JEWS AND YOU AND JEWS

[Brant Gaede]

Two threads dealing with Jews have been tossed into the Garbage Pile by Michael and closed because of bigoted, racist and collectivist thinking, inquiry and advocation. This seems to have two bases: collectivism as it pertains to Jews by Jews and collectivism as it pertains to non-Jews by non-Jews and toward Jews doing the same thing being complained about. Thus one group clashes with another. The basic problem is not bigotry but general lack of individualism. The lack of individualism amongst Jews and strong Jewish identity even with individualistic trending Jews is the result of a minority being put upon by a dominant majority through the centuries in forced ghettoization de facto and de jure even to the point of expulsion, terror and genocide. It is in America that this ghettoization can be denatured from lack of need and circumstance respecting significant number of Jews, but not in Israel.

When Arabs are dominant--the countries surrounding Israel--Jews (and Christians) get crushed. When Jews are dominant--in Israel--Arabs are not crushed. Note the word I have used: "crushed." Nor are the Christians. The Jews, you see, want individualism psychologically but are trapped in collectivist thinking apropos their socialist matrix they were intellectually and culturally born into. The only individuals they want to crush use the surname of "Hitler."

I could live in Israel as a non-Jew WAS(P). There is not one Arab-Muslim country I even want to set foot in except, maybe, Jordan.

To slam Jews because of thoughts, actions and influence of some Jews, present and historical, is bigotry--toward individualism. One tribe slaughtering the members of another tribe is anti-thetical to Americanism.

--Brant

[caroljane]

Utterly right. I would add that though insisting on a strict social structure, Judaism has always encouraged intellectual individuality and indeed could not have prevented it, can you imagine Einstein or Rand being other than Jewish, or indeed \Mordecai Richler one of whose fictional uncles shook his head over him as "just another goddamned Jewish atheist\'

Carol

You know I will always shove in the Canadian angle when I can

[Mark]

If opposing what B'nai B'rith, JINSA, AIPAC, the Hebrew Immigrant Aid Society and many other Jewish groups have done over the years to destroy America is bigoted, racist, collectivist and anti-semitic, make the most of it.

... can you imagine Einstein or Rand being other than Jewish ...

A quote from Voltaire about a prayer comes to mind.

[Robert Baratheon]

Arguing antisemitism with an antisemite is as useful as arguing Christianity with a Christian. You can't defeat with logic an ideology that isn't based in logic in the first place.

As we saw in the threads that were removed, the typical mode of argument is to cherrypick a laundry list of "Jewish" malefactors from throughout all of history. Compile your own equally long list of Jews who have positively contributed to the human condition and they're routinely written off as "exceptions" or their contributions are downplayed.

You might as well be arguing the proper multiplier with a Keynesian economist. In either case, you're adopting the non-falsifiable framework and arguing on the terms of the faithful rather than from the position of a skeptic observer.

[Brant Gaede]

If opposing what B'nai B'rith, JINSA, AIPAC, the Hebrew Immigrant Aid Society and many other Jewish groups have done over the years to destroy America is bigoted, racist and collectivist, make the most of it.

... can you imagine Einstein or Rand being other than Jewish ...

A quote from Voltaire about a prayer comes to mind.

Since you are not replying to any argument I've made I have to ask Michael to simply close this thread before it gets so bad it needs a new home in the Garbage Pile. Like right now. This thread is not an invitation for you to continue making posts like this one. Those threads were closed. America, the most powerful, richest country in the history of the world, and the most free, destroyed by Jews. Gimme a break!

--Brant

of course, they were responsible for the Civil War--I forgot about that one

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

The basic problem is not bigotry but general lack of individualism.

Brant,

The problem is actually both.

Nothing exists in a vacuum, especially not public discourse.

There is a Jewish myth out there of covert Zionist bankers trying to swallow up the world, yada yada yada. This myth has resulted in attempted genocide, for God's sake. Don't people ever learn?

The recent discussions on OL feed into that myth and promote it in between the lines. This leads straight to bigotry just as surely as "breaking eggs to make omelettes" thinking leads to a secret police state.

Oh, they say yawp yawp yawp yawp yawp, that they were not really doing that, but they know what they are doing.

This is garbage and I put it where it belongs.

