Should I let my parents force me into going to church?

Evan · March 25, 2013

I am 16, and have been an Atheist ever since first reading The Fountainhead 2 years ago. I have told my parents before but they seemed to just let it go as a childhood passing. But now, they want me to go to church for Easter and I have told them I do not want to go. They paid for a ticket at the dinner as well, and I told them that I would pay for the ticket if I didn't have to go. Since I am still a minor should I let them force me into going? I really find it harmful to me.

Selene · March 25, 2013

Without breaking into Julie Andrews songs from the Sound of Music, I would, from some personal exeriences, suggest that you shut your mouth and go to church, and observe, evaliate and butress your mental strenghts.

A...

Post script: Welcome to OL

Life will not get easier, regarding decisions.

However, you will get stronger by making decisions in areas that you control.

anthony · March 25, 2013

Got it finally: "You are sixteen, going on seventeen..."

Welcome, Evan.

Adam put it straight and true. Sounds old-fashioned, but as long as you live with your

parents etc etc - put a brave face on it, and go along, I suggest.

Think about what you feel bothered by, about church, rituals and all of it. How comfortable are you with being atheist? It's early days for you. (Just don't become one of those angry atheists who have nothing else to stand for, but to pick on religious folk, out of their own self-doubts.)

Michael Stuart Kelly · March 25, 2013

Evan,

Welcome to OL.

Let me answer your question first by referring you to another place.

Here on OL the emphasis is on independent thinking, not how to behave or make others behave correctly. Look up Diana Hsieh on Google and you will find a place where people calling themselves Objectivists are brimming over with advice on what you should do, how you should do it, etc.

Your request did touch something in my heart, however, so let me offer you some thoughts.

The first is that your problem has very little to do with religion, which you seem to have resolved in your mind, and everything to do with who is in control, you or your parents. You are at an age where this is a strong issue. You're finally coming into your own mature volition and, understandably, you want to exercise it--especially on the important matters in life.

I know how you feel because I put several states between my family and me by going to college, then I put an entire continent (I lived in Brazil for over 30 years). Part of my motivation was to escape what I perceived as irrational controls of my behavior by my parents and all the bickering that ensued going from my teens into my early twenties.

Another point is that I had a BS detector for hypocrisy and I constantly judged my parents as hypocrites. I judged the entire generation that way.

I have a different view of all that now. People often ask if you could do it all over again, would you? Then you are supposed to appear wise by responding, no. Not one detail.

Well there is a whole lot of things I would do differently if I had the chance. A butt-load.

One of them would be to figure out how to cherish my parents in a way that worked in my situation. They were not easy people to love for a person of my disposition. For example, when I told them I was an atheist, as I had discovered Ayn Rand around your age (I was actually 18 at the time), I got a cup of hot coffee, saucer and all, in my face. That's a really thorny issue for teenager. Most of all, it hurt my feelings badly, although I would have happily died 10 deaths at the time before I admitted it.

If I knew then what I know now, I would have known on a gut level what I knew merely as a vague idea--that after I leave my parent's home and financial dependence, I would be able to do exactly as I please on things like religion. Then I might not have seen it as an issue of control, but more one of waiting a bit. Sort of like waiting for graduation to finally get out of high-school.

Then I might have realized that I did not need their approval to think through my convictions, nor would I have expected them to understand where I was at. Believe me, I tried to get them to read Rand. I was successful to a point, but what they did read of her, they did not respond in the same manner I did. I couldn't understand it back then. I do now.

But not needing their approval would have been my big revelation. I wish I had known how to separate my intellectual development so I could feel that way back then. It would have made life so much easier and pleasant without compromising my values. I would have been able to sit before strongly religious people when I was around them and simply know that I was in their world, but they were not in mine. Thus, I would have acted like a guest to them, not like the Rand-missionary I tried to be back then. It would have been simple for me to give up hostility in that frame.

The benefit of this would have led me to discover ways to cherish love with my parents without including them in my intellectual world. After all these years, I can tell you from the bottom of my heart that this leaves a deep hole if you don't get it. I realize that it's not all my fault, but I also realize that the hole is there. It exists. I didn't know something back then, but now I do. You don't need the intellectual world to share love with your parents.

I was fortunate to live with my parents recently--for three years. This was after not seeing them for over three decades. My mother, who has since passed away, had turned deeply religious and would watch TV evangelists for hours. Sometimes I would sit with her. Of course, I didn't believe what those folks were preaching and, when it would get ridiculous (like a dude named Benny Hinn who would cause people to "faint" on stage just by touching them), I would playfully tease my mother--light stuff, not heavy or long. And she would tell me to behave with mock anger. Light teasing from her. We shared those moments of goodwill. The love flowed. The memory of that is now more precious to me than all my preaching of Rand in my youth combined.

