or other you hold. Bilge.

Ellen:

My belief at this point is that he knows his misrepresentations of others' viewpoints are misrepresentations, and that the snakiness of his responses is deliberate - seems to me too practiced not to be deliberate.

You've made my point better than I ever could about the need to try to discredit the view not chosen by trying to discredit the holder of that view. So give your best shot, Ellen. That's what you're supposed to do.Greg

I wonder if you know that you've misrepresented again.

Ellen

[moralist]

I.e., anyone who's doubtful of your honesty is so because that person disagrees with some viewpoint or other you hold. Bilge.

Ellen:

My belief at this point is that he knows his misrepresentations of others' viewpoints are misrepresentations, and that the snakiness of his responses is deliberate - seems to me too practiced not to be deliberate.

You've made my point better than I ever could about the need to try to discredit the view not chosen by trying to discredit the holder of that view. So give your best shot, Ellen. That's what you're supposed to do.Greg

I wonder if you know that you've misrepresented again.

Ellen

Since you wrote the words quoted above it's up to you to account for them. You've yet to do that.

Greg

[Ellen Stuttle]

Since you wrote the words quoted above it's up to you to account for them. You've yet to do that.

Greg

The words above do not say what you intimate they say. They don't address your views but instead your misrepresenting other people's views - and your sliding around shifting what's been said even by yourself, as you've done a number of times with a number of people. It's your methods of response which make me suspicious of your honesty, not the particulars of your opinions.

Ellen

[studiodekadent]

This entire controversy is really about politeness rather than "rights."

A&E was within their rights to fire Robertson for his remarks. Robertson's right to free speech doesn't imply a right to freedom from other people's reactions to his speech (whether they be critique, shunning or boycotts). The right of Free Speech means that no individual or institution may use physical force, fraud or threats thereof against any specific person merely on the basis of what that person says (assuming of course that person's speech is not fraudulent or threatening).

All parties involved are within their rights to free speech.

However, there is an issue about what we might describe as "free speech values"... a climate of open discussion and debate.

I think Robertson's statements were wrong and I can see why some would find them offensive. But is shouting him down actually going to help win hearts and minds or does it simply make the gay community look bad?

Quite frankly, I think that violating free speech values is counterproductive for a minority group that is seeking acceptance.

I support the cause of gay rights. I think Robertson's firing, ironically enough, will set back this cause by creating a new martyr-figure for homophobes to rally around and casting gays in an unflattering light.

A&E fired Robertson. Gay groups should point this out: 'they fired him, we didn't.' And with respect to messaging strategy, I'd think instead of calling Robertson "hateful and bigoted" (he may be, but moralistic scolding letters just preach to the choir) they should simply point out that old people often have old fashioned ideas, but more and more people every day are realizing that sexual orientation is morally neutral and that everyone should be judged by the content of their character rather than the anatomy of their bedmates.

[Brant Gaede]

Even though I'm an artifact of the 1940's, I have a different view:

To me, a woman is a female who has moral values,

just as a man is a male who has moral values.

Greg

And forget the context of my remarks.

--Brant

[Brant Gaede]

Robertson wasn't "fired," but "suspended." Actual firing would mean cancelling the whole show. The idea is to force public contriteness out of the man then back to business.

--Brant

let him have his viewpoints; he's going to have them anyway; we don't need this cultural fascism

[tmj]

Robertson wasn't "fired," but "suspended." Actual firing would mean cancelling the whole show. The idea is to force public contriteness out of the man then back to business.

--Brant

let him have his viewpoints; he's going to have them anyway; we don't need this cultural fascism

I would agree we don't need cultural fascism, I assume here you mean ramming pc notions(and I guess the whole notion of 'pc' too) down our throats, but what about the idea of supply and demand in the market place of ideas? Does pcness come about from demand or supply? Or is it just uninteneded consequences?

[Brant Gaede]

There is little "market place of ideas." You have hundreds of billions of government dollars subsidizing leftest ideas throughout higher education and the big media through journalism schools. The country is ruled by an "intellectual" elite suffused with green religion that has grossly permeated even mainstream science. Notice how Republican politicians, especially in Congress, are effectively bitch-slapped into place or how a completely unqualified Obama became President and was re-elected (along with vote fraud). Here's how ideas work apart from the personal level: a bunch of powerful people get together who have many of the same ideas and tear their country apart from the mother country and call it The United States of America. But underneath the surface of freedom it was all about power and power relationships, country to country and a country to its people. Ayn Rand intuitively knew this which is why Presidential elections were so important to her even when she was writing "It's Earlier Than You Think" (1964). Even "Atlas Shrugged" was about over-throwing the government and plugging a new one in. There was little battle of ideas--that was too late.

With the help of great ideas one can have a great life. But like people countries have youth, middle age, old age and die--or get reborn from calamity. There are 6 billion people in this world who could care less about ideas; they just want a stable structure to live in and deal with. As a country, America is still quite young but idea-wise it's running on inertia except for a few stokers throwing fuel into the firebox. Yeah, some of that fuel is ideas but we have no real understanding where the damn train is going. Go away for a thousand years and come back amazed; you will be amazed--to the point of incomprehension, especially thanks to technology. What is now almost completely on the ash bin of history is effective totalitarian impulse except in the Muslim religion and that's the next to go. Shit upon shit will be left over--what else could be new?--but not that insane crap; people won't put up with it, especially thanks to social media.

--Brant

[moralist]

Robertson wasn't "fired," but "suspended." Actual firing would mean cancelling the whole show. The idea is to force public contriteness out of the man then back to business.