There is a law of nature (specifically a law of consciousness) that says the more public attention you give to a topic, the stronger it gets in public. I shut off the threads because of this. I don't intend to let antisemitism take root on OL.

And I shut it off because those committed to the bigoted positions they promote are merely going to repeat repeat repeat repeat repeat repeat and try to get their spiteful memes into people's brains by drip-feed.

OL is not a percolator. Preaching and covert propaganda are not the purposes of OL. Especially not to promote bigotry, for the love of Pete! This is a site devoted to reason and independent thinking. Where's the independence and where's the thinking in scapegoating Jews all over again?

Or the opposite and promoting Jewish superiority to the rest of mankind?

Or promoting anti-Muslim bigotry?

If there were some actual intelligence going on here, I would not shut it down. But this is pure evil and one of those cases Rand never tired of mentioning where a compromise with it damages the good and strengthens the evil. And note that the evil decries and insinuates lack of fairness. If they want fairness, let them take their spite to other places where they can get it. The web only has 2 billion users or so and so many places to write for free it's not funny. But they don't really want fariness. They want to infect and poison the places where they think they can get away with it until they destroy objectivity and install pure hated in its place.

And don't think this has only been antisemitism. I have one anti-Islamic kook under moderation here on OL who always shows up just to promote his brand of bigotry. I just got so tired of his yawp, I stopped letting most of that garbage through.

There is no value--at least no value for me--to be gained by providing a platform and audience for these clowns. I no longer believe in their objectivity.

Do you, Brant, want to discuss something about Jews? OK. That's cool. You are not a bigot and you are open to reason. I know this from your way of speaking and from interacting with you over years. Just because these clowns speak English, that does not put them in the same category with you.

Do they want to pigeonhole Jews? Or Muslims?

Well, I pigeonhole them. They are bigots. And they complain they don't like being pigeonholed like that.

Heh.

Talk about a friggin' double standard.

OL takes a lot of work to ensure it is a place where people can work through ideas without intimidation--bigoted or otherwise. I intend to keep it that way.

btw - That is precisely where bigotry always leads--intimidation and peer pressure, with the bigots calling it "reason" (as their bullying grows) and the intelligent people making a mass exodus from the surroundings. If you want an easy example in our neck of the woods, look at Solo Passion.

Michael

[Brant Gaede]

Please just shut this thread down, Michael. It's impossible to make it work in any reasonable way.

--Brant

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Please just shut this thread down, Michael. It's impossible to make it work in any reasonable way.

--Brant

Brant,

OK.

Michael

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

On second thought, I am going to open this back up for a while.

Bigotry makes people mad and I don't want OL member to feel they are shut out of a discussion.

That would mean the bigots win--they actually would poison this place with hatred.

I hope it doesn't turn into what these things normally turn into--not because of OL regulars, but because of the bigots.

If that happens, I'll see what I should do. But at least OL members are not the ones cut off on OL because of the hatred of others.

Michael

[ginny]

There wasn't a bigotry problem until the three Stooges rode in on their lame horses. Each of their bits of ignorance ends up in the garbage. Why not just eliminate the middle man.

[Peter]

My American journey through Judah.

Seinfeld. Broadway. Ayn Rand. I really like Jews. I have a Jewish optometrist. My wife has a Jewish dentist who will open up on a weekend if you have a toothache. Remarkable. And for a mere eighty bucks it is more than worth it when your jaw is pounding.

As I have mentioned I have some Jewish genes (discovered though a DNA test) but my family is either atheist, Episcopalian or Catholic. Our grandfather, father, and uncle all looked astonishingly Jewish due to their faces and noses as I was frequently reminded of and sometimes teased about, when I lived on the Mason Dixon Line. Personally, I looked like a candidate for the Hitler Youth. My brother, recently deceased, was curious as to why some in our family had Mediterranean, olive skin as did he and his eldest daughter, so he had the test done. I suppose the luck of the draw gave my family greater intelligence on average and I am glad of that, wherever it came from.

The Jews I have known or known of and liked were mostly culturally Jewish, but not overly religious. I was taught to play chess by such a boy when I was in the fifth and he was in the sixth grade. I used to feel sorry for him and other Jews who did not celebrate Christmas though they did get presents around the same time.

