I'll tell you this....

[Robert Baratheon]

Kacy,

If you want to be a military lifer, sell yourself a bunch of bull about "defending freedoms" sailing around the world, and retire young on taxpayer money, you can live that life. People will buy you beers and thank you for your service. They might even let you call yourself a libertarian in their presence.

I tell you the way things are.

One thing you can never say is you haven't been told:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0lx2GUqFkg

[Brant Gaede]

Nice video. So our military is the mafia and Kacy is wed to it?

When I came home from Vietnam I had a nice piece of change. I really didn't want it and it was soon gone. It was "blood money" and I had earned it. I went there in 1966 and left a year later knowing it was a mistake. Not fighting for freedom in a half-assed war. Six months later came Tet proving my judgment right when the President bailed after winning the fight. (The Viet Cong were destroyed leaving only the NVA as an effective force.) Vietnam was never about winning, it was about fighting. A pretend war became pretend peace, dig the process. The fighting was not pretend. Millions were killed.

--Brant

[Robert Baratheon]

Nice video. So our military is the mafia and Kacy is wed to it?

Within the intellectual framework and moral code Kacy claims to hold, yes. And the defensiveness, the need for affirmation, and the layered rationalizations are exactly the same as those displayed by Carmella before the psychiatrist confronts her with the hard truths about her own hypocrisies.

When I came home from Vietnam I had a nice piece of change. I really didn't want it and it was soon gone. It was "blood money" and I had earned it. I went there in 1966 and left a year later knowing it was a mistake. Not fighting for freedom in a half-assed war. Six months later came Tet proving my judgment right when the President bailed after winning the fight. (The Viet Cong were destroyed leaving only the NVA as an effective force.) Vietnam was never about winning, it was about fighting. A pretend war became pretend peace, dig the process. The fighting was not pretend. Millions were killed.

I'm not arguing against blood money or military service per se. In fact, I'm not sure it's possible to avoid participating in the collectivist system anymore, which is by design to make us all complicit in it.

I'm arguing against self-deception - lying to yourself about who you are, why you do what you do, and the real effects of your actions. It doesn't seem like you suffer from this particular problem. It also sounds like you took the psychiatrist's advice, so to speak.

[Brant Gaede]

I wasn't going to stay in the army anyway. I wasn't drafted but might as well have been. Most enlistees were sluiced in by the draft for three years and even four was better than two with no say what they were going to do with you. My personality jibbed with it to some extent, however. It's protective. Call it warrior DNA. I know there's a hard biological wire there. Hunt and fight. At the age of 47 I had a real urge to go fight in the first Gulf War, but after 9/11 came Iraq and it got way too stupid. (Note Objectivist to libertarian shift.) I was against that invasion and I had to go to the bathroom too often regardless. Now I'm creaking. To get any action I have to put up an illuminated sign saying "Drugs and Money" pointing at my front door and sit here on the Internet with a 12 gauge tactical* in my lap. (I turn it off at bedtime, but I don't unload.)

--Brant

*Remington 870

[Brant Gaede]

The only necessary war that the United States has fought seems to have been the Revolutionary War and that war was unnecessary for the British.

American warriors bond much more closely to each other than to their country which provides the general framework or structure for what they do. Robert E. Lee came to regret not fighting to his death with his "brave men." (He also came to regret studying war.) The great Confederate generals who fought for their states more than the Confederacy are now looked upon as great American generals. The soldiers are honorable, not the wars. They are not mafia warriors. This is illustrated in the start of The Godfather when Michael Corleone comes home a Marine war hero. His moral status or stature soon degrades consequently to a new kind of fighting as he expands into the more powerful family context. The director kept referring to what the mafia was doing as "business." Crap.

So when I say "Thank you" to Kacy it's one American fighter to another. The problem is America as a fact and now as an ideal is fast evaporating.

--Brant

to become only an idea like Atlantis is an idea

[Guyau]

Robert,

It is no argument for your views on foreign policy to say that the contrary view is not libertarian. People who post here do not all think libertarianism is entirely correct. Then too, it is not the case that any one of the general positions on foreign policy was ever settled upon as the uniquely correct one among libertarians. They have concurred on civil liberties and economic freedom. That’s it.

