Love in Bloom


Victor Pross

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Damage,

I am glad to hear that you can speak your mind and obviously have done so. Most people don't even on the smallest of things but especially will not when it may be brutal. They sugar coat it, beat around the bush, or just don't say it altogether. I also speak my mind and can be brutal, ask Victor, Gary, Jody, Rich, etc., and definitely can do my own body slamming so to speak but I pick and choose who I will direct my time and energy to and whether or not it is worth my time. I won't waste my time and energy on a total scumbag, parasite, most button pushers, headbashers, etc. That is my time and energy that can be directed towards more productive activities. Basically they're not worthy of my time and energy and I won't give them that satisfaction.

You know, I don't know you, the things you have done, etc., so I don't have the full picture of who you are. I am only going on what you've said on some of the threads here at OL, one in particular though is this thread. You seemed to have taken a jab at Victor and also at the contents of what this thread is about. You were reaming him it seemed for speaking his mind and he told it like it was even at the possibility of others viewing him as being a cynic. He couldn't give a rat's ass as to how others would possibly view him. But the way you responded is what prompted my post. It was in defense of Victor, myself, and what this thread is about. I just saw a sentence that was glaring at me and I just couldn't resist.

I'm curious, do you have some issue with what is going on here with Victor and me? You've even made a little jab on another thread that was directed at Victor as well as being directed at me. I have my ideas as to WHY. But just curious to know what you have to say in this regard.

Angie

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Gary,

I'm still totally at a loss for words. Your post is very beautiful and thank you so much. We've talked much offline and I know what you are saying and I know it is true. You've been an absolute doll to me. I'm still at a loss here. I totally understand where you are coming from. Whatever you choose to do, be it not talking to me anymore or continuing being my friend, I will understand either way. Obviously this is a sensitive issue. But thank you for the well wishes and the beautiful post.

Angie

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Guest Damage Inc.
You know, I don't know you, the things you have done, etc., so I don't have the full picture of who you are. I am only going on what you've said on some of the threads here at OL, one in particular though is this thread. You seemed to have taken a jab at Victor and also at the contents of what this thread is about. You were reaming him it seemed for speaking his mind and he told it like it was even at the possibility of others viewing him as being a cynic. He couldn't give a rat's ass as to how others would possibly view him. But the way you responded is what prompted my post. It was in defense of Victor, myself, and what this thread is about. I just saw a sentence that was glaring at me and I just couldn't resist.

I'm curious, do you have some issue with what is going on here with Victor and me? You've even made a little jab on another thread that was directed at Victor as well as being directed at me. I have my ideas as to WHY. But just curious to know what you have to say in this regard.

Angie

I've said to Victor in private e-mail that I'm very HAPPY for him. This relationship he's developing with you has GREAT potential. But, quite frankly, this is your private business. Here I am commenting on publicly professed love from two people who are in the mere gestation period of a relationship (which, let me repeat, has GREAT potential). Let me explain.

In my humble opinion you're both jumping the gun and are over-doing it. Yes, romantic relationships can start on the internet. But, please, folks: get a grip on reality. You've not concretized your relationship. At this stage, this relationship can't be fully REAL to either one of you. Angie, to get some perspective on this, consider the thoughts you have when you've broken down after breaking up with someone. You think about the times you spent together, right? You may think about the phone calls and e-mails; but, the general context is the times you spent together. You're developing very strong emotions of hope. This is the hope that you can both live up to who you say you are. It's just too easy to be anyone you want on the net.

Which brings me to my next point.

I've known Victor for approximately 13 years and still consider him a friend. But, like all friends, we have our differences. I didn't like how he handled his disagreement with Rich Engle because I believe that Victor would've reacted much more passionately if he met Rich personally. I'm not going to go into it here, all I'll say is that irony permeated that whole debate. I also don't like Victor's attacks on Lindsay Perigo or Craig Biddle. Perhaps Victor can explain his disagreement with Craig Biddle. From what I gather, Victor, disagrees with the Objectvist Hawks - such as Biddle - on Foreign Policy. Is this true, Victor? Please clarify your stance. Thanks.