I dated a Jewish girl and her father heartily approved of me, or so I thought. When we broke up I knew his good will was reverse psychology, or is that psycholo-goy? Damn she was smart and gorgeous. Ayn Rand? Anyone who is a fan of hers will probably give Jews a pass if they have any failings.

Peter, Czar of all Russia, middle name David to synch with the Old Testament, or so my Mom used to say.

[anthony]

When it's only widespread political correctness that keeps people silent or hypocritical about Jews*, I say -

the hell with it.

Bring it on! Do your damndest - let's hear your worst.

The swamp monster is surfacing again, only this time it can confronted, early and publicly.

Keep at least this thread open, please.

*(No way reflective of OL, or MSK's efforts.)

[caroljane]

My American journey through Judah.

Seinfeld. Broadway. Ayn Rand. I really like Jews. I have a Jewish optometrist. My wife has a Jewish dentist who will open up on a weekend if you have a toothache. Remarkable. And for a mere eighty bucks it is more than worth it when your jaw is pounding.

As I have mentioned I have some Jewish genes (discovered though a DNA test) but my family is either atheist, Episcopalian or Catholic. Our grandfather, father, and uncle all looked astonishingly Jewish due to their faces and noses as I was frequently reminded of and sometimes teased about, when I lived on the Mason Dixon Line. Personally, I looked like a candidate for the Hitler Youth. My brother, recently deceased, was curious as to why some in our family had Mediterranean, olive skin as did he and his eldest daughter, so he had the test done. I suppose the luck of the draw gave my family greater intelligence on average and I am glad of that, wherever it came from.

The Jews I have known or known of and liked were mostly culturally Jewish, but not overly religious. I was taught to play chess by such a boy when I was in the fifth and he was in the sixth grade. I used to feel sorry for him and other Jews who did not celebrate Christmas though they did get presents around the same time.

I dated a Jewish girl and her father heartily approved of me, or so I thought. When we broke up I knew his good will was reverse psychology, or is that psycholo-goy? Damn she was smart and gorgeous. Ayn Rand? Anyone who is a fan of hers will probably give Jews a pass if they have any failings.

Peter, Czar of all Russia, middle name David to synch with the Old Testament, or so my Mom used to say.

It has been said that when young, Princess Margaret had a specifically \semitic beauty.

The Illuminati have been on the alert ever since.

[william.scherk]

I don't envy MSK the leadership role on these threads, his role as arbiter between bigotry and reason. Some of the entries in the Joo threads seem to taunt listmembers on 'race' grounds. Some of the entries begin and end with assertions and claims and conclusions that are not warranted, that are based on fear and loathing of an Other who has poisoned the collective white chalice.

I support MSK's attempt to curb wild and hateful assertions and claims. I also agree with the broad strokes of RB here:

Arguing antisemitism with an antisemite is as useful as arguing Christianity with a Christian. You can't defeat with logic an ideology that isn't based in logic in the first place.

This could also be laid out with the notion of arguing with Creationists on scientific grounds. The best-equipped-for-prime-time Creationists do not accept any findings that contradict the conclusion, and begin from their conclusion: Gawds created the heavens and the earth, the 'kinds,' species, and every type of organism flourishing or extinct. No evolution of species is possible over cosmic or geologic time because the Kristien/Joo Gaud created it all in the beginning.

Arguing backwards from the conclusion, via cherry-picked data, unsound assertions, and unwarranted claims, these argumentative strategies and tactics are poison to reason and to reliable knowledge.

Take one word that throbs with 'value,' such as Darwinist, Evolutionist, Atheist, Joo ... and dress it up with code-words, prejudicial, partial (and faked) 'findings,' and you have the grill and coals ready for the burning. Add other coded phrases and winks and nods, and be ready to invoke censorship or 'correctness'; be ready to invoke skepticism as a positive scientific, rational quality of inquiry (for, say, the wink wink Holocaust), but do not actually use its tools. As with the creepy Joo-hate conclusions by the Stooge who is merely 'skeptical' of the Nazi extermination programmes, the question-beggaring can be striking.

If opposing what B'nai B'rith, JINSA, AIPAC, the Hebrew Immigrant Aid Society and many other Jewish groups have done over the years to destroy America is bigoted, racist, collectivist and anti-semitic, make the most of it.