It is a fallacy to argue against an enterprise by saying of your interlocutor, “Well of course you would support the enterprise because you are employed in it.” That is a circumstantial ad hominem, an informal fallacy of relevance not going to the issue of the correctness of the enterprise. Laying an abusive ad hominem on top of the preceding fallacy---attacking the quality of consciousness of the interlocutor in the present case---is also not relevant to the issue of the correctness of the enterprise.

[Robert Baratheon]

Brant and Stephen - There is wisdom in what you say. Although I realize it's become something of a cliche to say it, I do believe World War II was a defensive and necessary war. Some kind of action was required in Afghanistan in response to the 9/11 terrorist attacks, but nation building in the middle east is a fools errand.

I'm specifically not faulting Kacy for his choice of military careerism. Suffice it to say that it was something he felt he had to do, and he did it. By the same token, I'm not going to line up to kiss his ass merely because he wears a uniform instead of a suit. He seems to feed on that kind of compulsory admiration, which is implicitly the point of this thread, but I was never one for platitudes.

Kacy has publicly bragged that he'll be able to retire young with a military pension and never have to worry about money again. It's possible you aren't as familiar with his story as I am. The U.S. Government lifted him out of a very tight spot in life - a spot for which he had only his poor life choices to blame - and the taxpayer has paid his way in full ever since for no visible return on investment. Despite this plain reality, he will loudly assert to all who will listen - up close and personal style - that he is a Randian producer living fully according to his code of self-reliance and bootstrapping. Then he'll go to amazing lengths to rationalize U.S. military presence across the world as consistent with principles of non-aggression and limited government. It's a dog and pony show, and I refuse to pay the price of admission.

[Brant Gaede]

Robert,

It is no argument for your views on foreign policy to say that the contrary view is not libertarian. People who post here do not all think libertarianism is entirely correct. Then too, it is not the case that any one of the general positions on foreign policy was ever settled upon as the uniquely correct one among libertarians. They have concurred on civil liberties and economic freedom. That’s it.

It is a fallacy to argue against an enterprise by saying of your interlocutor, “Well of course you would support the enterprise because you are employed in it.” That is a circumstantial ad hominem, an informal fallacy of relevance not going to the issue of the correctness of the enterprise. Laying an abusive ad hominem on top of the preceding fallacy---attacking the quality of consciousness of the interlocutor in the present case---is also not relevant to the issue of the correctness of the enterprise.

Ah. A perfect illustration of why I'm too smart to be dumb enough to argue with a philosopher.

--Brant

[Brant Gaede]

Robert, you have a broader and deeper context with Kacy than anyone else here. It seems a lot of what you say deserves a private context.

--Brant

[Selene]

A duel - excellent idea!

Throwing Down the Gauntlet

[Robert Baratheon]

Robert, you have a broader and deeper context with Kacy than anyone else here. It seems a lot of what you say deserves a private context.

Brant,

Normally I would agree with you, but as you say, there is a broader context and pattern of behavior that changes things. In any event, these topics aren't anything Kacy hasn't publicly introduced for comment here or on Facebook many times before. You're free to throw in your own improvisations as long as you aren't threatening the premise of the story being told. It's when you start to notice dangerous cracks in the foundation of the set that you are quickly shown the door.

The Last Psychiatrist describes narcissism as follows:

"The narcissist believes he is the main character in his own movie... his friends are always supporting characters, that can be called at any hour of the night, that will always be interested in what he is wearing, or what he did... When two narcissists go out, they just wait for the other person's mouth to stop moving so they can talk about themselves... The narcissist reduces everyone else to a type, as it relates to himself; on the other hand, the narcissist, as the main character in his movie, has an identity that he wants (i.e. he made it up) and requires all others to supplement that identity."

