Alex Jones' propaganda wars

[KacyRay]

There's an article on CNN about the body of a college student that was found - a student who has been missing since mid-March.

The student is Sunil Tripathi. You might recognize that name as the name of someone who was falsely accused of the Boston Marathon bombings.

Look at this article on Alex Jones' website "infowars"... where his crack team of 4chan super-sleuths identifies this missing college kid Sunil Tripathi as the culprit.

"“The fact that Sunil Tripathi’s information was able to be dug up so quickly by 4Chan’s community and posted hours before the police even managed to engage Sunil in Watertown shows the lightning fast capabilities of alternative news and the internet at large,” writes Anthony Gucciardi. “This is why the mainstream media is failing to hold an audience and experiencing dwindling statistics while alternative news sources that capture the pulse of ongoing investigation manage to come out on top.”"

Notice that the article is still up almost a week after the true bombers have been identified, a day after this falsely accused kid has been found dead, with no retraction and no indication that this information has been shown to be false or updated?

Just another example of the standard of "information" these people have, and how little respect they have for the truth or for other human beings.

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Kacy,

Oh for God's sake.

Everybody knows Alex Jones is over the top.

Is there a point to opening a whole thread just to bash Alex Jones?

Are you trying to find someone to play "Alex Jones sucks," "No he doesn't," "Yes he does," "No he doesn't," and so on?

Or the variation, "You say Alex Jones sucks? Well Media Matters sucks," "Yeah, but Alex Jones sucks worse," "No, Media Matters sucks worse," No, Alex Jones sucks worse," "No, Media Matters sucks worse," and so on.

Good Lord.

I don't mind talking propaganda, but this?

Jeez, the level dropped...

Michael

[KacyRay]

Heh... well...

I'm not so sure everyone knows that. But, okay...

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Kacy,

We have one dude I let ride because he literally has a severe medical condition.

I'm trying to hold you to a higher standard. One I hold myself to. This is because I believe we can have some very fruitful discussions and disagreements that will not only enrich our lives due to different perspectives argued intelligently, but be interesting for the readers as well.

I can back off, if you like, and just let the propaganda and cheap shots run. But I sense a hunger in you for intelligent engagement and a balanced spirit capable of doing it right. I hope I am not mistaken.

If I am, OK. it doesn't have to be this way.

It's all good.

Michael

[KacyRay]

I think that Jones is running a very successful propaganda campaign, the seeds of which find their way into many other sources.

Propaganda and cheap shots? It is not propaganda to point out propaganda - in fact it's informative. I'll tell you that, until about 6-8 months ago, I didn't know who Alex Jones was. Until not long ago, I didn't know about the infowars website. I've met some kooky conspiracy theorists before, but I didn't realize how engrained in our culture it is.

I have no interest in discussing anything that isn't of general interest to the group I'm having a conversation with, so no... my purpose was not to propagate or take cheap shots. I sure don't think it's a cheap shot to cast light on the ways and methods of such a sinister misinformation campaign, but if this is old news, then alright... my mistake.

I'll tell you what struck me most about that article (and the reason I quoted it) is the statement "This is why the mainstream media is failing to hold an audience and experiencing dwindling statistics while alternative news sources that capture the pulse of ongoing investigation manage to come out on top."

I thought that statement, and the irony found in the fact that it was in support of an outright falsehood, had some applicability, particularly in light of our friend dennis saying that "it does not impress when you cut yourself off from information" (not an exact quote).

And I thought it was a useful illustration of what some people consider "information". Read my OP again and you'll see that this was the point I was driving at.

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Kacy,

The problem is in the doing, not just the saying.

You correctly say that "it is not propaganda to point out propaganda - in fact it's informative."

But I submit if a person has a habit of only being "informative" about the propaganda monkey-shines of one side of a propaganda war, then that "informative" stuff itself is propaganda.

For instance, if a person who is quick to bash Alex Jones does not see the smear campaign that was done to Sarah Palin (for one example) in the same light, but instead gives it a pass, I do not find the interest to be to inform. It's to propagate the agenda.

And even then, propaganda always contains seeds of true information. The real deal that excites me is to ferret out what truth there is and uncover the propaganda techniques as a kind of case study.

To this effect, I find value in Alex Jones, Media Matters and all the other exaggerated sites out there. Often these folks go where others do not and uncover things that should not remain in the shadows. You just have to take them for what they are and check everything with other sources before accepting it and passing it on.

As to bias, I have no problem about leaning one way or the other. We all do and I don't find any sin in that. But leaning is one thing and falling squarely on one side of a vicious polarity to the point of practicing propaganda on the general reader is another.