That's what totalitarian word Nazis do... they punish the politically incorrect for daring to step out of line.

A & E had to do something (anything) to placate the nazis or the punishment would be shifted onto them.

Greg

[Robert Baratheon]

So, again, Greg, this raises the question of how people boycotting Duck Dynasty and A&E is any different from your boycott of anyone whose values you don't share.

[tmj]

Brant

By the analogy I was questioning whether enough of the media consumers are constituting a big enough demand that the media producers are supplying what they want(or have been conditioned to want), or whether the media has an agenda ( not necessarily a finely organized conspiracy more of a fellow traveller type association) and is supplying what ever they feel is appropriate . Ie is the culture the 'public's' fault or both? I tend to see it as both, that it's more a vicious cycle, lemmings needing a leader and then every once and a while the lemmings change course or find some balls.

I do think power plays a large role but ideas and philosophy are still the driving force , in collective action and on personal levels.

Right now I am content that my follow lemmings are good with the idea of double yellow lines, at least enough to leave the house everyday.

[Selene]

The "reaction" to a citizen expressing his personal values, good, bad, or confused is fascinating to my mind.

I am not astounded, sad to say, by the allegedly "open minded" inteligensia's reaction to Robertson's clarity concerning his definition of sin.

A...

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Adam,

George Will (who is so-so to me) came up with a cute quip for this.

He said the new entitlement in America is to go through life without being offended.

I think he's on to something because apparently it is--for right and left.

Everyone's playing the victim game these days and we're running out of oppressors.

Michael

[Selene]

Adam,

George Will (who is so-so to me) came up with a cute quip for this.

He said the new entitlement in America is to go through life without being offended.

I think he's on to something because apparently it is--for right and left.

Everyone's playing the victim game these days and we're running out of oppressors.

Michael

A serious point you are making.

Working in mediation for the last decade or so was completely contrary to my "advocacy" persona.

I was not a nice person in that persona.

However, making that shift from advocate to "faciltator" removed the "agenda" at several levels from confrontational to "non-confrontational."

I was never an advocate of the content analysis behavioralists that began to flood my Speech Department, which morphed into Communication Arts and Sciences Department.

However, I absorbed solid semanitic behavioral science in that morphing from "rhetoric" to communications.

Ayn's sanction of the victim concept was psychologically revolutionary to my young mind. If I had the skill to paint, or, sketch, my imaging would explode on the canvas.

Think of how "victimolagy" is a weight versus her concept of "victim!"

[Serapis Bey]

I.e., anyone who's doubtful of your honesty is so because that person disagrees with some viewpoint or other you hold. Bilge.

Ellen

His view is not unreasonable.

Woman.

"Woman" is a put-down cultural artifact from the 1950s.

--Brant

profoundly sexist re-enforcement of patriarchy

Sorry Brant. Let me try again:

Woman.

Better?

(my eructation was a subconscious burp -- the dynamic Greg described and Ellen poo-pooed is one which allows a person to avoid a missile of Truth. In my observation and experience, women tend to employ this defense the most)

Re:Ellen -- she is a mighty potent force. I am sure she is a fine, upstanding dame of unassailable morality and propriety.

As far as I know.

[Serapis Bey]

So, again, Greg, this raises the question of how people boycotting Duck Dynasty and A&E is any different from your boycott of anyone whose values you don't share.

From a purely logical standpoint, disregarding context, they are no different.

But we should always look at the big picture.

Freedom of speech belongs to those who own a printing press -- Hyatt

[Serapis Bey]

Adam,

George Will (who is so-so to me) came up with a cute quip for this.

He said the new entitlement in America is to go through life without being offended.

I think he's on to something because apparently it is--for right and left.

Everyone's playing the victim game these days and we're running out of oppressors.

Michael

And the victim game is really just an expression of unwarranted vanity, a vanity temporarily viable due to material affluence.

Pride always goeth before a fall...

He is Risen!!!!!!!

[Brant Gaede]

deleted

(The video seems to have morphed away)

[Selene]

I.e., anyone who's doubtful of your honesty is so because that person disagrees with some viewpoint or other you hold. Bilge.

Ellen

His view is not unreasonable.

Woman.

"Woman" is a put-down cultural artifact from the 1950s.

--Brant

profoundly sexist re-enforcement of patriarchy

Sorry Brant. Let me try again:

I like the mostly naked writhing young woman, especially because she's so ready for rear mounting, my fav.

--Brant

lost my concentration--what were we talking about?

Extremely important issues...

[PDS]

I.e., anyone who's doubtful of your honesty is so because that person disagrees with some viewpoint or other you hold. Bilge.

Ellen

His view is not unreasonable.

Woman.

"Woman" is a put-down cultural artifact from the 1950s.

--Brant

profoundly sexist re-enforcement of patriarchy

Sorry Brant. Let me try again:

Better?

(my eructation was a subconscious burp -- the dynamic Greg described and Ellen poo-pooed is one which allows a person to avoid a missile of Truth. In my observation and experience, women tend to employ this defense the most)

Re:Ellen -- she is a mighty potent force. I am sure she is a fine, upstanding dame of unassailable morality and propriety.

As far as I know.

You can't carry Ellen's jock strap, pal.

But, if your eructation lasts more than 4 hours, you should make sure to call a doctor.

[Selene]

But, if your eructation lasts more than 4 hours, you should make sure to call a doctor.

Councelor, you are one humorous individual...kudos...

[Brant Gaede]

Sorry Brant. Let me try again:

Better?

Not your fault, but somehow the first showing had me looking at a semi-pornographic Sombear video (Love You In the Dark), not this.

--Brant

embarrassment is my middle name