So it's Act Two here on Objectivist Living, and you are all being called. The hero of the movie has returned home from his important and dangerous mission, and he wants his ticker tape parade. We, the supporting characters, are expected to supplement his identity as a complicated but incorruptible peace-loving warrior who cuts against the crowd and stands alone for principles of liberty and self-determination, as a Roark-like example for others to follow. Some of us have more specialized roles to play. For example, Brant is the marine "brother" - the only one who can understand the trials and tribulations he has faced. I didn't like my role as the naive protege, so I rejected it. Only the show *must* go on, so I've been recast as a villain who exists only to cast aspersions on the hero. I don't particularly like that role either.

If we accept TLP's explanation, a narcissistic injury is when the narcisist is called on his own bullshit, either explicitly or by a confluence of outside events. He gets a glimpse that maybe the script of the movie he's writing isn't very realistic, or some people think it sucks and don't want to be part of it - they have their own movies to be in anyway. There is only one way that narcissists respond to a narcissistic injury, and that is with rage.

[KacyRay]

MSK - thanks brother.

Ba'al - Yeah, what a trip. It has really changed my perspective on life. And I'm not even talking about the military aspect of it, I'm talking about the experience of being inside a confined area for roughly 8 months with the same people, eating the same food, living in a small room with limited access to internet and television, and dealing with occasional loss of basic amenities such as air conditioning and potable water.

I was very fortunate to have some advantages that not everyone had. I was one of the senior shore patrol officers, so I got to stay at a hotel during every port visit. That was particularly advantageous in Dubai, where the temperature in the ship was so out-of-control hot that people were sleeping on the flight deck at night, and there was no cold water to take a shower with. (I know, I'd never heard of such a thing either). But I did have to sleep through some nights that were so hot that I would look forward to the point when my sheets were so sweat-drenched that it would at least cool me off a little.

Now each day I am appreciative of things you wouldn't even think of, such as quality toilet paper, the ability to go to the bathroom without walking a long way, the ability to do laundry whenever I want, the ability to cut my hair whenever I like, access to all of my things, video chat, cell phone service, the ability to pet my dogs, etc. I hope this feeling remains, but I know that it's human to being taking these things for granted again. But I will try to remember what it's like not to have those things and how good it feels to live the way we live here.

It's odd... intellectually I know that right now I'm living the exact same life I was living before we deployed, but emotionally it feels like I'm living a dream right now in some luxurious vacation home.

[KacyRay]

RB - what color is the sky on your planet, man?

[Robert Baratheon]

RB - what color is the sky on your planet, man?

Blue and clear this morning in Virginia. One can see for miles from the right vantage point.

[dldelancey]

Kacy, welcome back and thanks for your service.

RB, your message has been received. Perhaps now you could allow us to go forth and draw our own conclusions.

[PDS]

Kacy, welcome back and thanks for your service.

RB, your message has been received. Perhaps now you could allow us to go forth and draw our own conclusions.

Nicely said, on both counts.

[Mikee]

My thoughts: I spent four years (67-71) in the Navy, mostly on the Saratoga. The hardest part on the two Med cruises I was on was the fact we were a flag ship and had to endure every mickey mouse navy reg on the books. Both cruises when we were scheduled to stop in a French port there was some kind of crisis where we had to steam off to the eastern med instead. Kacy is an officer and a pencil pusher in a job where everything is done by the numbers, no real imagination required. But not dotting an i or crossing a t can cause real repercussions. Like being chewed out by a superior, embarrassed and risk missing a promotion. The real work on a ship is done by the enlisted men. There were accidental deaths on each cruise I was on, usually an accident involving enlisted, except for when a plane went down and the pilot and navigator were both lost. The Navy pilots were the guys with the huge balls we all respected (can't imagine landing on a postage stamp in the middle of the ocean at 200 mph). Not the line officers, with a few exceptions. Maybe they were sleep deprived or something, but when your only interaction was occasionally getting chewed out for nothing (literally) when the idiot couldn't do your job if his life depended on it doesn't leave a good impression. Anyway, I'm sort of inclined towards RB's analysis. Much ado about nothing. The elevator door opens "Ground floor, everybody out". That, sort of.