Wayne Simmons

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Angie and Victor,

Here is a small present from Brazil, one of the many beautiful treasures from there. I love a romantic sense of life and I celebrate your souls. May your flame burn bright...

Michael

(Poem translated below the Portuguese version by James H. Kennedy)

Soneto de Fidelidade

Vinícius de Moraes (1913-1980)

De tudo , ao meu amor serei atento

Antes, e com tal zelo, e sempre, e tanto

Que mesmo em face do maior encanto

Dele se encante mais meu pensamento.

Quero vivê-lo em cada vão momento

E em seu louvor hei de espalhar meu canto

E rir meu riso e derramar meu pranto

Ao seu pesar ou seu contetentamento.

E assim, quando mais tarde me procure

Quem sabe a morte , angústia de quem vive

Quem sabe a solidão , fim de quem ama

Eu possa me dizer do amor (que tive):

Que não seja imortal , posto que é chama

Mas que seja infinito enquanto dure.

Sonnet of Faithfulness

To my love I shall be attentive above all

And always with such ardor, so much

That even when facing the greatest enchantment

My thoughts may become more enchanted by my love.

I wish to live it in each vain moment

And in its praise I shall spread my song

Share my laughter and shed my tears

When she is troubled or when she is contented.

And so, when later I’m approached

Perhaps by death—so dreaded by the living

Perhaps by loneliness—fate of those who love

I can say to myself of the love (I’ve had):

May it not be immortal, since it is a flame

But let it be endless for as long as it may last.

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There is a verse that is not well translated:

I wish to live it in each vain moment

And in its praise I shall spread my song

Share my laughter and shed my tears

When she is troubled or when she is contented.

The meaning reads much better as follows:

I wish to live this in each self-absorbed moment

And in praise of my dearest I shall spread my song

And laugh my laughter and shed my tears

When my dearest is troubled or pleased.

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There are two different kinds of people in the world: one looks at a little yellow pretty flame that could become a raging fire of love and passion...and want to piss on it. Others see that same flame...and want to get dry wood and shield the flame with cupped hands.

Angie and I were talking about it...and we know where you stand. Thank you, MSK.

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Ah, hell. This transaltion is bugging the dickens out of me. Let me redo the damn thing.

Soneto de Fidelidade

Vinícius de Moraes (1913-1980)

De tudo, ao meu amor serei atento

Antes, e com tal zelo, e sempre, e tanto

Que mesmo em face do maior encanto

Dele se encante mais meu pensamento.

Quero vivê-lo em cada vão momento

E em seu louvor hei de espalhar meu canto

E rir meu riso e derramar meu pranto

Ao seu pesar ou seu contetentamento.

E assim, quando mais tarde me procure

Quem sabe a morte , angústia de quem vive

Quem sabe a solidão , fim de quem ama

Eu possa me dizer do amor (que tive):

Que não seja imortal , posto que é chama

Mas que seja infinito enquanto dure.

Sonnet of Devotion

More than anything, I shall watch over my love

Before all else, with such passion, and so much so

That even in the throes of life's greatest enchantment

Ever further will my love enchant my thoughts.

I wish to live this in each self-absorbed moment

And I shall sing my song wide and far in its praise

And laugh my laughter and shed my tears

When troubled by it or pleased by it.

And so, later when I’m accosted

Perhaps by death—the dread of those who live

Perhaps by loneliness—the fate of those who love

I can say to myself of the love (I’ve had):

May it not be immortal, since it is a flame

But may it be infinite for as long as it may last.

Whew! There. That's better.