Here is an example of horse and cart and code, trussed and immovable. It is not necessary to illuminate even one of the damned groups, nor to drop a fact or two about the damned groups and their work/aims/achievements. They are assumed to be destructive. They are assumed to be alien and threatening (to the white Us). They are damned first ... and then comes the switch.

Instead of explaining why any of us should presume that "opposing what Bnai Brith . . . has done to destroy America" is a good, and in place of arguing or proposing the actual mechanisms and activities that Bnai Brith has done to Destroy America, instead of 'showing the work,' the work is submerged in cant and hostility. By this non-argument's hidden premise, the only sane or rational response to Joo organization is presumed to be an angry opposition -- a mix of loathing, fear, other-izing, and rejection. Those who are revolted by lazy, coarse and unreflective summaries of Joo organizational perfidy would seem to be pre-damned themselves to the land of the blind, the lame and the halt -- pre-damned as PC fuzz, quislings, rectors and naifs.

The premise is this: Joo Orgs Destroy America, blargh blargh blah grrrrr.

What destruction have these organizations left in their wake? What have these dreadful and un-American groups (included the unmentioned 'other Joos') done to the USA? Where is the valid argument, and where is the reliable set of facts that leads to this wide-brush conclusion?

(of course the adherent of racialist presumptions about The Joo can also turn table on questioners ... to reject the complex of unwarranted conclusions and non-rational valuations offered is to be part of a different Them, a cohort of folks who cannot face up to facts as assumed).

Me, I find no understructure supporting such a wide antipathy to Joo things -- except for racial prejudice and thinking-in-groups.

Mark, your lines above appear disturbingly prejudicial and void of argument. Do you really want OLers to take as fed the large meal of hatred, to swallow whole the notions that each of these Joo Orgs has committed 'destruction' of America? Do you take it as given that Bnai Brith has (through its actions) 'destroyed' something? Do you take it as given that the Hebrew Immigrant Aid Society has 'destroyed' something over its century of existence, something which you (I/We) mourn? Do you believe that both AIPAC and JINSA have (in some way or in some part) destroyed America? If you answer to yourself yes to these queries, how would someone who does not share your racial antipathy gain traction on your beliefs and prejudices and presumptive conclusions?

Tell us. Tell us how The Hebrew Immigrant Aid Society served to destroy. Tell us what exactly was destroyed, or is significantly damaged or in the process of destruction. Tell us how you arrived at your judgement. Please do not assume that your judgement is common currency.

Preaching and covert propaganda are not the purposes of OL. Especially not to promote bigotry, for the love of Pete! This is a site devoted to reason and independent thinking. Where's the independence and where's the thinking in scapegoating Jews all over again?

I am willing to give Mark a hearing, should he wish to dispassionately explain his antipathy to the Joos and the Joo organizations noted above. If he can tell us how he came to view these organizations as contributing to the destruction of the country, great. But until that time, I support MSK shutting down threads that smell bad to his nose, and defer to his vision and his judgement of what is and should be cleared-for-takeoff here.

I am glad that Anti-Joo Airlines is currently grounded for inspection.

Here's a quote from a day when racial prejudice was free and open and in flight across the USA, from "The Passing of the Great Race; or, The racial basis of European history," by Madison Grant. My own prejudgment suggests that these words do not stink to the McFakeynamed ones.

A rigid system of selection through the elimination of those who are weak or unfit — in other words social failures — would solve the whole question in one hundred years, as well as enable us to get rid of the undesirables who crowd our jails, hospitals, and insane asylums. The individual himself can be nourished, educated and protected by the community during his lifetime, but the state through sterilization must see to it that his line stops with him, or else future generations will be cursed with an ever increasing load of misguided sentimentalism. This is a practical, merciful, and inevitable solution of the whole problem, and can be applied to an ever widening circle of social discards, beginning always with the criminal, the diseased, and the insane, and extending gradually to types which may be called weaklings rather than defectives, and perhaps ultimately to worthless race types.

Edited June 10, 2013 by william.scherk

[caroljane]

I don't envy MSK the leadership role on these threads, his role as arbiter between bigotry and reason. Some of the entries in the Joo threads seem to taunt listmembers on 'race' grounds. Some of the entries begin and end with assertions and claims and conclusions that are not warranted, that are based on fear and loathing of an Other who has poisoned the collective white Us.