I'm not saying you do this, but this thread sure looks like what a Progressive propagandist would do.

Here on OL, we have people from several ideological starting points--not only do we have Randians, we have socialists, a professed Christian, a Muslim, and God knows what all else. However, the bar I try to encourage is discussion and engagement, not scapegoating and preaching.

It's been a pretty good formula so far.

Michael

[Guyau]

.

Kacy is here to me a breath of fresh air. Radiantly sound.

[KacyRay]

Thanks Stephen.

MSK - I'll keep it in mind. Thanks.

[Brant Gaede]

.

Kacy is here to me a breath of fresh air. Radiantly sound.

Gee. Where does that leave me? In an intellectual wheelchair with halitosis?

--Brant

I want what Johnny got!

[caroljane]

.

Kacy is here to me a breath of fresh air. Radiantly sound.

Gee. Where does that leave me? In an intellectual wheelchair with halitosis?

--Brant

I want what Johnny got!

No, no Brant. The wheelchair is a triumphal chariot, and the halitosis is from the slave whispering in your ear.

[Selene]

.

Kacy is here to me a breath of fresh air. Radiantly sound.

Gee. Where does that leave me? In an intellectual wheelchair with halitosis?

--Brant

I want what Johnny got!

No, no Brant. The wheelchair is a triumphal chariot, and the halitosis is from the slave whispering in your ear.

Now there is Carol at her best, as, an artful, Aparachick [sp ?]...

You go girl!

A...

[caroljane]

.

Kacy is here to me a breath of fresh air. Radiantly sound.

Gee. Where does that leave me? In an intellectual wheelchair with halitosis?

--Brant

I want what Johnny got!

No, no Brant. The wheelchair is a triumphal chariot, and the halitosis is from the slave whispering in your ear.

Now there is Carol at her best, as, an artful, Aparachick [sp ?]...

You go girl!

A...

Thanks Adam! The spelling is brilliant. I do feel on my game recently, like the Leafs! Four CDN teams in playoffs, Rangers and Islanders both, ... can't hardly wait.

[Selene]

Thanks Adam! The spelling is brilliant. I do feel on my game recently, like the Leafs! Four CDN teams in playoffs, Rangers and Islanders both, ... can't hardly wait.

The coach of the Rangers is being compared with someone between the fired Rutgers coach and Ghengis Khan, in terms of how he interfaces with the troops!

[caroljane]

Thanks Adam! The spelling is brilliant. I do feel on my game recently, like the Leafs! Four CDN teams in playoffs, Rangers and Islanders both, ... can't hardly wait.

The coach of the Rangers is being compared with someone between the fired Rutgers coach and Ghengis Khan, in terms of how he interfaces with the troops!

Ah, Tortorella - That comparison is too unkind to Genghis Khan!

[Guyau]

.

No, Brant, you also give me the impression of being square-headed (a plus in my book).

[dldelancey]

To this effect, I find value in Alex Jones, Media Matters and all the other exaggerated sites out there. Often these folks go where others do not and uncover things that should not remain in the shadows. You just have to take them for what they are and check everything with other sources before accepting it and passing it on.

The danger is that for every MSK who relishes source-checking, there exists a multitude of non-MSKs who don't care a flip about checking sources. In fact, it would not even occur to many to do so. To those who would question, there are many who would just rather have some freaking place they can go to get sound news without having to track it down themselves.

But then, I never heard of Alex Jones before this post, so maybe I don't have a dawg in this fight.

[Serapis Bey]

As to bias, I have no problem about leaning one way or the other. We all do and I don't find any sin in that. But leaning is one thing and falling squarely on one side of a vicious polarity to the point of practicing propaganda on the general reader is another.

I'm not saying you do this, but this thread sure looks like what a Progressive propagandist would do.

Well said, and I quite agree. Kacy's had this pointed out to him by myself and others in the past, and left us scratching our heads. I tell you Mike, something just ain't right with that boy. On his propaganda arm...er...I mean, Facebook page, one would find an endless stream of "Beck this" and "Limbaugh that", "Palin this" and "O'Reilly that"; now Alex Jones will be added to that list, one presumes.

Kacy Ray, welcome to This Is Your Life. Can you identify the individual who once said this on your Facebook post?

[from behind the curtain]:

---------------------------------

Media Matters? Just change "political views" on your page to "liberal" and be done with this middle-aged political identity crisis already.