Michael

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Mike,

Thank you so much for that beautiful poem. It is obvious that you are sending much support, respect, love, and thought our way. You even came in a second time to make sure a verse was better translated. Obviously this was something that was very important to you. Wow. Kat is very lucky to have you. I actually get a scene in my mind of your being child-like and you're so excited about this gift and wanting it to be perfect, wanting it to be presented without flaws. So you run over all excited and happy as a child about what you will bestow upon them. You have a huge smile and you place it with much enthusiasm and then you leave. But some time passes and you realize, whoa, wait, it's not right, it's not perfect, it can be better. So you come back with the same enthusiam, same love, and you fix it so it becomes what you want it to be.

I thought it was very sweet of you and touched me deeply when I saw it and then saw you sneak back in real quick to fix it. It made me smile. I was watching you the whole time and it very much reminded me of how a child is when they want to give something they've made or something they are proud to give. Thank you very much.

I agree with Victor. There are some that want to instill doubt and destroy it and then there are others that want it to thrive and survive.

Angie

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Victor and Angie,

... one looks at a little yellow pretty flame that could become a raging fire of love and passion...and want to piss on it. Others see that same flame...and want to get dry wood and shield the flame with cupped hands.
I agree with Victor. There are some that want to instill doubt and destroy it and then there are others that want it to thrive and survive.

It is called a using a philosophy for living on earth.

May the glare of your flame become a searing pain in the eye of those who will not risk the blaze of living life to the fullest.

Michael

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Oh, Mike, this just adds even more to it. Oh, my God, you are too much. Truly you are. The kid that is so excited to give this gift and he wants it to be perfect. I have the biggest smile on my face right now.

Thank you, Mike. You totally just made my night.

Angie

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Damage,

I've found your post very interesting and have spotted a few things that are glaring at me but will give you an idea of what I will write about. I won't respond fully tonight as I have things to do and I also want to look at your post more thoroughly to see what is there and give it more thought but I will get to you later.

But this is what I am getting from your post so far: Once again, social meta crap is there, rationalizations, and assumptions.

There is a huge difference between the starting of a relationship and the end of a relationship as I am sure you are aware. I've also found it interesting as to what you reminisce about at the end of a relationship. It leads way to a vacuous state. That vicious cycle of repeating the same mistakes and picking the same partners over and over again with the same outcome. I do to a "certain" extent reminisce about the good ole days but it definitely is not my focus and I'll go into the reasons why a little later. I sorta chuckle at the words you use as "broken down" after a relationship. So WOW to that one. Boy, you really have no clue.

Mind you, this is coming from a woman that has had more than her share of relationships and is also coming from a woman that was in a relationship that lasted over 13 years. I'm well aware and I am by no means a fool. You grossly underestimate me and who I am.

Victor and I, as we have found, are literally a mirror image of each other. There is much chemistry there. There is much physical attraction on my part towards him like you wouldn't believe. It amazes me sometimes how strong it "truly" is. We have made a deep connection on all levels but one of a romantic relationship and that is the sexual connection. And I also have no doubts that this will also be very strong and a lot of fun.

There is no mistaking what is happening to both me and Victor. We will be seeing each other very soon in the flesh to explore what is going on between us even more. We've talked quite a bit about this. Neither one of us are fools nor are we blind.

Angie

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Guest Damage Inc.
Damage,

I've found your post very interesting and have spotted a few things that are glaring at me but will give you an idea of what I will write about. I won't respond fully tonight as I have things to do and I also want to look at your post more thoroughly to see what is there and give it more thought but I will get to you later.

Since no one - so far - has read my post accurately I hope you can do it justice and give a more thorough reply. I too don't have alot of time. I'm working different hours and have stuff to do prior to work.

But this is what I am getting from your post so far: Once again, social meta crap is there, rationalizations, and assumptions.

Not a good start. Social metaphysics? Where? Be specific. Contrary to Victor's assertions I haven't pissed on your relationship (golden showers - like Religion - are a private matter. LOL) . Engaging in social metaphysics, rationizations and assumptions are the kind of things I would've accused both of you of doing if I wasn't holding back. It's evident that my compliments are falling on deaf ears because I'm willing to be a wee bit critical. This is a private matter, after all, that you've both decided to make public. There's no big deal in doing so. But the consequence of making private matters public is that you invite comments from others (such as myself who knows Victor) about what they're being asked to praise. I have praised it. I'll continue to say so. Yet, I've stated that love is an emotion I'd hold off of making public before I had a chance to spent time with the person I claim to love. We've already had Gary reveal that he has been carrying a torch for Angie. What was that *really* all about?