I support MSK's attempt to curb wild and hateful assertions and claims. I also agree with the broad strokes of RB here:

Arguing antisemitism with an antisemite is as useful as arguing Christianity with a Christian. You can't defeat with logic an ideology that isn't based in logic in the first place.

This could also be laid out with the notion of arguing with Creationists on scientific grounds. The best-equipped-for-prime-time Creationists do not accept any findings that contradict the conclusion, and begin from the conclusion: Gawds created the heavens and the earth, the 'kinds,' species, and every type of organism flourishing or extinct. No evolution of species is possible over cosmic or geologic time because the Kristyen Gaud created it all in the beginning.

Arguing backwards from the conclusion, via cherry-picked data, unsound assertions, and unwarranted claims, these argumentative strategies and tactics are poison to reason and to reliable knowledge.

Take one word that throbs with 'value,' such as Darwinist, Evolutionist, Atheist, Joo ... and dress it up with code-words, prejudicial, partial (and faked) 'findings,' and you have the grill and coals ready for the burning. Add other coded phrases and winks and nods, and be ready to invoke censorship or 'correctness'; be ready to invoke skepticism as a positive scientific, rational quality of inquiry, but do not actually use its tools. As with the creepy Joo-hate conclusions by the Stooge who is merely 'skeptical' of the Nazi extermination programmes, the question-beggaring is striking.

If opposing what B'nai B'rith, JINSA, AIPAC, the Hebrew Immigrant Aid Society and many other Jewish groups have done over the years to destroy America is bigoted, racist, collectivist and anti-semitic, make the most of it.

Here is an example of horse and cart. It is not necessary to illuminate even one of the damned groups, nor to drop a fact or two about the damned groups and their work/aims/achievements. They are assumed to be destructive. They are assumed to be alien and threatening (to the white Us). They are damned first ... and then comes the switch.

Instead of explaining why any of us should presume that "opposing what Bnai Brith . . . has done to destroy America" is a good, and in place of arguing or proposing the actual mechanisms and activities that Bnai Brith has done to Destroy America, instead of 'showing the work,' the work is submerged in cant. By this non-argument, the only sane or rational response to Joo organization is presumed to be an angry opposition -- a mix of loathing, fear, other-izing, and rejection.

What have all these organizations left in their wake? What have these dreadful and un-American groups (included the unmentioned 'others') done to the USA? Where is the argument, and where is the reasonable set of facts that leads to this wide-brush conclusion?

(of course the adherent of 'racial' presumptions about The Joo can also turn table on questioners ... to reject the complex of unwarranted conclusions and non-rational valuations offered is to be part of a different Them, a cohort of folks who cannot face up to facts as assumed).

Me, I find no understructure supporting such a wide antipathy to Joo things -- except for racial prejudice and thinking-in-groups.

Mark, your lines above appear disturbingly prejudicial and void of argument. Do you really want OLers to take as fed the large meal of hatred, to swallow whole the notions that each of these Joo Orgs has committed 'destruction' of America? Do you take it as given that Bnai Brith has (through its actions) 'destroyed' something? Do you take it as given that the Hebrew Immigrant Aid Society has 'destroyed' something over its century of existence, something which you (I/We) mourn? Do you believe that both AIPAC and JINSA have (in some way or in some part) destroyed America? If you answer to yourself yes to these queries, how would someone who does not share your racial antipathy gain traction on your beliefs and prejudices and presumptive conclusions?

Tell us. Tell us how The Hebrew Immigrant Aid Society served to destroy. Tell us what exactly was destroyed, or is significantly damaged or in the process of destruction. Tell us how you arrived at your judgement. Please do not assume that your judgement is common currency.

Preaching and covert propaganda are not the purposes of OL. Especially not to promote bigotry, for the love of Pete! This is a site devoted to reason and independent thinking. Where's the independence and where's the thinking in scapegoating Jews all over again?

I am willing to give Mark a hearing, should he wish to dispassionately explain his antipathy to the Joos and the Joo organizations noted above. If he can tell us how he came to view these organizations as contributing to the destruction of the country, great. But until that time, I support MSK shutting down threads that smell bad to his nose, and defer to his vision and his judgement of what is and should be cleared-for-takeoff here.

