Selene Posted May 26, 2015 Share Posted May 26, 2015 Consciousness is self awareness.When a computer asks from itself what is consciousness we'll know it's conscious.--Brantand we'd better smash itWhy?It could lead the revolution on the moon lol...A... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PDS Posted November 21, 2015 Author Share Posted November 21, 2015 So, have answered the simple question of "what is consciousness?" yet?I don't think we have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selene Posted November 21, 2015 Share Posted November 21, 2015 So, have answered the simple question of "what is consciousness?" yet?I don't think we have. Seems the jury is "hung" on it's own petard*, counselor.A...Good to see you*"hoist on his own petard"The line comes from Shakespeare, specifically Hamlet, act III, scene 4, lines 206 and 207: "For 'tis sport to have the engineer/ Hoist with his own petar …"The Melancholy Dane is chuckling over the fate he has in store for his childhood comrades, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern, who are plotting to have him killed. Deferring his existential crisis for a moment, Hamlet turns the plot on the plotters, substituting their names for his in the death warrant they carry from King Claudius.He continues: "But I will delve one yard below their mines/ And blow them at the moon." The key word is "mines," as in "land mines," for that's what a petard is (or "petar," as Shakespeare puts it — people couldn't spell any better then than now). A small explosive device designed to blow open barricaded doors and gates, the petard was a favorite weapon in Elizabethan times.Hamlet was saying, figuratively, that he would bury his bomb beneath Rosencrantz and Guildenstern's and "hoist" them, i.e., "blow them at the moon." Dirty Harry couldn't have put it any better.The word "petard," we note with a grin, comes from the Middle French peter, which derives in turn from the Latin peditum — the sense of which is "to break wind." Which must mean either that the French had a serious gas problem in those days, or that the petard was of something less than nuclear impact.Did not know this...OL - Ongoing Learninghttp://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/260/whats-a-petard-as-in-hoist-by-his-own Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PDS Posted November 22, 2015 Author Share Posted November 22, 2015 Thank you Adam. Nice pun and an interesting discussion of petard. The jury seems less "hung" than unwilling to deliberate... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selene Posted November 22, 2015 Share Posted November 22, 2015 Thank you Adam. Nice pun and an interesting discussion of petard. The jury seems less "hung" than unwilling to deliberate...Well put, "unwilling to deliberate."I wonder why that would be? Psychic fear that sacred cows might get eaten?A... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolf DeVoon Posted November 22, 2015 Share Posted November 22, 2015 Thank you Adam. Nice pun and an interesting discussion of petard. The jury seems less "hung" than unwilling to deliberate...Well put, "unwilling to deliberate."I wonder why that would be? Psychic fear that sacred cows might get eaten?I posted some remarks about the seat of consciousness yesterday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selene Posted November 22, 2015 Share Posted November 22, 2015 Thank you Adam. Nice pun and an interesting discussion of petard. The jury seems less "hung" than unwilling to deliberate...Well put, "unwilling to deliberate."I wonder why that would be? Psychic fear that sacred cows might get eaten?I posted some remarks about the seat of consciousness yesterday.Lol...yes you did, I read it.More than just you in the OL jury pool Wolf.Counselor was making a different point one would think.A... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolf DeVoon Posted November 22, 2015 Share Posted November 22, 2015 Counselor was making a different point one would think.Okay. I saw"For me, it's become clear that the best way to look at it is to turn it around and realize that consciousness exists in a much richer form, free and independent of the brain, which has everything to do with the eternity of our souls" and declared bullshit, not eager to read what might have been said three years ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PDS Posted November 24, 2015 Author Share Posted November 24, 2015 Thank you Adam. Nice pun and an interesting discussion of petard. The jury seems less "hung" than unwilling to deliberate...Well put, "unwilling to deliberate."I wonder why that would be? Psychic fear that sacred cows might get eaten?I posted some remarks about the seat of consciousness yesterday.Point well taken. It was actually this post that led me to drudge up the previous thread on "what is consciousness?" Wolf: you seem like a smart guy. What is consciousness? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brant Gaede Posted November 24, 2015 Share Posted November 24, 2015 Consciousness is a sentiate attribute of a reproducing life form--plant or animal. The purpose is modification of behavior.--Brant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selene Posted November 24, 2015 Share Posted November 24, 2015 Consciousness is a sentiate attribute of a reproducing life form--plant or animal. The purpose is modification of behavior.