[Robert Baratheon]

Kacy, welcome back and thanks for your service.

RB, your message has been received. Perhaps now you could allow us to go forth and draw our own conclusions.

Nicely said, on both counts.

All I can offer are my own insights and opinions. Take them or leave them as you will.

Before departing, however, I will retrieve one last piece for consideration:

"To answer your question - yes, I most certainly have another purpose. In fact, I would be very happy not to have one single further instance of these interpersonal comments. I'd be very happy to just discuss ideas, positions, and formulations. I'd be happy just to ask questions and provoke discussion on hot-button topics."

This statement was made by Kacy right before he quit OL in a huff several months ago. If we take him at his word, then what is the hot-button topic of this thread that Kacy created? What important questions is he asking? What ideas, positions, and formulations did he expect people to share?

Nothing of the sort can be found because it's a personal thread about him, so I responded in kind on the personal level. Now he's upset that I didn't stick to the script he provided us. Well, tough noogies there.

Here's another nugget from the same thread:

"RB registered here for one reason and one reason only – to troll and harass me....I don't suspect he'll stick around when his only real incentive for being here is removed."

What's notable here, beside the fact that (as usual) he was dead wrong in his analysis and prediction, is that as far as Kacy is concerned, I only exist in relation to him and his adventures - just like all the other commenters here only matter insofar as they are willing participants in his script. Kacy never asks about their own personal experiences or thoughts because he doesn't care about them. However, it's only natural that you would be absolutely fascinated by his life and his thoughts about it.

You are dealing with a narcissistic personality. Being used is another way of putting it. And now you also can never say that you haven't been told.

[PDS]

Kacy, welcome back and thanks for your service.

RB, your message has been received. Perhaps now you could allow us to go forth and draw our own conclusions.

Nicely said, on both counts.

All I can offer are my own insights and opinions. Take them or leave them as you will.

Before departing, however, I will retrieve one last piece for consideration:

"To answer your question - yes, I most certainly have another purpose. In fact, I would be very happy not to have one single further instance of these interpersonal comments. I'd be very happy to just discuss ideas, positions, and formulations. I'd be happy just to ask questions and provoke discussion on hot-button topics."

This statement was made by Kacy right before he quit OL in a huff several months ago. If we take him at his word, then what is the hot-button topic of this thread that Kacy created? What important questions is he asking? What ideas, positions, and formulations did he expect people to share?

Nothing of the sort can be found because it's a personal thread about him, so I responded in kind on the personal level. Now he's upset that I didn't stick to the script he provided us. Well, tough noogies there.

Here's another nugget from the same thread:

"RB registered here for one reason and one reason only – to troll and harass me....I don't suspect he'll stick around when his only real incentive for being here is removed."

What's notable here, beside the fact that (as usual) he was dead wrong in his analysis and prediction, is that as far as Kacy is concerned, I only exist in relation to him and his adventures - just like all the other commenters here only matter insofar as they are willing participants in his script. Kacy never asks about their own personal experiences or thoughts because he doesn't care about them. However, it's only natural that you would be absolutely fascinated by his life and his thoughts about it.

You are dealing with a narcissistic personality. Being used is another way of putting it. And now you also can never say that you haven't been told.

Everything you say may be true, and I have valued your non-Kacy opinons, by and large.

You do, however, come across (on this topic) as somebody who, one too many times, may have gotten sand kicked in his face on the beach by Kacy the Bully.

My suggestion would be to stop going to the beach, or start doing some weight-lifting.

[Robert Baratheon]

Everything you say may be true, and I have valued your non-Kacy opinons, by and large.

You do, however, come across (on this topic) as somebody who, one too many times, may have gotten sand kicked in his face on the beach by Kacy the Bully.

My suggestion would be to stop going to the beach, or start doing some weight-lifting.

Although you might not have meant it literally, Kacy never bullied me per se. I don't think that's his nature. He did feign friendship at a time when I didn't have many friends, during my high school years. As soon as I outgrew his tutelage and stopped accepted his lessons wholesale, he was no longer getting his narcissistic fixes from me and switched over to the put downs and dismissals that have continued ever since.