There is a huge difference between the starting of a relationship and the end of a relationship as I am sure you are aware. I've also found it interesting as to what you reminisce about at the end of a relationship. It leads way to a vacuous state. That vicious cycle of repeating the same mistakes and picking the same partners over and over again with the same outcome. I do to a "certain" extent reminisce about the good ole days but it definitely is not my focus and I'll go into the reasons why a little later. I sorta chuckle at the words you use as "broken down" after a relationship. So WOW to that one. Boy, you really have no clue.

Mind you, this is coming from a woman that has had more than her share of relationships and is also coming from a woman that was in a relationship that lasted over 13 years. I'm well aware and I am by no means a fool. You grossly underestimate me and who I am.

Unfortunately, I do have a clue - just a clue. Unless the post from Gary is a joke, it appears you, Angie, like these internet romances. I wouldn't be a friend to Victor if I never spoke my mind as to what I see is going on in his life. He has done so for me. But, it's the ole "dish it out, but, can't take it" deal. Notice I haven't said I think he shouldn't continue this with you. I've made it clear that this has great potential. I just suggest caution. I no doubt believe the straw man views of my position will continue, it's what I expect on OL.

Wayne Simmons

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Wayne, [Damage]

Contrary to what you say, it would seem like you have too much time on your hands. Why invest this energy and time posting at all on OL—let alone this thread? You know, that you have chosen the fantasy name “Damage” reveals more than what you intended it seems. Who better--than I--to know that you are a polemist and love the “head-bash” of debate leaving your opponent so intellectually disoriented so as to have him wondering why he ever took the position you oppose. You feed off that shit. Damage indeed.

Personality, I think it’s apparent that you are trying to implant the seed of doubt into this blossoming romance. I really do. I don't think you are beyond feeling envy. That is, unless you are some rare species of human being that I am unfamiliar with, I even think that this emotion can be targeted to those we call our “friends.” Do you think I’m deflected by your camouflage, your “softening touches” of well-wishing while implicitly calling my girlfriend an internet harlot? [“We've already had Gary reveal that he has been carrying a torch for Angie. What was that *really* all about?”] A wee bit critical? Yes, your compliments are falling on deaf ears --because they are not genuinely felt; it has only been stated. Do you think I'm stupid?

What’s more, you have stated in private email that you think of this romance as being “rationalism”—yet you say that it has "so much potential" and that you are happy for me. Hmmm, very strange. Where do you stand, flip-flop? If this is not eating away at you, I'll eat my shorts. You are painfully—painfully—transparent to me.

Why do I think that your true colors are green for envy? God knows, having an Objectivist girlfriend has been a particular longing of yours—one that has fallen short of its fulfillment: you have managed to bypass the middle-of-the-road “lip service” religious type girls for the all out pie-in-the-sky theist with a capital ‘T’ kind. What was that noise you made about “loyalty to values”? Is this not an indication of hypocrisy? Do you really think I am to believe that your posting here is out of concern for a friend who may be setting himself up for heartbreak? Hey, if you are my friend---where the hell is the SLOP post you gave your word to complete two weeks ago?

Anyway, you grant the theoretical possibility that people can fall in love via the internet—which is not “theoretical” for those who have fallen in love this way—by the thousands--and for which you have zero experience. I wonder how you find yourself in the privileged position of accusing us of “rationalism?”

Furthermore, your use of this philosophical concept –rationalism--is misapplied in this context. Your proclivity for pseudo intellectualizing is revealed when you take this concept and cut it out with your school safety scissors and paste it with Elmer’s glue onto that which you seek to discredit. ["I don't like this, so I'll paste some negative verbiage, some philosophical bombast, all over it!"] Grab a philosophical dictionary and look the word up.