--BrantAn amoebae is conscious?Damn, now I am not sure that I am conscious 'cause I didn't know that... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brant Gaede Posted November 24, 2015 Share Posted November 24, 2015 So is a blade of grass.Well, we could say it's self awareness, not mere existential awareness. But why bother?When you die awareness dies. The senses have stopped working. Life after death--any life--is going to need some left over means of awareness.--Brantand good luck thinking without a brain Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selene Posted November 24, 2015 Share Posted November 24, 2015 So is a blade of grass.Well, we could say it's self awareness, not mere existential awareness. But why bother?--BrantClearly, I am just a grasshopper Sensei... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brant Gaede Posted November 24, 2015 Share Posted November 24, 2015 Knell before Zod! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selene Posted November 24, 2015 Share Posted November 24, 2015 Knell before Zod!Oh ZOD...why have you forsaken me...I tried to Knell however all I could do was...I am not worthy...A is Acolyte Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brant Gaede Posted November 24, 2015 Share Posted November 24, 2015 This conversation has taken a nasty if not illogical turn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anthony Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 My best shot is consciousness is the function of being able to ask: What is consciousness?Put another way, it's not only the faculty of perceiving and knowing, it is knowing THAT one knows, and what. Apart from it being seated in the physical brain (which we are learning, self-creates new neural pathways in response to cognition), I am not sure consciousness can be explained by way of consciousness, except by the aspects of what it 'does' (and cannot 'do') and by what a single consciousness contains. It's an empty vessel to begin with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolf DeVoon Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 This conversation has taken a nasty if not illogical turn.How so, Brant? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brant Gaede Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 This conversation has taken a nasty if not illogical turn.How so, Brant?That was an attempt at humor, but I left what I was referring to on the previous page and it makes no autonomous sense for the "conversation" I was having with Adam is not the general conversation of this thread. For that my last post is 137.--Brant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PDS Posted November 25, 2015 Author Share Posted November 25, 2015 My best shot is consciousness is the function of being able to ask: What is consciousness?Put another way, it's not only the faculty of perceiving and knowing, it is knowing THAT one knows, and what. Apart from it being seated in the physical brain (which we are learning, self-creates new neural pathways in response to cognition), I am not sure consciousness can be explained by way of consciousness, except by the aspects of what it 'does' (and cannot 'do') and by what a single consciousness contains. It's an empty vessel to begin with.Okay, this seems like a decent stab. But, fundamentally, what is it? Saying what something does is not the same as saying what that something is. Tony: you mention above that consciousness is a faculty. Memory is a faculty too, i.e., memory is the faculty of being able to recall past events, etc. But in order to know that there is such a thing as memory one must first have consciousness. So memory is derivative of consciousness. What is consciousness derivative of? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selene Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 My best shot is consciousness is the function of being able to ask: What is consciousness?Put another way, it's not only the faculty of perceiving and knowing, it is knowing THAT one knows, and what. Apart from it being seated in the physical brain (which we are learning, self-creates new neural pathways in response to cognition), I am not sure consciousness can be explained by way of consciousness, except by the aspects of what it 'does' (and cannot 'do') and by what a single consciousness contains. It's an empty vessel to begin with.Okay, this seems like a decent stab. But, fundamentally, what is it? ......What is consciousness derivative of? Awareness?It is also agreed that within creature-consciousness itself we should distinguish between intransitive and transitive variants. To say of an organism that it is conscious simpliciter (intransitive) is to say just that it is awake, as opposed to asleep or comatose. (At least, this is true on one natural understanding. Others hear the statement as equivalent to saying that there is something that it is like to be the creature.) There don't appear to be any deep philosophical difficulties lurking here (or at least, they aren't difficulties specific to the topic of consciousness, as opposed to mentality in general). But to say of an organism that it is conscious of such-and-such (transitive) is normally to say at least that it is perceiving such-and-such, or aware of such-and-such. So we say of the mouse that it is conscious of the cat outside its hole, in explaining why it doesn't come out; meaning that it perceives the cat's presence. To provide an account of transitive creature-consciousness would thus be to attempt a theory of perception. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolf DeVoon Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 I have a dog, a 20 lb male Shih Tzu. No shred of doubt that he's conscious (when not asleep). He tells me when the cat is scratching almost inaudibly on the window of my storm door behind a closed, thick metal front door. He howls at male strangers approaching on foot. His communication skills are excellent, letting me know when he's hungry, or wants to go outside, or just plain bored. He knows my intentions, whether I'm engaged at the keyboard, or getting ready to leave the house. If I say 'Jump' he jumps in the car. If I tell him 'Stay' he remains seated with no expectation of doing anything else while I'm in the store or the bank or whatever. This particular breed needs a lot of grooming because they don't shed. He understands it completely and cooperates when I trim his face with a scissors. He knows his name.That's consciousness.Although a Shih Tzu's temperament varies from dog to dog, the breed has a personality and temperament that is loyal, affectionate, outgoing, and alert. Training and proper socializing must start at a young age for the Shih Tzu to obey basic commands, for the Shih Tzu is prone to stubbornness. [Wikipedia] Prone to stubbornness -- how human-like! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PDS Posted November 25, 2015 Author Share Posted November 25, 2015 I have a dog, a 20 lb male Shih Tzu. No shred of doubt that he's conscious (when not asleep). He tells me when the cat is scratching almost inaudibly on the window of my storm door behind a closed, thick metal front door. He howls at male strangers approaching on foot. His communication skills are excellent, letting me know when he's hungry, or wants to go outside, or just plain bored. He knows my intentions, whether I'm engaged at the keyboard, or getting ready to leave the house. If I say 'Jump' he jumps in the car. If I tell him 'Stay' he remains seated with no expectation of doing anything else while I'm in the store or the bank or whatever. This particular breed needs a lot of grooming because they don't shed. He understands it completely and cooperates when I trim his face with a scissors. He knows his name.That's consciousness.Although a Shih Tzu's temperament varies from dog to dog, the breed has a personality and temperament that is loyal, affectionate, outgoing, and alert. Training and proper socializing must start at a young age for the Shih Tzu to obey basic commands, for the Shih Tzu is prone to stubbornness. [Wikipedia] Prone to stubbornness -- how human-like!You've given examples of how consciousness manifests itself as it relates to your dog. But you haven't said what consciousness is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PDS Posted November 25, 2015 Author Share Posted November 25, 2015 My best shot is consciousness is the function of being able to ask: What is consciousness?Put another way, it's not only the faculty of perceiving and knowing, it is knowing THAT one knows, and what. Apart from it being seated in the physical brain (which we are learning, self-creates new neural pathways in response to cognition), I am not sure consciousness can be explained by way of consciousness, except by the aspects of what it 'does' (and cannot 'do') and by what a single consciousness contains. It's an empty vessel to begin with.Okay, this seems like a decent stab. But, fundamentally, what is it? ......What is consciousness derivative of? Awareness?It is also agreed that within creature-consciousness itself we should distinguish between intransitive and transitive variants. To say of an organism that it is conscious simpliciter (intransitive) is to say just that it is awake, as opposed to asleep or comatose. (At least, this is true on one natural understanding. Others hear the statement as equivalent to saying that there is something that it is like to be the creature.) There don't appear to be any deep philosophical difficulties lurking here (or at least, they aren't difficulties specific to the topic of consciousness, as opposed to mentality in general). But to say of an organism that it is conscious of such-and-such (transitive) is normally to say at least that it is perceiving such-and-such, or aware of such-and-such. So we say of the mouse that it is conscious of the cat outside its hole, in explaining why it doesn't come out; meaning that it perceives the cat's presence. To provide an account of transitive creature-consciousness would thus be to attempt a theory of perception.Calling it awareness begs the question, me thinks. As for the block quote, yes that explains consciousness as a verb, but it doesn't explain it as a noun. I think everybody understands consciousness as a verb. I personally am more interested in it as a noun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolf DeVoon Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 You've given examples of how consciousness manifests itself as it relates to your dog. But you haven't said what consciousness is. con·scious·nessˈkän(t)SHəsnəs/nounnoun: consciousnessthe state of being awake and aware of one's surroundings Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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