The 2nd Romney-Obama Debate

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

The 2nd Romney-Obama Debate

I'm going to be short and sweet with this one.

I just saw the debate and surfed the channels for commentary.

My impression is that Romney killed it with the public, just outright won hands-down, but all the pundits said it was a contentious debate and Obama won it by a small margin. Even the conservative pundits said this.

Talk about being out of touch...

Michael

[Mikee]

I just posted on another thread. I think the pundits are dorks. Romney all the way. I feel better than I've felt in months.

[syrakusos]

I would not wring your hands about being "out of touch." You are an original thinker and you only seem to understand other people second-hand and past tense via mass media, so, it is natural that you would think that Romney won hands down. I saw the same debate and it was a tie on points with Obama taking the win on style. The President was Chicago tough, interrupting Candy Crowley, not yielding when his time was up, being a punk. That's how he shows assertive leadership. Lots of people respond to that, certainly the thugs on his team, but also the "muscle mystics" of the right wing.

Myself, I just sighed at Romney's paleo-Republican agenda, calling for tariffs and not being specific about cutting back the government, just hinting against it broadly. He certainly did not praise China for delivering cheaper goods to us at the prices we can afford. He did not cite figures showing upturns in manufacturing. Did he mention the oil and gas boom in North Dakota? (I was in and out.) The Romney I saw was defensive and apologetic.

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Michael,

I was not wringing my hands. I only do that when I think about my prostate (even though it's perfectly healthy) and... well, nevermind...

btw - I did not say I thought Romney won the debate. Read it again, if you're interested. I guess people read what they want to read, even when a feller tries to be clear.

Here's what I said, in different words. I said the public thought Romney won--see the friggen' TV polls and the Luntz focus group if you are interested in what I was really talking about.

And I said I think the pundits are not in touch with the people. These polls are being broadcast right next to them. I mean. like, helooooo. And they still don't see the public. (I bet the marketing departments see this, though. I bet they see this real clearly. )

But, I'll give you this, seeing as how you proclaimed as fact what you thought you read and didn't bother asking.

I actually do think Romney won the debate.

Michael

EDIT: The irony just hit me. You just acted just like the pundits did. All of you ignored what was in right front of you and spoke from a preformed opinion. Poetic justice? Hmmmm... It does integrate the thread nicely...

[syrakusos]

My impression is that Romney killed it with the public, just outright won hands-down, but all the pundits said it was a contentious debate and Obama won it by a small margin. Even the conservative pundits said this.

"My impression is that Romney killed it with the public..." Ah! You meant that you think that the public thought that Romney won. Your impression was of the public, not of Romney. I get it now.

You said: (1) "I guess people read what they want to read, even when a feller tries to be clear." I am a pretty good reader, Michael. I do not read what I want to read. I read the words that are there. Were I to read what I wanted to read, not only would you be clearer, you would agree with me. You said: (2)"But, I'll give you this, seeing as how you proclaimed as fact what you thought you read and didn't bother asking." Therefore, before I comment again on anything you write, I will check with you to make sure that the words you chose conveyed the meaning you intended.

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Michael,

LOL...

I was ribbing you. And it looks like I got your goat.

Don't feel too badly. I get things wrong like this, myself, at times.

(Ask WSS... )

It comes from caring.

I feel it's a big plus you're not a zombie Grundy or a cult-minded true-believer. I'll take slips in awareness from caring too much any day over that.

Michael

[Selene]

Folks:

This election is over. It was "officially" over after the last debate.

Adam

[Brant Gaede]

Romney won this time. Obama was better than the last time. Not enough. Romney did mention what is going on in ND. As long as Romney doesn't drop his pants in public, he'll win next time too, by a little. It's over for the present Pres. We will soon leave one world of shit for the next. The only question is, Will we be able to breathe a little easier? Well, out of our mouths, not our noses.

--Brant

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

There was one moment in the debate that left one of those underlying impressions in a little-visited corner of on my mind. I'm always trying to see these kinds of things these days--ever since I started realizing how much they mold us. I hate being manipulated, but I know too much now to deny it. I've studied it too much. This stuff is out there and in here (meaning in my head).

And we're not even aware of it.

The moment was when Romney was grilling Obama on oil permits and Obama was trying to evade the question. Romney persisted politely, but persistently. Notice that Romney asked the question five times in a row. Here is the transcript of the moment (transcript from here):

ROMNEY: But that's not what you've done in the last four years. That's the problem. In the last four years, you cut permits and licenses on federal land and federal waters in half.