I recently watched a YouTube video of a family who left the Mormon Church. The father was an elder, so their leaving was a big deal. This kind of change is traumatic and I wondered what they would say and what caused them to leave. I am interested in cults, hence I like to look at things of this nature when I run across them.

The wife told this story. She said when they decided to leave, they called their own families over for supper. They announced to all that they had something to say and it was important. They said they were going to leave the Mormon faith. Her own mother didn't believe her. But after a long time talking and listening and discussing and questioning, her mother stopped. Then she asked, "Does this mean you are going to stop judging me?" And tears came to the wife's eyes. She said it broke her heart.

She realized what an ass she had been for years because she had been using the church as a standard to judge what should have been love for her mother.

The expression "to judge" in this context does not mean merely making a value identification, then accepting it or rejecting it for your own life. It means looking at someone else and condemning them in the name of [FILL IN THE BLANK}.

I know exactly what this woman felt like. It choked me up a bit, too. I had condemned my own parents in the name of reason and put over 30 years between us. And though I managed to recover some love during the three years I stayed with them--mostly because I stopped condemning them and just accepted them for who they were--I am sad because I didn't learn how to love them like this--to love them correctly--when I was younger. As old habits die hard, I moved on after the three years. This time, though, not from condemnation. But because some of the things in their lives were so out of alignment with mine, I had to move on to keep peace in the family, including my own peace of mind.

So I was not around when my mother passed. And now my father is too senile for closeness. He's in an old-people's home.

And what did I gain from it all? A broken heart. That's what. A hole in my soul with a crumb of love at the bottom where there should have been an abundance of rich living.

So what would I do if I were you? I'll tell you, but not because I like to do this sort of thing. I am merely mentioning it to give you perspective, more information. Maybe I can help you avoid one of life's big booby-traps. Ultimately, it's your life. You make your own decisions and you have your own perspective, situation, and a body of experience--and all that is different than mine.

But I would go ahead and go to church with your parents. I would go as a guest. I would tell them that I would go, not because I believed in God, but because I loved them and this seems to be important to them. This would also mean that if anyone asked me if I was saved and so on at the service, I would politely tell them I am not a Christian. I would also do the same with my parents.

I would not preach Rand as I would be in guest mode in the house of another. And if they insisted on trying to save me, I would tell them I appreciate their interest in me, but I have to find my own way. If anyone showed interest in why I was not a Christian, I would tell them I would be happy to discuss this with them, but not in the house of Christian worship. That would make me an inelegant guest. We would have to find somewhere else for that.

This way, I would keep my intellectual independence and development, I would foster and cherish the love with my parents, and I would not be a hypocrite to myself.

I could also use the down-time during the service to observe people, mull over ideas, daydream and even meditate. Generally, people at church are good people, so the emotional vibes tend to be good, and the music is pretty if you let it in.

That's more than I wanted to say, but there it is. Other people might have other perspectives.

Good luck to you.

Michael

BaalChatzaf · March 25, 2013

As long as they are feeding you, clothing you and housing you, you will have to put up with some inconvenience. Your day is coming. When you can earn your own keep you are a free man.

Ba'al Chatzaf

Selene · March 25, 2013

Lol.

Love you Tony, Was not sure that anyone could sort through that rhetorical puzzle.

At any rate, Evan, just use this part of your life to observe incoming information.

You can chose to enjoy church as an art form. It does have it's beauty.

Employ it to your advantage.

A...

anthony · March 25, 2013

Yes. I still remember fondly those old Anglican hymns.

Churches are often beautiful. (In honour of the men who built them and the spirit of man.)

Selene · March 25, 2013

Precisely Tony...

I finally found a Latin Mass in my town and I completely enjoy the beauty and joy of it.

A...

Brant Gaede · March 25, 2013

Mike82ARP · March 25, 2013

Hi Evan:

Welcome to OL. I would read Michael’s thoughtful post...and then read it again.

I’ll give you my perspective as a Christian who subscribes to most of what Objectivism teaches.

I grew up Roman Catholic, went to RC school, was an altar boy, etc. When I was about your age, I saw the hypocrisy of the RC church and quit going. My parents allowed this probably because they saw the hypocrisy too, but in their traditional upbringing would not leave the church. In later years they only went to Christmas and Easter services. About 15 years later, right about the time I was completing grad school, I became a Christian and now 27 years later still attend church every week. I also stay aware of the goings on in other churches and read a good bit of theology. I abhor then fundamentalist, altrusitic, legalistic, pentacostal, mystical/sensational types of churches which most atheists erroneously think is normative of Christianity.