Wayne, listen to Angie and me: we are in love. That's our point. Just what the hell is your point? Are you telling us that we are not two intelligent—introspective—adults who are able to assess what’s happening to our hearts, our innards? Are you telling us that we aren’t actually feeling an intense affinity of shared values—an intense feeling of admiration, of desire, of respect, of painful longing? If love is a response to values—then we hit the mother load. Tell me, how did you gain access to our hearts and state of mind to say anything contrary? I’m really curious to know how you managed this…and without engaging in rationalism to boot! I’m truly amazed.

Here are the facts: You know nothing of what Angie is about and what is happening between us—zero, nada, zilch, zip, nil, nothing. Yet, that doesn’t stop you from spinning speculations from your ass. I also think you don't really know me either. Get a grip on reality.

Also, how do you account for the fact that you know me to be “picky” when it comes to the opposite sex, that I do not go with the first girl who will have me, and for the fact that you know me to be the type that would rather be alone than be with a woman who is all wrong for me? And yet—I’m publicly declaring my love for Angie on this forum. Soon, I will be on a plane so that Angie and I can be together. Do you know how incrdible this is? We want to make this relationship more “concrete” as you say. Yes, this will solidify what has already been established: we fell in love. We are dead serious about each other.

Listen, I don’t mean to be a bastard, but your counsel is not welcomed by Angie or me. We don’t need to be “warned” with how we are proceeding with this relationship. Really, Wayne, we are grown-up people here. I don’t need you targeting innuendos that Angie, my lady love, is frivolous with her affections on the internet. You insult her—you insult me. Whatever your intentions, I’m telling you that you are going about it all wrong. Don't piss me off. Just wish us well, and let it go at that. Okay?

Look, let’s bottom line it here. There is only one way to demonstrate you’re well-wishing and friendship for me: post on SLOP. I know it must be painful in the crotch area straddling that fence you're on with both feet on either side—friendship to me and playing loyal crony to the gang. But try your best. Your posting on this thread—if you know it or not---is not about well-wishing and friendship. It’s about damage.

Victor Pross

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Damage,

Wow.....I can't help but laugh. I pushed some buttons and hit a nerve. I will explain in a bit about social meta stuff in your post and some boils down to Rich and when you made your presence known here. You seemed to be overly concerned about how Rich was living his life and his choices to the point you flung some serious shit at him. He never said a word to you on that thread, atleast that I can remember now. No vulgarities, no mud thrown, no insults thrown, no attacks on you personally but you felt it was justified to come in right off the bat and "attack" him because he held a different view than you did. It seems that Victor couldn't really care what Rich does with his life because how Rich lives his life doesn't affect Victor's life in the least bit. Rich is religious but Rich is not a terrorist as you equated him to be and that he was about ready to blow up a building.

I read your post to me but I never responded to you. Rich is benign. He's chosen to live his life the way he sees fit just as the millions of other people out there that believe in any form of religion. I may not agree with it but this is what he's chosen. I don't want to get into this issue with you. I'm just pointing out some things you've said in one of your posts on this thread. I can't force my way of life on to him as he can't force his way of life on to me and the same goes with you. BUT it would be a concern of mine if Rich was one of these lunatic religious folk about ready to take out thousands of people. But Rich is not one of these people. But you became concerned on how Rich was living his life and felt it was justified to attack him. This is social meta shit. You brought it up again in your most recent post about Rich and you didn't like the way Victor handeled himself when it came to Rich. Well, I see it quite differently than you do. I'm kinda the outsider here looking in.

Yes, by posting this thread, it left us open to headbashing and smears, etc. Both Victor and I are so very excited about all of this that we wanted to announce it. It has nothing to do with social meta crap in the way you "might be implying" it possibly ?? but it was about our wanting to tell those that mattered to us, friends here at OL that I value and I am sure Victor values, about what was happening. Haven't you also done this yourself about someone special you've met, you tell your friends and family; correct? It's the same as Mike and Kat has done by announcing their own love publicly. Their excitement about it that they want to share it with the ones they call their friends.