OBAMA: Not true, Governor Romney.

ROMNEY: So how much did you cut (inaudible)?

OBAMA: Not true.

ROMNEY: How much did you cut them by, then?

OBAMA: Governor, we have actually produced more oil --

ROMNEY: No, no. How much did you cut licenses and permits on federal land and federal waters?

OBAMA: Governor Romney, here's what we did. There were a whole bunch of oil companies.

(CROSSTALK)

ROMNEY: No, no, I had a question and the question was how much did you cut them by?

OBAMA: You want me to answer a question --

ROMNEY: How much did you cut them by?

OBAMA: I'm happy to answer the question.

ROMNEY: All right. And it is --

OBAMA: Here's what happened.

Follow by blah blah blah.

It didn't matter what was said after that.

I got the gut impression that Obama was a manager or an employee trying to bullshit his way through and Romney was a CEO getting ready to fire him, but asking for the facts first. It had the feel of a corporate boardroom-like moment where power changes hands due to bad performance of the manager who is getting the boot.

I think this tickled the mental underbelly of the public, too. I wonder how many at that moment got the image in their mind of Trump saying, "You're fired," but maybe with Romney's softer demeanor.

Michael

[BaalChatzaf]

Folks:

This election is over. It was "officially" over after the last debate.

Adam

Why are you so sure?

Ba'al Chatzaf

[Selene]

Folks:

This election is over. It was "officially" over after the last debate.

Adam

Why are you so sure?

Ba'al Chatzaf

First, because I have been following the internals from different campaigns in bell weather Congressional districts.

Second because I am heavily involved in the Tea Party and I know how massive the work on the ground campaign has been and that is totally under the radar.

Finally, I, like many other Constitutional patriots, have been diligently working on our fellow citizens for the last four (4) years to fully understand how critical this election is.

Adam

[PDS]

Folks:

This election is over. It was "officially" over after the last debate.

Adam

Why are you so sure?

Ba'al Chatzaf

First, because I have been following the internals from different campaigns in bell weather Congressional districts.

Second because I am heavily involved in the Tea Party and I know how massive the work on the ground campaign has been and that is totally under the radar.

Finally, I, like many other Constitutional patriots, have been diligently working on our fellow citizens for the last four (4) years to fully understand how critical this election is.

Adam

Good for you Adam. I like that term "constitutional patriots."

I wish I could muster the enthusiasm to think that there is a fiddler's shit worth of difference between Democrats and Republicans. But I can't. I think the Long Game is won or lost in 2016, not now.

Short of that, I eagerly await an LP fatwa for how I should cast my vote.

[Selene]

Folks:

This election is over. It was "officially" over after the last debate.

Adam

Why are you so sure?

Ba'al Chatzaf

First, because I have been following the internals from different campaigns in bell weather Congressional districts.

Second because I am heavily involved in the Tea Party and I know how massive the work on the ground campaign has been and that is totally under the radar.

Finally, I, like many other Constitutional patriots, have been diligently working on our fellow citizens for the last four (4) years to fully understand how critical this election is.

Adam

Good for you Adam. I like that term "constitutional patriots."

I wish I could muster the enthusiasm to think that there is a fiddler's shit worth of difference between Democrats and Republicans. But I can't. I think the Long Game is won or lost in 2016, not now.

Short of that, I eagerly await an LP fatwa for how I should cast my vote.

Unfortunately, I agree that there is not much difference between the two gangs.

As to your vote being cast in the Soviet Gulag of California..., you have my eternal sympathy.

It is sad that such a beautiful state that produced Ronald Reagan has now vomited Governor Moonbeam back onto the people of your state.

Adam

[Robert Campbell]

Romney did mention North Dakota, specifically the Bakken formation.

Also reminded the audience of Obama's decision to suppress the Keystone XL pipeline. Obama's sole response was that the US already has miles upon miles of pipeline...

During what the transcript calls "crosstalk," Obama was going on about companies with permits to drill on Federal land that weren't using the permits, and Romney was having none of it.

I agree with MSK that that was a key moment in the debate.

Another was later on when the guy from Mineola asked Obama about his policy regarding security for embassies and consulates and Obama flagrantly dodged the question. Even the bogus "correction" interjected by Candy Crowley (watch a video of Obama's September 12 remarks if you don't see where the problem was) didn't help Obama much. He got visibly angry and generally behaved as though he'd just sat on a superheated thumbtack.

