"Romanticist Art" Is Not The Essence Of The Objectivist Esthetics

[Ellen Stuttle]

Roger,

I'm going out right now, but a quick note.

Notice I did not say sense of life is an invalid idea. Ellen says that it does not exist at all (if I understood her correctly).

Guys,

What I am saying is that I do not think that the mechanism Rand specifically says exists and calls by the name "sense of life" exists. This doesn't mean that I don't think there's anying kind of, vaguely like what she says.

See, what I think happens with people reading Rand's articles on art is that they resonate with parts of what she says and don't notice the fine print and don't notice the enormous claims she is making about the actions of a someTHING which she calls "the subconscious." She's turned subconscious processes into a kind of entity which operates as an internal record-keeper, integrator (according to a peculiar method which coughs up a "sum") and then rewarder/avenger while meanwhile controlling artistic production and response. I think that whole way of thinking of subconscious processes is mistaken - and that in thinking this way, Rand was making the same mistake which she and Branden excoriated Freud for making re the Freudian "unconscious."

Second, even if one reads her very loosely and takes her as merely talking about characteristic emotionality, I think it's factually untrue that there's any significant correlation between people's characteristic emotionality and their artistic productions and tastes. That's an issue which could be studied empirically.

~~~

But I get the feeling that I'm coming into the discussion a bit late, like the train shipping out Rand's concept of sense of life has already left the station, and that her and Branden's idea has already been judged to be more like "phlogiston" or "elan vitae" than one recognizing a legitimate psychological phenomenon. If so, so be it.

REB

Interesting that you used an analogy to "phlogiston." I've thought numerous times in regard to Tony's posts that he seems to react as if he's an advocate of the "phlogiston" theory who interprets criticisms of that theory as claims that combustion doesn't exist.

I think that some of what Rand talks about does occur. Certainly I think that art is of major importance to human existence and fills important psychological needs (note, needs, plural). The devil is in the details.

Regarding Nathaniel's having a "blindspot" on "sense of life" - a question you asked in post #446 - I think the subject of art isn't one which he paid that much attention to and that he, like others, overlooks the fine print in Rand's presentations.

All I have time for tonight. Sorry to be brief.

Ellen

[Newberry]

What were the OO people, and what were you, taking to be the meaning of "Man" in Rand's "Man's Life"?

I take her meaning to be an entity which I consider imaginary - "a being of volitional consciousness" - which being doesn't include all humans but only those who have activated a particular form of consciousness.

So possibly "Man's Life" would be considered the correct standard of beauty, though I don't see how it could be for esthetic merit in the technical sense (how well executed an art work is).

Ellen

I think you get explicitly volitional individuals and implicitly volitional ones, but either way, like it or not, know it or not, man is a

being of volitional consciousness: all men, for all time. So Ellen, I can't agree with it being this exclusionary, for a "particular form

of consciousness", though I'd accept a continuum between both ends.

That man can and must develop the contents of his concepts, and choose his purpose and character - through effort - necessitates that he has entities, concretized in art forms, to show him that his efforts will be rewarded. An artwork is an end in itself as he is, representing the value-judgments of its artist, as his life does..

I don't recall if Rand put it this way, but Romanticist art, by showing what man is capable of being ("should" be), bridges the is-ought gap, enabling him to do the same.

J. I'm missing something. If Romanticist art is not the essence of O'ist aesthetics, what else is?

Interesting all above. Creating art and living life feel very similar, with the difference that an artwork becomes a thing in itself, while in life we have segments of goals completed, or experiences, but they are part of the bigger picture of one's own life.

[Newberry]

Reverting to post #21....

At the moment just continuing with the point I was trying to make and leaving off the particulars of your discussion with OO people.

"Beauty is a personal-preference response, just as pleasure is."

They may be personal in a personal sense, but not in creating art. What makes something beautiful or pleasurable goes through years of study and tweaking every aesthetic tool to find the balance.

[Jules Troy]

Hello Michael.

[Newberry]

I think there's a special trick to appreciating Romanticism - fiction especially- and that is to read with double vision: at the level of explicit reality (actions by the protagonists, and so on) AND at the level of metaphysical abstraction both together.

Go one way, and it falls into the hole of dull 'literalism' - like following a text-book, you recall I argued with an ultra-literalist on O.O - and going the other, becomes airy-fairy rationalism. (So bad boy Roark is an individual-rights transgressing fraud whom Rand should have had locked up because Rand told us that you must never initiate force.Blah-blah.)

Its about the IS and the OUGHT, that Romanticism bridges. Also about the life of one man and equally life of all men ever.

Happy endings are not indicative of Romaticism, so long as the character's life was purposeful and their own.

The better known AS has such a finale, in the second-last sentence Rand ever wrote in fiction: "The road is cleared", said Galt. "We are going back to the world".

I like it.

[Newberry]

She went on to ask (in effect) "why, art?" what purpose, art? And then, distilled the essence of why man needs art, beyond beauty, plots, thematics, characterization, or that thing we call 'meaning'.

[Newberry]