I have 4 adopted children- 13 yo twin boys, and 2 recently arrived Russian sisters, ages 12 and 8. They attend church every Sunday at this time and enjoy it, but I have not pushed the boys into becoming “members”. I will leave that decision to them. If when they are older and they wish to stop going to church, I will want to know their reasons why and expect a rational explanation (not so they can play with their iPods), but will not force them to attend or change my feeling for them if they stop going (there are theological reasons for this that I will not go into).

Unfortunately, not all parents think the same. I’ve known of some ultra-fundamentalist types who have made their children leave the home. Other churches will ostracize you. All this is not Christian but unfortunately common. I don’t know what your religion is. You should have an idea of what types of responses have occurred in the past when someone declares they have become atheists. Some churches will have an inquisition, other will be understanding and let you leave with no hard feelings.

Speak to your parents about this. Hopefully you can present your case in a manner not to offend them. If they really want you to go, then go. It’s not worth becoming estranged over this if you can help it.

Brant Gaede · March 25, 2013

If you can let them they don't have the force.

--Brant

just say, "No" (or, "No thank you" or something)

tmj · March 25, 2013

I am curious as to why you think exposure to the Easter service could or would be harmful to you?

BaalChatzaf · March 26, 2013

It is harmful insofar as it is a waste of his (finite) time.

Mike82ARP · March 26, 2013

In certain cases, I’d agree with you..

tmj · March 26, 2013

Yeah, but in the same vain going to your little cousin's bday party with the less than intellectual side of family and endoring another night of hockey talk would be a waste of time. I don't think he meant it in that way, but perhaps he did. I would advise him to go to 'honor thy parents', and following the golden rule. It's just a day his parents want, to them it is EASTER, he should just approach it as an unproductive afternoon, with a free meal.

RC churches have interesting iconography to look at, and there is alot in western culture/literature tied to christianity so , he at least find things to maybe google/wiki search later.

George H. Smith · March 26, 2013

I disagree with some other respondents to your post. At 16 you may not legally be an "adult," but you are certainly an adult in terms of your ability to make reasoned decisions. Moreover, even the legitimate rights of parents do not include the right to violate the conscience of their children.

Your parents are wrong, in other words, pure and simple. But this doesn't answer the question of what you should do. It is difficult for an outsider to give advice in this matter, but here is what I would do.

1) I would make it clear that you view being pressured to go to church as a violation of your conscience, and that as Christians they should understand and respect this principle. You respect their decisions in this matter, and they should respect yours. You might even ask them to consult their minister in this matter and ask his advice. Many Christian ministers -- the intelligent and conscientious ones, at least -- would counsel them to respect your decision.

2) if they still persist, then you should ask what the consequences will be if you refuse. Will they punish you? Or, perhaps, will they take it out on you in other, more subtle, ways?

3) Suppose there will be some kind of punishment, either explicit or implicit. Then this becomes a purely pragmatic decision on your part, based on how much you wish to avoid the consequences.

4) If you decide that going to church would be the lesser of two evils, then tell your parents that you will go as an observer, but that's it. You will not bow your head in prayer, sing hymns, take communion, etc. But in order not to embarrass them, you will stand when appropriate, e.g., when others are singing hymns. (I strongly recommend this compromise, since remaining seated will call a lot of attention to yourself, and your point in going is not to register a public protest.)

5) Your declaration not to participate in the rituals might cause your parents to back off; but if it doesn't, then I don't see any harm in going through with it, as a matter of conscience. I have been an atheist since my early teen years and have written three books on atheism, but I still attend services from time to time, if very infrequently, as an observer, out of curiosity.

6) If you don't think that your parents will make you "pay" in some fashion for your refusal, then I wouldn't go.

Ghs

Brant Gaede · March 26, 2013

Learning how to refuse what you don't want to do if your refusal is reasonable is one huge step up into adulthood and personal autonomy. It's the old making lemonade out of lemons and a great opportunity to grow. How much of a discussion you have with your parents depends on how rational everyone is--including you--but the discussion is probably not absolutely needed. Discussion is a mutual courtesy deserved by rationality.

--Brant

Kyle Jacob Biodrowski · March 26, 2013

Evan,

Would you like advice from someone who regularly attends church with his mother? Well, okay then, I'm your man.

But first, a little background information on my part.

I was born and raised as a Roman Catholic. Though my parents weren't (still aren't) very observant religious types, my mother and I (if not also my father) attended (and still attend) church every Sunday (and we catch most of the Holy Days). They've become more observant over the years in the sense that they (and I) attend church on most (if not all) Sundays. From first grade through eighth grade, I attended a group meeting every Wednesday. These meetings consisted of religious instruction and the like (no place for a growing, inquisitive child in my opinion). As mentioned above, I still attend Sunday masses. I, however, don't fully participate. This isn't due to any rebellion on my part. Rather it is due to the fact that it is very painful for me to stand and walk, so I just sit in the pew.