I gotta go. I will write more later though and cover what you've asked. But I do recognize the well wishes that are coming from you towards us.

Angie

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Damage,

Please bear with me and the quote deal. I haven't quite gotten it down yet.

Ange: But this is what I am getting from your post so far: Once again, social meta crap is there, rationalizations, and assumptions.

Damage: Not a good start. Social metaphysics? Where? Be specific. Contrary to Victor's assertions I haven't pissed on your relationship (golden showers - like Religion - are a private matter. LOL) . Engaging in social metaphysics, rationizations and assumptions are the kind of things I would've accused both of you of doing if I wasn't holding back. It's evident that my compliments are falling on deaf ears because I'm willing to be a wee bit critical. This is a private matter, after all, that you've both decided to make public. There's no big deal in doing so. But the consequence of making private matters public is that you invite comments from others (such as myself who knows Victor) about what they're being asked to praise. I have praised it. I'll continue to say so. Yet, I've stated that love is an emotion I'd hold off of making public before I had a chance to spent time with the person I claim to love. We've already had Gary reveal that he has been carrying a torch for Angie. What was that *really* all about?

I've already covered some of what you've asked here in this quote in my prior post. Victor did a good job of covering the rationalisation issue on your part regarding us. This is an area where it is obvious you have no experience with and have no firsthand knowledge of so it becomes difficult for you to form an opinion that will hold water. Victor expressed this issue rather well: "Wayne, listen to Angie and me: we are in love. That's our point. Just what the hell is your point? Are you telling us that we are not two intelligent—introspective—adults who are able to assess what’s happening to our hearts, our innards? Are you telling us that we aren’t actually feeling an intense affinity of shared values—an intense feeling of admiration, of desire, of respect, of painful longing? If love is a response to values—then we hit the mother load. Tell me, how did you gain access to our hearts and state of mind to say anything contrary? I’m really curious to know how you managed this…and without engaging in rationalism to boot! I’m truly amazed."

I serioulsy have to laugh at what you are implying with Gary. Haven't you ever known someone that you really liked or fell in love with but come to find out they didn't feel the same towards you? Hell, I've been told numerous times by friends and even by some here on OL that they loved me or liked me in that way. I've known Gary for the past 3 months. We've talked quite often and I did like Gary. He is my bud. But I ultimately fell in love with Victor. Also by announcing publicly how I feel about Victor, doesn't that take me off the market? I am sure you've had the hots for a girl that you were friends with but come to find out they ultimately liked or fell in love with someone else.

Yes, it is obvious there is a component missing in this whole situation with me and Victor but that is an area that will be explored more fully very soon and I also have no doubts that there will also be a very deep connection in that regard. I am also very picky on who I choose and Victor just so happens to be the one that I chose and he truly meets my high standards. As we've both said, we are a mirror image of each other.

Angie: There is a huge difference between the starting of a relationship and the end of a relationship as I am sure you are aware. I've also found it interesting as to what you reminisce about at the end of a relationship. It leads way to a vacuous state. That vicious cycle of repeating the same mistakes and picking the same partners over and over again with the same outcome. I do to a "certain" extent reminisce about the good ole days but it definitely is not my focus and I'll go into the reasons why a little later. I sorta chuckle at the words you use as "broken down" after a relationship. So WOW to that one. Boy, you really have no clue.

Mind you, this is coming from a woman that has had more than her share of relationships and is also coming from a woman that was in a relationship that lasted over 13 years. I'm well aware and I am by no means a fool. You grossly underestimate me and who I am.