What is a "sense of life" and how can it objectively and accurately be determined by a second party?

One example I can think of, is when your partner climaxes and you know it was the real deal.

[Selene]

What is a "sense of life" and how can it objectively and accurately be determined by a second party?

One example I can think of, is when your partner climaxes and you know it was the real deal.

Good example...

[Jules Troy]

Reminds me of that scene from When Harry met Sally.

"I'll have what she's having".

?

[Newberry]

Reminds me of that scene from When Harry met Sally.

"I'll have what she's having".

Haha, apt.

[Jules Troy]

I paint with my camera. (Pretty sure Ayn Rand wouldn't call that art). I am working on that though.

http://jestephotography.deviantart.com/art/Gyrfalcon-Pounce-513422312

I think I am on the right track, 2 people commented referring this to being like a ballet dance.

[Selene]

I paint with my camera. (Pretty sure Ayn Rand wouldn't call that art). I am working on that though.

http://jestephotography.deviantart.com/art/Gyrfalcon-Pounce-513422312

I think I am on the right track, 2 people commented referring this to being like a ballet dance.

Yes, or a Kata, as a ritual form.

However, all I thought of is, "that is one dead pigeon."

Beautiful work J.

A...

[Jules Troy]

Yup it is! I missed the strike but got another capture of her with it in talons as well as her reaching between her legs to deliver the neck killing bite. I have not processed them yet.

[Selene]

Yup it is! I missed the strike but got another capture of her with it in talons as well as her reaching between her legs to deliver the neck killing bite. I have not processed them yet.

You are clearly being rewarded by your passion and thanks for sharing it with us.

[Jules Troy]

My wife jokes with me "I could have bought a damn car with how much I spent on my camera/lenses ?"

[Selene]

My wife jokes with me "I could have bought a damn car with how much I spent on my camera/lenses "

Yeah yeah ... what is her passion?

[Jules Troy]

Me!

[Selene]

Me!

Thought that would be it...an accessory, before, during and after lol

[Newberry]

I paint with my camera. (Pretty sure Ayn Rand wouldn't call that art). I am working on that though.

http://jestephotography.deviantart.com/art/Gyrfalcon-Pounce-513422312

I think I am on the right track, 2 people commented referring this to being like a ballet dance.

I particularly like this one: http://jestephotography.deviantart.com/art/Osprey-Deadly-Intent-480841637The forms of the wings are awesome and I have never seen a bird that way before. About the art part I am looking forward to seeing how Kahmi discusses photography.

[anthony]

I particularly like this one: http://jestephotography.deviantart.com/art/Osprey-Deadly-Intent-480841637The forms of the wings are awesome and I have never seen a bird that way before.

Outstanding Jules. Your best so far, to me.

[Brant Gaede]

I particularly like this one: http://jestephotography.deviantart.com/art/Osprey-Deadly-Intent-480841637The forms of the wings are awesome and I have never seen a bird that way before.

Outstanding Jules. Your best so far, to me.

Is the idea to take a broad shot then crop it down with the high quality lens maintaining the clarity and detail?

--Brant

[anthony]

I guess the way it happened Jules likelier shot it in the wider horizontal format, then cropped the picture vertically, afterwards. (Jules?) And quite right, the advantage with a superb lens and large camera sensor, one can crop in and enlarge quite substantially with little loss of res and acutance.

[Selene]

acutance.

Ok Tony, no fair using alien tongues!

This is from a search on that word. Acutance.net[ http://www.acutance.net/sample-page/'>http://www.acutance.net/sample-page/ ]. http://www.acutance.net/

This site’s name ‘acutance’ comes from the days of film photography. One definition of acutance is “the density gradient across an edge separating light from darkness” and represents the perceived sharpness of an image. Because the large format discussion forum had been devout in terms of the sanctity of large format photography – to the point of forbidding any discussion of images captured on any ‘lesser’ formats – it was decided that the new group would focus on the image, rather than the equipment used to capture it. In other words, Acutance dot Net is equipment-agnostic! The term acutance is somewhat symbolic of this importance of the image over the equipment used to capture it.

Dictionary definition:

acutance (əˈkjuːtəns) n

1. (Photography) a physical rather than subjective measure of the sharpness of a photographic image

A...

[anthony]

acutance.

Ok Tony, no fair using alien tongues!

This is from a search on that word. Acutance.net[ http://www.acutance.net/sample-page/'>http://www.acutance.net/sample-page/ ]. http://www.acutance.net/

This site’s name ‘acutance’ comes from the days of film photography. One definition of acutance is “the density gradient across an edge separating light from darkness” and represents the perceived sharpness of an image. Because the large format discussion forum had been devout in terms of the sanctity of large format photography – to the point of forbidding any discussion of images captured on any ‘lesser’ formats – it was decided that the new group would focus on the image, rather than the equipment used to capture it. In other words, Acutance dot Net is equipment-agnostic! The term acutance is somewhat symbolic of this importance of the image over the equipment used to capture it.

Dictionary definition:

acutance (əˈkjuːtəns) n

1. (Photography) a physical rather than subjective measure of the sharpness of a photographic image

A...

Hey Adam, that's dating me! Ancient but still valid (...terminology).

[Selene]

acutance.

Ok Tony, no fair using alien tongues!

This is from a search on that word. Acutance.net[ http://www.acutance.net/sample-page/'>http://www.acutance.net/sample-page/ ]. http://www.acutance.net/

This site’s name ‘acutance’ comes from the days of film photography.

Hey Adam, that's dating me! Ancient but still valid (...terminology).

Lol - I thought that line would stir up some reaction...

< Jules >