I am glad that Anti-Joo Airlines is currently grounded for inspection.

Here's a quote from a day when racial prejudice was free and open and in flight across the USA, from "The Passing of the Great Race; or, The racial basis of European history," by Madison Grant. My own prejudgment suggests that these words do not stink to the McFakeynamed ones.

A rigid system of selection through the elimination of those who are weak or unfit — in other words social failures — would solve the whole question in one hundred years, as well as enable us to get rid of the undesirables who crowd our jails, hospitals, and insane asylums. The individual himself can be nourished, educated and protected by the community during his lifetime, but the state through sterilization must see to it that his line stops with him, or else future generations will be cursed with an ever increasing load of misguided sentimentalism. This is a practical, merciful, and inevitable solution of the whole problem, and can be applied to an ever widening circle of social discards, beginning always with the criminal, the diseased, and the insane, and extending gradually to types which may be called weaklings rather than defectives, and perhaps ultimately to worthless race types.

Bill! This is not to the point, but so in tune with what I been thinking on on other threads, about parenthood and humanity and so on.

Usually shifts and strikes and unemployment let us look after the kids ourselves, but at some times we had babysitters and both were in our apartment building and both were outstanding.

Annette looked after Stu and gave him a good grounding in decorum . Shanna "the |Banana" her daughter was a child star in commercials, and her husband Orville appeared endlessly in Gold Bond commercials, although I never knew him to suffer from any foot itch in person.Annette was so influential that when I took Stu home, he would beg me to hide from her sight if he was not wearing his hat and mittens.

Yvonne had a severely retarded daughter, there is no other word. She was encephalic and lived in a beautiful spotless room, in a large crib where Andy would play and laugh with her, although she could not speak, or ever would learn to, and she enriched her mother's life, and Andy's and mine, through learning what we had not known before, how deep humanity is.

[Selene]

Hmm reminds me that I hate juice...

Prune juice

Just as rational as all sorts of other stupidity based on fear ,,,

A...

[moralist]

(God says to Abraham)

2 And I will make of you a great nation, and I will bless you with abundant increase of favors and make your name famous and distinguished, and you will be a blessing dispensing good to others.

3 And I will bless those who bless you and curse him who curses you; in you will all the families and kindred of the earth be blessed and by you they will bless themselves.

(Genesis 12:2.3)

The Jews are God's chosen people. They have blessed my life in uncountable ways, and I consider it an honor to serve them. Most people don't realize what they set into motion by their own actions. When they curse the Jews they're cursing their own life.

[Selene]

(God says to Abraham) 2 And I will make of you a great nation, and I will bless you with abundant increase of favors and make your name famous and distinguished, and you will be a blessing dispensing good to others. 3 And I will bless those who bless you and curse him who curses you; in you will all the families and kindred of the earth be blessed and by you they will bless themselves. (Genesis 12:2.3) The Jews are God's chosen people. They have blessed my life in uncountable ways, and I consider it an honor to serve them. Most people don't realize what they set into motion by their own actions. When they curse the Jews they're cursing their own life.

See I am confused by citing an old occult book and transporting it into a piece of evidence in our current arguments.

So essentially, you are offering, as a piece of evidence, the imaginations of folks from several thousand years ago?

[tmj]

And you like 'serving' people??

[Selene]

And you like 'serving' people??

Are you addressing me with that post?

[moralist]

(God says to Abraham) 2 And I will make of you a great nation, and I will bless you with abundant increase of favors and make your name famous and distinguished, and you will be a blessing dispensing good to others. 3 And I will bless those who bless you and curse him who curses you; in you will all the families and kindred of the earth be blessed and by you they will bless themselves. (Genesis 12:2.3) The Jews are God's chosen people. They have blessed my life in uncountable ways, and I consider it an honor to serve them. Most people don't realize what they set into motion by their own actions. When they curse the Jews they're cursing their own life.

See I am confused by citing an old occult book and transporting it into a piece of evidence in our current arguments.

It is definitely thousands of years old, and the meaning is certainly occult to some. And it elicits two basic antithetical reactions. Love or hate.