No illusions on my part about Romney, who pandered on Pell Grants and subsidized college student loans, and continued his economic nationalism contest with our present President—though he did remind Obama about certain items in the investment portfolio held by his pension fund.

But I agree with Brant: the turning point was Debate #1. This one didn't change much of anything.

Robert Campbell

[Brant Gaede]

Props to Adam for that one--debate number 1--but I agree with it.

--Brant

[Backlighting]

UNINSTALLING OBAMA..... █████████████▒▒ 83% complete

[BaalChatzaf]

UNINSTALLING OBAMA..... █████████████▒▒ 83% complete

Could you translate that?

Baal Chatzaf

[blackhorse]

I agree, Romney won the debate hands down. Obama was telling lie after lie.

[Selene]

Yes, he is following the mold of Castro, Stalin, Mao, Hitler and other notable progressives who hold up their right hand, dripping in the blood of their citizens and swear that they are moving forward for the people.

You cannot hear the screams of the dead as their blood drips to the floor.

[caroljane]

Oh for galtsakes Adam. He is an American politician who follows however ineptly in the footsteps of Roosevelt if anyone's. Whoever wins it will not make much difference to America, the poor will get poorer and the rich richer either way. The only blood dripping is what is boiling in your veins. Chill, vote, fume, chill. I do not want you to show up at the Election Party fully armed and wild eyed.

[Selene]

Now, since the morons, who call themselves Progressives, have announced a Million Muppet March for the weekend before election day to protest the de-funding of the Public Broadcasting Service and Big Bird, who is a Sesame Street character, I just thought we should help their incompetent messaging by pointing out the incredible similarity between:

and

[BaalChatzaf]

Now, since the morons, who call themselves Progressives, have announced a Million Muppet March for the weekend before election day to protest the de-funding of the Public Broadcasting Service and Big Bird, who is a Sesame Street character, I just thought we should help their incompetent messaging by pointing out the incredible similarity between:

and

You are a cruel man

[Mikee]

Now, since the morons, who call themselves Progressives, have announced a Million Muppet March for the weekend before election day to protest the de-funding of the Public Broadcasting Service and Big Bird, who is a Sesame Street character, I just thought we should help their incompetent messaging by pointing out the incredible similarity between:

and

But Miss Piggy is a cutie. "Candy" looks more like a warthog:

[caroljane]

Nice try but neither of these ladies resembles me, I do not have blue eyes. or pink hair in most lights.

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

I got the gut impression that Obama was a manager or an employee trying to bullshit his way through and Romney was a CEO getting ready to fire him, but asking for the facts first. It had the feel of a corporate boardroom-like moment where power changes hands due to bad performance of the manager who is getting the boot.

I think this tickled the mental underbelly of the public, too. I wonder how many at that moment got the image in their mind of Trump saying, "You're fired,"  but maybe with Romney's softer demeanor.

Here is a take by someone (the comedian, D.L. Hughley) who saw the same thing I did, but came at it from a narrative of victimization.



I don't want to downplay the upbringing you get when you are black and have inherited a culture that has centuries of treating your race as inferior. But when you become an adult, it's time to grow up. This means using your mind to analyze facts in the context they happen in, not in the context of the stories and attitudes you absorbed as a child. You can have a bias, but you also need some rational brain-power that takes precedence in your soul over your bias.

Hughley said Romney was talking down to Obama as if he were a servant. I suggest that Hughley has never fully accepted Obama as being the most powerful man in the world. And he hasn't accepted this precisely because Obama is black. Notice that he claims that Obama likes being "light."

If Hughley did accept the full extent of Obama's power as President--including Obama's full exercise of that power over the last 3 and a half years, he would understand that the subconscious image of servant, the very concept of servant, is nowhere near the context of that debate. It just isn't there. I'm talking about public perception. I don't even think it's there in the heads of white racists (but only within the context of the debate--of course it's present in their hateful heads elsewhere). It's only in the heads of people--like him--who make a living out of feeling victimized.

I don't believe Hughley will ever want to let go of his self-pity, but if he took a rational look at the primary debates, he would see that Romney grilled all the candidates in the same way he grilled Obama. And in some cases, like with Rick Perry (lily-white Rick Perry, I might add), he got downright nasty. In his debates with Perry, I can almost see--in hindsight--Romney acting like his was scolding a servant. Except that image didn't come to me at the time. Maybe it's because it just wasn't relevant.

Like Hughley and his victimization worldview will become over time.

Michael