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So you're against welfare... Yet you still spend 90% of your political energy blasting conservatives and libertarians and using your social network to circulate liberal propaganda videos. Beck is a dope, but so are most people in this country and that's why he resonates with them. He has done more to turn people against big government than perhaps anyone in the past century and you constantly attack him - why? Turn your energy against the Progressives in this country who preach that the ends justify the means in achieving their Utopian vision of social justice.

I have to assume that this anti-conservative crusade of yours has to do with the "religious right" that you detest so much, because there is no other explanation for it. At the risk of sounding like a Randroid, it is worse than irrational to rally against a group that agrees with 70% of your platform while dangerous radicals who agree with 10% of your platform are successfully hijacking every level of our government, it is self-destructive. Religion has been steadily declining for the past 80 years, it doesn't need your help over the edge. I know it scarred you when you were a kid, but get over it. There are plenty of blubbery black whales to be slaughtered while you chase after that elusive white one.

----------------------------

We live in a democratic society. It's a cruel system and an arbitrary system, but it's what we have.The fact is that Glenn Beck and Sarah Palin are successfully convincing millions of voting morons across our nation to fear big government. This is a GOOD THING. Meanwhile, you have hateful socialist zealots like Keith Olbermann and Rachel Maddow on the other side of the debate, urging people each and every day to sign their rights away to a leviathan nanny state and to bow down to an intellectual ruling class (themselves). You leave them to their evil works, and focus exclusively on Beck and Palin. This is what is so puzzling.

Yes, Beck is a fearmonger. He tells lies. He says silly things. He is religious. He is a hypocrite. He is an entertainer. But would you rather live in his world or a warped progressive commune of a country in which bureaucrats decide how much grain should cost and how much doctors should be paid? Beck resorts to the lowest common denominator to get his message out because it works. Let him beat back collectivism on that most basic level, he's doing a good job.

[KacyRay]

SB - if you're point is that, despite their lunacy, Beck and Palin are somehow doing us a favor because they're on an anti-big-government crusade then I, once again, have to wonder what planet you're living on here.

To assert that Palin, Beck, Limbaugh, or any of those hard-right-wingers are against big government requires a feat of evasion so powerful that I have to wonder if your fingers can even be dislodged from your ears at this point.

Beck, who routinely has revisionist theocrats like David Barton on his show, would be very happy to turn the USA into the United States of Jesus. So would Palin.

They are not encouraging an uprising against big government. They are encouraging an uprising of government. I only wish you could spend a week in the world they would love to create for you. I'd love to hear what you had to say then.

If you wonder why I spend more time vilifying them than I do those on the other side of the aisle, it's only because every time I've explained it to you, you shrug it off as liberal propaganda from a liberal propagandist.

Apparently your definition of "propaganda" is "Any statement, demonstration, or material supporting a position with which you (SB) do not agree"

"But would you rather live in his world or a warped progressive commune of a country in which bureaucrats decide how much grain should cost and how much doctors should be paid?"

Neither. But I fear Beck's world a whole lot more. If you don't, then you can have it.

Let him beat back collectivism on that most basic level, he's doing a good job.

What in the world makes you think Beck is beating back collectivism? He's a collectivist on the most basic, sinister level. He would turn this country into a theocracy in a heartbeat if he could. Although I'm sure you think that would be find as long as you could spend your money, you might wake up to a surprise when you're getting arrested in your bedroom one night when the internet cops found porn on your laptop. Try spending all that untaxed money while you're in prison for trying to live as a free human being.

[Robert Baratheon]

Several years ago, I was listening to a segment of Free Talk Live when the topic of conspiracy theories arose in the discussion. After weighing the issues, the hosts told the caller, "There are many ways to come to the ideas of liberty. It's a different path for everyone. If Alex Jones brought you to the ideas of liberty, then he has served a useful purpose." (I am paraphrasing.)

One word in the title of this thread is particularly fitting: "war." There is an ideological war being waged in our society between competing collectivist and individualist philosophies. It is the critical economic, political, and social conflict of our time. Progressives and their intellectual allies are doing real, measurable damage to our public and private cultural institutions. They are busily - and quite successfully - electing to all levels of government politicians who view markets as tools of oppression to be eradicated in the name of "social justice," replaced with their own warped designs and central economic planning.

We don't always like our allies. We don't always approve of their methods. But if they bring men and banners to our cause, we should be welcoming their contributions instead of ridiculing the horse they rode in on.

[dennislmay]

"But would you rather live in his world or a warped progressive commune of a country in which bureaucrats decide how much grain should cost and how much doctors should be paid?"

...I fear Beck's world a whole lot more.