My mother knows of my own beliefs (soft Atheism), but she still drags me along. To be honest, if it weren't for my condition listed above, I wouldn't mind going for the hour every Sunday. I enjoy the music and the wafers. I also use that hour to reflect on certain ideas (and develop an argument or two in favor of freedom).

So, my advice to you is to seriously consider George's advice above.

Remember, your time on this earth is finite (as wisely stated by Baal). Make the most of it. If you choose to "waste it", "waste it" on activities you like.

Also, I agree with Brant (post 17)

Michael,

If I were ever asked that question, I would respond "no". But not for the reason you stated above. I have many regrets. I regret taking certain actions and I regret not taking certain actions. The reason I wouldn't "do something over again" is that each of my past actions has contributed to making me into the person I am today. If I were to correct one mistake, It could significantly alter my life for better or for worse. I don't know.

If I went back in time to study for a spelling test, I could have made it into Harvard in the future. Or I could be dead. Since each action has an ever widening effect, all subsequent actions, people, everything is affected. And nearly all the effects of a single action are impossible to know in advance.

Michael Stuart Kelly · March 26, 2013

Kyle,

I used to use that argument. A lot. That was when I was much younger. (I'm excluding time-paradox nitpicking. I don't think that was your meaning, anyway.)

Now I stand by my comment. I've earned the bones to and that is not a sentiment for the young.

But that's me. Your situation is obviously different and your own.

The thing I have learned, though... I can share it with you. It may not have much meaning in your context, but I favor awareness over illusion when I communicate. That goes for thorny issues all the way to when I dream and speak of great things that could be.

Many, many losses and painful experiences are character-shaping. They make you grow. You become stronger and wiser, even when they are excruciating. I would do all those over again in a hearbeat. And as in the cliché, I would not change a detail.

But some losses are just losses. They don't make you better in any way. They don't make you reflect on anything good. They don't make you change paths. They just take away and make you less than you should be. Those I would do over when they were my fault.

But go forth and live. It's a wonderful world. It's wonderful to be in it. And every day you take a risk is a great day.

Michael

jts · March 26, 2013

If you don't go to church, you will be judged.

BaalChatzaf · March 26, 2013

It had been Matt I would have shot all three of these Jihadis dead and buried the bodies.

Ba'al Chatzaf

syrakusos · March 26, 2013

That is why you are not Matt.

Why he did not arrest them for the assault is another question. Perhaps he only enforces federal law.

Michael Stuart Kelly · March 26, 2013

I was going to say the accumulated wisdom on this thread has blown me away. (And it has.)

But then look what happened...

Michael

PDS · March 26, 2013

Go to church.

Read Ecclesiastes while sitting in the pew. Focus on verses like this one from chapter one: "A person can do nothing better than to eat and drink and find satisfaction in their own toil. This too, I see, is from the hand of God, ²⁵for without him, who can eat or find enjoyment? ²⁶To the person who pleases him, God gives wisdom, knowledge and happiness, but to the sinner he gives the task of gathering and storing up wealth to hand it over to the one who pleases God. This too is meaningless, a chasing after the wind. " See if you can figure this out, and better yet, see if you can figure out why such a verse is in the Bible. Compare this verse to a Zen koan. Read it like a Zen koan.

Go to the dinner, but make the parents pay. You will find other bored 16 year-olds there as well. One of more of them may be hot.

Avoid the carbs during Easter dinner.

Overall: there is an art to learning which battles to fight. There is also an art to learning when to ask the advice of strangers. Learning these arts will serve you well in marriage as well, and, wouldn't it be ironic if you met that special someone at the Easter dinner?

Selene · March 26, 2013

Excellent advice.

And remember the boy scouts marching song...

Be prepared! That's the Boy Scout's marching song,
Be prepared! As through life you march along.
Be prepared to hold your liquor pretty well,
Don't write naughty words on walls if you can't spell.

Be prepared! To hide that pack of cigarettes,
Don't make book if you cannot cover bets.
Keep those reefers hidden where you're sure
That they will not be found
And be careful not to smoke them
When the scoutmaster's around
For he only will insist that it be shared.
Be prepared!

Be prepared! That's the Boy Scouts' solemn creed,
Be prepared! And be clean in word and deed.
Don't solicit for your sister, that's not nice,
Unless you get a good percentage of her price.

Be prepared! And be careful not to do
Your good deeds when there's no one watching you.
If you're looking for adventure of a
new and different kind,
And you come across a Girl Scout who is
similarly inclined,
Don't be nervous, don't be flustered, don't be scared.
Be prepared!

The immortal Tom Leher...

Should I let my parents force me into going to church?

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