I've been weightlifting quite a bit since high school, mentally and physically, and this forum is part of my beach now. Despite what he's said to the contrary, Kacy's presence or absence from this forum does not determine whether I will recreate here. If he chooses to walk by my blanket, however - having said the things that he's said - then he's going to get some sand kicked in *his* face by me, at least until he sets aside his ego and attempts to make amends for past wrongs.

EDIT: None of this is to say I'm fabricating discussion points solely for purposes of retribution. As stated earlier, I'm telling the way things are. The difference is I've turned off the niceties and selective omissions that are a part of everyday human interaction, which those who offer respect get the benefit of and those who regularly disrespect me do not.

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Now each day I am appreciative of things you wouldn't even think of, such as quality toilet paper, the ability to go to the bathroom without walking a long way, the ability to do laundry whenever I want, the ability to cut my hair whenever I like, access to all of my things, video chat, cell phone service, the ability to pet my dogs, etc. I hope this feeling remains, but I know that it's human to being taking these things for granted again. But I will try to remember what it's like not to have those things and how good it feels to live the way we live here.

It's odd... intellectually I know that right now I'm living the exact same life I was living before we deployed, but emotionally it feels like I'm living a dream right now in some luxurious vacation home.

Kacy,

The particulars are different, but now you know what I know (from my 32 years in Brazil).

You can tell people this and they will understand you conceptually, but it will not resonate. They know the words, but they don't have the experience to make it mean anything to them deep down inside. That's been my experience, especially when the "America is going to hell" bug bites them.

The following might be a nuance, but it's an important difference to someone who "knows." When you fight because things are awful and only going to get worse, that's one thing. When you fight because you are living the life of Riley and you don't want to see that go away, that's another.

I think the "America is going to hell" message does not inflame people the way it might because the mainstream message (when this message is touted) keeps bouncing back and forth between those two and the public's BS meter keep telling folks something ain't right--i.e., you just can't have it both ways.

Michael

[Brant Gaede]

America went to hell--and called it "The Civil War."

--Brant

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Brant,

And look what happened since.

At the 40,000' view, it reminds me of what happened to Japan and Germany after their WWII devastation.

Michael

[dldelancey]

Now each day I am appreciative of things you wouldn't even think of, such as quality toilet paper, the ability to go to the bathroom without walking a long way, the ability to do laundry whenever I want, the ability to cut my hair whenever I like, access to all of my things, video chat, cell phone service, the ability to pet my dogs, etc. I hope this feeling remains, but I know that it's human to being taking these things for granted again. But I will try to remember what it's like not to have those things and how good it feels to live the way we live here.

It's odd... intellectually I know that right now I'm living the exact same life I was living before we deployed, but emotionally it feels like I'm living a dream right now in some luxurious vacation home.

Kacy,

The particulars are different, but now you know what I know (from my 32 years in Brazil).

You can tell people this and they will understand you conceptually, but it will not resonate. They know the words, but they don't have the experience to make it mean anything to them deep down inside. That's been my experience, especially when the "America is going to hell" bug bites them.

The following might be a nuance, but it's an important difference to someone who "knows." When you fight because things are awful and only going to get worse, that's one thing. When you fight because you are living the life of Riley and you don't want to see that go away, that's another.

I think the "America is going to hell" message does not inflame people the way it might because the mainstream message (when this message is touted) keeps bouncing back and forth between those two and the public's BS meter keep telling folks something ain't right--i.e., you just can't have it both ways.

Michael

I experienced something similar, I think, after hurricane Katrina when I came home and found that I had very little left except the 3 days worth of clothes that I had evacuated with. It's enlightening the things you can live without and the things you realize you'd taken for granted.

[Selene]

It's enlightening the things you can live without and the things you realize you'd taken for granted.

Extremely enlightening.

My lady and I tarp camped in the Shenandoah. Sleeping open to the night was spectacular, basic and perfect.

Formulated significant thoughts for me.

A...