Damage: Unfortunately, I do have a clue - just a clue. Unless the post from Gary is a joke, it appears you, Angie, like these internet romances. I wouldn't be a friend to Victor if I never spoke my mind as to what I see is going on in his life. He has done so for me. But, it's the ole "dish it out, but, can't take it" deal. Notice I haven't said I think he shouldn't continue this with you. I've made it clear that this has great potential. I just suggest caution. I no doubt believe the straw man views of my position will continue, it's what I expect on OL.

Wayne Simmons

Once again, you don't know me. You don't know what I've talked to Victor about. You don't know what I've talked to Gary about. No, the post from Gary isn't a joke. He's very serious. He fell in love with me. We were friends and I liked Gary. He is my bud. I still want to be his friend. I still have to laugh at how you say that it appears that I like these internet romances....OY. Haven't you ever heard the phrase with some people, "He's a heartbreaker or she's a heartbreaker" or "He's going to be a heartbreaker when he gets older" etc. Haven't you ever fallen hard for someone you were friends with but those feelings weren't mutual? Or there was a mutual interest but you were only "friends" and one ends up falling in love with someone else and not you. It happens all the time. I fell hard for Victor. I've made it known publicly so essentially that takes me off the market. OL is the only place I post. I have very little time as it is to post here on OL let alone anywhere else. I work a lot and have much going on in my life outside of that. I respect that you in a sense want to shield your friend Victor from a possible heartbreak. I've done the same with my friends. But I get to know them first and how they are, their actions, etc., before I sit down with my friends and say, hey, I've got some concerns about your new guy or new girl. You don't even know me. Probably haven't read most of my posts, etc. I haven't talked with you offline so it becomes very very difficult for you to say: "it appears you, Angie, like these internet romances." I really still am laughing at this.

Your praise of what is happening with me and Victor is not falling on deaf ears. I hear it loud and clear. It's just the way it came across in your post hinted otherwise. Plus your very first post on this thread spoke volumes of what your intentions were which were attempts to instill doubts into me about how Victor is as a person but I know otherwise. There has been no deception on my part or Victor's part, as you've seem to implied. We've both been totally upfront and honest with each other as to who we truly are.

Angie

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A healthy and fulfilling love relationship cannot be waited, hoped and prayed for—it must be worked for. Although is seems like it “fell in my lap” at OL, I couldn’t have won the love of a good woman like Angie if I were some "other person" than the one I worked on being. It is possible to identify and understand what love is, and consequently it is possible to achieve it. I know WHY I love Angie, and she knows why she loves me. Love, contrary to the popular view, is not blind.

Objectivism views romantic love as an emotional response to your values as embodied in another person. To value something involves understanding why it is important to you. This means that the cause of your desire for one particular person is not your hormones, your environment, cupid, or fate--but your ideas—your person [“Man is a being of self-made soul].

If you believe that you should think for yourself, always tell the truth, be rational and productive, etc, you will love someone who also values those things—someone who is independent, just, rational and honest [but it is more complex than this]. Even once you have found a partner, there is no short-cut to earning love. Being in a relationship is not an escape from the need to improve yourself, nor is it a permanent seal of approval upon your character, because your self-worth will always be based on yourself, not who your partner is.

Those who view “love” as a gift from the heavens, as something not to be earned or maintained—as something that is not a expression of values but as a reprieve from Self, a relief from loneliness and boredom—are doomed from the outset. These are the people who pick up anything and associate with whomever will have them. To their minds, it is a seal of approval of their worth. Love is the expression—not the creation—of values. Before you can say [“I love you” you must first learn to say “I.”] Love is too valuable to be offered indiscriminately. Love is an exalted exchange—a spiritual exchange—between two independent people ---for the purpose of mutual benefit.*(1.1) Once you have done the hard work to become your ideal self, finding your ideal mate becomes easier. You will know that you are worthy of a loving relationship, and that you offer your partner a set of values to be shared, rather than a set of dependencies to be cared for.

Needless to say, love is profoundly—and properly—selfish: it means that you value that person, that he or she makes your life better--that they increase the joy and pleasure of your life immensely.*(1.2) Your emotional, intellectual and sexual needs–your need for companionship--are met in the most intense and profound way.