One country left in the world that has any chance of beating back authoritarian socialism from sweeping the globe. It is 11:55 on the clock to midnight for that effort to fail. Yet nearly impotent religion(s) [multiple competing religions] in the conservative movement are the big fear when the nation was founded by far more religious people than what exist in the population today? Your priorities are extremely out of bounds. When I see you spending 95% of your efforts against Progressives and authoritarian socialism I might take the effort to listen to the minor concern religions pose at this final hour before freedom leaves the Earth. Every time I hear any objectivist worrying more about religion than authoritarian socialism I have to wonder what bubble they have been living in.

Dennis

[dennislmay]

"But would you rather live in his world or a warped progressive commune of a country in which bureaucrats decide how much grain should cost and how much doctors should be paid?"

...I fear Beck's world a whole lot more.

One country left in the world that has any chance of beating back authoritarian socialism from sweeping the globe. It is 11:55 on the clock to midnight for that effort to fail. Yet nearly impotent religion(s) [multiple competing religions] in the conservative movement are the big fear when the nation was founded by far more religious people than what exist in the population today? Your priorities are extremely out of bounds. When I see you spending 95% of your efforts against Progressives and authoritarian socialism I might take the effort to listen to the minor concern religions pose at this final hour before freedom leaves the Earth. Every time I hear any objectivist worrying more about religion than authoritarian socialism I have to wonder what bubble they have been living in.

Dennis

If you want to worry about religions, worry about those that embrace authoritarian socialism - Liberation Theology and Islam.

Dennis

[Guyau]

Dennis,

Your view that this is the "final hour before liberty leaves the earth" is fantastical, not in balance. Freedom is all around us, and its principles in our legal system are alive in the minds of our judiciary. Yes, we face serious challenges to future material liberty due to federal debt, but within the financial constraints of meeting that burden, this country is going to remain very free.

Stephen

[dennislmay]

Dennis,

Your view that this is the "final hour before liberty leaves the earth" is fantastical, not in balance. Freedom is all around us, and its principles in our legal system are alive in the minds of our judiciary. Yes, we face serious challenges to future material liberty due to federal debt, but within the financial constraints of meeting that burden, this country is going to remain very free.

Stephen

46 cents of every federal dollar spent is printed or borrowed. Half of the citizens are on the teat. When the scheme explodes - as they have designed it to do - freedom will be replaced by food riots in the streets, burning and looting. Then where will freedom still exist except in pockets here and there?

Dennis

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

... I fear Beck's world a whole lot more. If you don't, then you can have it.

Kacy,

I for one will take it.

I've been in Glenn's world.

Kat and I went to the Restoring Honor rally in Washington DC.

Not one arrest. No incidents.

We left the place cleaner than we found it.

I felt really good around all those people.

Gentle people, even the many military folks who were there.

Yeah...

Now that I remember,

I really, really, really like that world.

Michael

[Robert Baratheon]

Yes, we face serious challenges to future material liberty due to federal debt, but within the financial constraints of meeting that burden, this country is going to remain very free.

The challenges extend far beyond federal debt, which is actually public debt, owed by you and me, our children, and our children's children. Utilitarians, such as progressives, are quick to accept collectivist redistribution as a price that must be paid to stave off violence against us from the lower classes. The immediate problem, even within this framework - and as always happens in collectivist systems - is that the "price" we must pay has been increasing at an exponential rate as more and more become dependent upon the self-perpetuating political spoils system that feeds and incentivises them. One need only examine what has developed with SSDI over the past 15 years: recipients have more than doubled in both real and percentage terms, now over 10 million Americans. A trivial number of these individuals are actually so disabled they can't perform meaningful work, yet all are now living off of quite-generous government checks for the rest of their lives while producing nothing in return. It is the expanding administrative state and its progressive enthusiasts that have expanded this system of producers and takers to an alarming degree over the past decade.

Kacy's laser-like focus on the religious, Alex Jones, Glenn Beck and the like is misplaced at best and destructive at worst. He is free to disagree with religious views or conspiracy theories, and as such, they pose little real threat to him or his standard of living. Conversely, he is not free to "disagree" to hand over an ever-increasing portion of his income to the state, or to live under the mandates and restrictions of socialized insurance and health care. He is not free to live in a society which passes roughly 40,000 new federal, state, and municipal laws every year, all of which he is "on notice" for and must be in compliance. Whatever else Alex Jones may believe, he is an opponent of this systematic encroachment on our individualism. If we are going to publicly ridicule and shame these entertainers - who are in no way intended for Kacy's audience in the first place - then we should focus on those pundits who are actively promoting expansion of the administrative and welfare state rather than opposing it, even if they do so from a religious standpoint that Kacy happens to find distasteful.