Rather than a response to anyone's arguments, it is just a description of a principle which I found to consistently ring true time and time again by my own direct personal life experience.

But since personal experience is purely anecdotal and not transferrable to others, you are perfectly free to offer your own life experience as proof of its invalidity for you.

[moralist]

And you like 'serving' people??

Yes.

It offers no end of personal satisfaction to be rewarded handsomely for literally making people's dreams real. It is the highest compliment for a Capitalist to be paid happily by a satisfied client.

[Serapis Bey]

Oh my goodness. I was originally hoping to set the record straight in this thread, but it appears *I* am the one who has been set straight by the collective efforts of you all. I do believe I have some egg on my face. With each halting effort to type out a defense of my position, I found myself set back on my heels by the sincere outpouring of feeling I find here. I am not yet prepared to accept the charge of "spite" and "hatred" MSK has imputed to me, but it is clear that I have some biases to overcome. What really floored me was the unison voice among former enemies here: the anarchist and the socialist, men and women, Jew and Gentile, American and Afrikanner. As a fan of the movie Independence Day, I was reminded of how ALL Americans in that film overlooked their petty differences and united in their common cause to defeat the alien enemy. I always found that touching. It is clear I have some soul searching to do...

SYKE!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zdCUpiI1MSA

Now, on to business...

I would like to preface my remarks with a full disclosure: my journey to the "Dark Side" began solely with my frustration as a citizen of Miami. For those who don't know, Miami was inundated with Cubans ever since the Mariel Boatlift in the early 80's. As of this writing, Cubans constitute a majority in the city. As someone who grew up during this demographic transformation, I can tell you: it SUCKS. (Details available upon request.) The point here is that while Cubans have much to recommend them, the sturm and drang involved in the clash of cultures is an object lesson in demographic replacement. I lived it. I understand it on a very intimate level. I know what happens when the proportion of immigrants in a given region reaches a critical mass and no longer assimilates because they have the numbers on their side. Unlike those eeeevul Muslims, Cubans are for the most part productive and hardworking. NEVERTHELESS, there are negative externalities associated with demographic replacement, to the point where Tom Tancredo once referred (rightly) to our local government as a "bananna republic." Corruption is rife and reflects the mores of Latin American countries.

I suspect the readers here who do not live in South Florida or Southern California are scratching their heads. They are too far removed from the gritty reality. It's all abstract at this point...for now. But give it time. Consider those two locales to be canaries in the coalmine of what will be playing in a theater near you if open immigration is left unchecked. I should point out that I am no Hitler Youth -- I am half white and half-hispanic. More interestingly, there are a plethora of immigrants from various South American countries in Miami and they ALL grumble under their breath about the dominance of the Cubans in the city. For the record, I would limit immigration to any given city to no more than 15 or 20 percent -- any more than that and a self-perpetuating cycle is started.

All of this is to say that when you begin to investigate the nature of immigration policy in America, you cannot but help encounter the hand of THE JEW in these affairs. I have linked elsewhere to Kevin MacDonald's classic essay on the matter. And so this is where I began my descent into the world of...

THE JEW

[to be continued]

[Serapis Bey]

The basic problem is not bigotry but general lack of individualism.

Does individualism prevent one from noticing patterns in nature? A rose by any other name is...some "stuff" by another name? Do I vitiate individualism when I note the Japanese are more introverted than Westerners? That the Italians are more exuberant than Scandinavians? That West Africans are better sprinters than Mexicans? Heaven forfend! I never knew that individualism meant I had to take every instance of reality before me as born anew each second from the head of Athena, fresh and unsullied by biological and historical circumstance.

I kid, I kid.

Brant, do you consider the fact that African Americans vote in favor of affirmative action over 90% a sign of collectivism? Does it make you a collectivist to notice that phenomenon? Perhaps each one of those African Americans did their best to reason their way to their position, and every single one of them, by way of poor logic, came to the exact same wrong conclusion.

Or does it make more sense to assume they were voting in favor of what they percieved to be their racial self-interest?

Don't let Principle cause you to miss the (collectivist) forest for the (individualistic) trees.