This is the basic understanding of love according to Objectivism, although it is much more complex than I can indicate in a brief post. But it carries a great deal of weight for me as being profoundly true...for reasons that are now well known. Love is a response to values. That is what is taking place here. This thread should be treated with respect.

Victor

NOTE FROM ADMINISTRATOR:

* Plagiarized from "The Meaning of Valentine's Day: Love is Selfish" by Gary Hull. The original passage reads as follows:

(1.1)

Love is far too precious to be offered indiscriminately. It is above all in the area of love that egalitarianism ought to be repudiated. Love represents an exalted exchange--a spiritual exchange--between two people, for the purpose of mutual benefit.

(1.2)

To love a person is selfish because it means that you value that particular person, that he or she makes your life better, that he or she is an intense source of joy--to you.

OL extends its deepest apologies to Gary Hull.

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This little episode reminds me of a situation Michael and I had with our former friend "Lord Buzzkill" early on in our relationship. Some of you may know who this is referring to and remember this piece as I posted up in the old SoloHQ (now RoR) romance forum as a katty advice columnist, Dear Tabby.

Dear Tabby,

Recently I fell madly in love with a really cool kat online and decided to move half way across the country and spend the rest of my nine lives with him. I know that to many people it sounds highly irrational, considering that the two of us have not yet actually met face to face. Call me quirky, but I have never been more certain that I have made the right life decision. We approached our relationship from the inside out and have been completely open and honest with each other. I knew before ever seeing his face that he was the one. We accept each other without reservation. No regrets. No apologies. No disclaimers. Only total passion for the total height.

An issue I have is that we have a friend who is being a royal buzzkill. This friend has personally warned both of us that Objectivist relationships don’t work out and has recommended courses and self-help books and a highly structured approach to matters of the heart. We don’t love according to the rules. We make our own. I know our friend means well, but we don’t want his advice. I just want to tell him to talk to the paw. I don’t see him as being an example of having a good relationship, he’s married but he seems way too interested in chasing tail. Any advice?

Kitten

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dear Kitten,

Don’t worry about the buzzkillers. Follow your heart. As for your dichotomized friend, I’d tell him to dump the wife if he ain't getting enough and explore the exciting world of polyamory by finding 2 or 3 objectivist women to love and take care of him as a man.

Tabby

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Actually, this is the first post I am able to make while Angie’s back is turned....shhhhh, not so loud. You'll wake her...

Damage, please help me! Shhhh!

I’m being held captive by her!

She lead me to her dungeon by a series of Victoria Secret lingerie --spread out on a long road. I had to follow it. One after the other. I couldn't help myself. Hey, I'm a guy! I walked for over two miles! She trapped me!

She’s a harpy! A harlot! Help me!

She’s using me as a sex-toy…I’m nothing but stud meat to her...shhhhh, you'll wake her.

You gotta help me...please.

Wait a sec...oh, no...she's awake.....

Please…no, no, no, get away! Angie, nooooo! I can’t anymore! I’m sore all over! :blink:

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Holy shit, oh, man, my secret is out now. You're all a bunch of fuckheads goin' and spillin' my dirty little secret. See, I am an Internet harlot...oh, wait, that's right. I'm a dude. I'm an Internet Man Whore. Yes, I have a huge third leg and and walk with a permanent limp. And remember now, I'm circus folk and can do some really cool tricks with "rings." And the golden showers and a switch sounds fun too. Yes, I confess. I have a dungeon where I keep Victor, my sex slave, locked up in a cage shackled with chains. But he escaped for a brief time but have found him again. Bad, Victor, bad. Ah, my good ole trusty paddle will do just fine.

Victor, get your ass over here, you ain't goin' nowhere, boy !!! You better be prayin' for God to come save your ass because you're in for some serious hurtin'. You think ya sore now. Just wait !!!

Btw, my real name is Bubba.

Bubba

Internet Man Whore

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