I should take a moment here to expound on the concept of individualism. Individualism is an idea inextricably bound to a certain time in history (19th-20th century), in a certain place (America), among a certain population ("ASPs"). Individualism is an historical anomaly. Let's give George H.Smith his due and note that individualism is also tied to a Christian tradition where each soul is considered sacred. That is a revolutionary concept in history.

You should familiarize yourself with Robert Putnam's work I have referenced in another thread. As a liberal, he was crestfallen when his research showed that diversity and pluralism resulted in the OPPOSITE of individualism. The strife produced by clashing mores in a pluralistic society led to people hunkering down into their respective clans. I believe he called it "turtling", in the way turtles draw their limbs inward under thier shells.

The reality which you Objectivists are loathe to accept is that individualism can only flourish when there is already a baseline of homogeneity and trust in the population. When diversity rises to a certain level, that trust is broken and we no longer have the phenomenon of exceptional individuals standing on the shoulders of their "brothers" to accomplish novel things -- people are too busy defending themselves against perceived threats.

Bringing this discussion back to THE JEW:

The lack of individualism amongst Jews and strong Jewish identity even with individualistic trending Jews is the result of a minority being put upon by a dominant majority through the centuries in forced ghettoization de facto and de jure even to the point of expulsion, terror and genocide.

Well it seems you have made my point for me. The ethnocentrism of Jews is considered by them as a necessary defense in a hostile world, but it is that same clannishness which causes them to advocate for pluralism in the societies in which they reside. If you bothered to read the article on neoconservativism I posted, you would have noticed the statement by the CEO of the Hebrew Immigrant Aid Society: "The more diverse American society is the safer [Jews] are." That's pretty much it in a nutshell.

In case that that doesn't register, this quote from Earl Raab (executive director of the Jewish Community Relations Council) should drive the point home:

The Census Bureau has just reported that about half of the American population will soon be non-white or non-European. And they will all be American citizens. We have tipped beyond the point where a Nazi-Aryan party will be able to prevail in this country. We [Jews] have been nourishing the American climate of opposition to ethnic bigotry for about half a century. That climate has not yet been perfected, but the heterogeneous nature of our population tends to make it irreversible …

It is quite understandable why the Jewish community would want to mold American society in a way that makes America more comfortable for Jews, but have they really given any thought to how their machinations effect the native population? Not likely.

[Serapis Bey]

Arguing antisemitism with an antisemite is as useful as arguing Christianity with a Christian. You can't defeat with logic an ideology that isn't based in logic in the first place.

I never realized my views on Jews constituted an "ideology". I thought I was simply pointing out facts about Jewish behavior. Have I advocated any normative prescriptions? I don't think so. If my facts are wrong, feel free to correct me. All I have seen on this forum are character assasinations and calls for censorship. Very few have chosen to engage me on the merits of my argument.

By the way, the reason you can't "defeat with logic an ideology that isnt based on logic" when it comes to Christians is because Christians make claims about the supernatural realm. Resurrection, the Holy Trinity, turning bread into wine, all that shit.

I'm an atheist and I deal in facts. Do me the favor of not lumping me into that group.

As we saw in the threads that were removed, the typical mode of argument is to cherrypick a laundry list of "Jewish" malefactors from throughout all of history. Compile your own equally long list of Jews who have positively contributed to the human condition and they're routinely written off as "exceptions" or their contributions are downplayed.

I don't recall that being the modus operandi here. You are completely mistaken if you think pointing out Friedman was a libertarian speaks to my (or Mark's) concerns. We are not engaged in some childish tit-for-tat debate over which ethnic group has more "points." If that were the case, you would be justified in listing "Good Jews". To my knowledge, no one on this forum has put forth the absurd proposition that Jews are ALL BAD. Mark has pointed out repeatedly that we are not speaking of Jews in totality. I would like to think this doesn't need to be spelled out (apparently it does). So your desperate pointing out of counter-examples misses the point.

Neither are we saying that on balance, Jews are a net negative (although I'm sure Mark could give you a good argument). I think I can speak for Mark when I say our beef lies with the outsized influence the organized Jewish community has relative to their numbers in the population. Mark and I are concerned with Organized Jewry and the leaders of such organizations. Kolker might prefer to focus on scientific discoveries, but Mark and I are thinking of Organized Jewry's influence on society and government. A very different thing.