Love in Bloom

[bmacwilliam]

"Yes, yes I am. Oh, you're feeling something strong allright. The "painful longing" is the key phrase. Pain is a powerful motivator. I think you two are in love with the thought of being in love the way you think you are - if you think you know what I think I mean. Might you have a future with this? Sure, it's possible, but in my opinion, you're working hard to NOT let that happen."

Bob,

How can you possibly know this? How—as I asked battery acid Wayne Simmons—did you gain such insight into my psyche and heart? I never had anybody ever tell me the content of my innards—insisting that they have a more accurate read than me—before. Pardon me, my gaffe, please! That is truly astounding! To make sure I have it right: Is it just ME that you conjecture this—or is it your contention that people simply can’t fall in love over the internet?

-Victor

Yes, that is my contention. I do not need special insight into you to conclude this.

I love my wife fiercly. I have loved her and been with her for many many years. I think our love is very real. Could I have developed anything even remotely approaching this before meeting her? That is just about as ridiculous a question as I could think of. Objectively, much of my love and attachment is based on things that require proximity, I mean that's why we live together and don't like being apart. Of course there's more than that and we have an intellectual connection and so on and I understand what you're saying about connecting on that level. Connecting on that level is a good reason to meet and see what happens. This is what you're doing, but in your mind you've taken it way way beyond this - not good.

Even if it's possible to develop real and strong feelings (and not based on a fantasy ideal) in this situation (which I doubt), the premature committment strikes me as totally inappropriate. That's why I asked you about your parents - get another opinion from an appropriate source. I find your behaviour to be unhealthy and irrational.

Bob

[Victor Pross]

Bob,

As for your contention that Angie and I are merely hormonally driven—and that we are sugarcoating this with rationalizations of ‘love’—is truly asinine for this simple reason: we could find an outlet for this in proximity to where we live, don’t you think? Either one of us could simply hook up with the nearest individual who is, by a shred of our own standards, sufficient enough, attractive enough, to romp with. Of course we can. Angie—as a very attractive woman—could have any man she wanted. Yet she has chosen me, this Canadian man. And is going to considerable expense and trouble to meet me. See, this is a woman in love, a woman committed to her values. And in the pursuit of those ideals, those values, she is truly inspiring for others here, I believe. This is not just a matter of the hots, Bob. Or does this make too much sense?

And you keep on harping on this idea that love is impossible without first physically meeting—and I would agree that any other age it would perhaps be preposterous. But love is based on knowledge, Bob, not this thing “physical chemistry” as is lust. Angie and I have a lot of knowledge of each other. The internet made this possible.

-Victor

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Bob,

Do you have children?

Michael

[ethan_a_dawe]

Bob,

You make me laugh. I was never humiliated by you, and, for the record, I wasn't ever spanked by you. I encourage those interested in wasting their time to read up on our excahnges on RoR.

As for me being arrogant and closed-minded, anyone who knows me and read what I've posted can make up their own mind on that. These are certainly not the characteristics that I'm known for.

You are rude and abusive in most of your posts and tend to disregard any posts by others that show how your arguments are fallacious. Your record speaks for itself as well. I'll let those intested come to their own conclusions about your and your nature. I have mine, and from what I've seen here, they aren't changing from my previous view posted on RoR

Ethan

Edited May 9, 2007 by ethan dawe

[ethan_a_dawe]

Ooops, should post something on topic

Congrats to Angie and Victor.

Ethan

[bmacwilliam]

Bob,

Do you have children?

Michael

Yes.

[bmacwilliam]

Bob,

You make me laugh. I was never humiliated by you, and, for the record, I wasn't ever spanked by you. I encourage those interested in wasting their time to read up on our excahnges on RoR.

As for me being arrogant and closed-minded, anyone who knows me and read what I've posted can make up their own mind on that. These are certainly not the characteristics that I'm known for.

You are rude and abusive in most of your posts and tend to disregard any posts by others that show how your arguments are fallacious. Your record speaks for itself as well. I'll let those intested come to their own conclusions about your and your nature. I have mine, and from what I've seen here, they aren't changing from my previous view posted on RoR

Ethan

Well,

I see your grip on reality is as loose as ever. I would never dream of suggesting you would ever actually agree that your drivel was accurately exposed for the nonsense it is. You'd have to be based in reality for that.

Bob

[ethan_a_dawe]

Bob said:

Well,

I see your grip on reality is as loose as ever. I would never dream of suggesting you would ever actually agree that your drivel was accurately exposed for the nonsense it is. You'd have to be based in reality for that.

Bob

As I said, I'm comfortable with the full context of the discussion on RoR. Your judgement of it means little to me. Have a nice life.

Ethan

Edited May 9, 2007 by ethan dawe

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Bob,

Do you have children?

Michael

Yes.

Bob,

I figured as much. I imagine you are concerned for the welfare of them and are worried that they will use the image of an online romance as inspiration to do something really stupid in their lives.

Here are merely a few thoughts on this. To start with, all of the recent people who have fallen in love in an online romance (myself included) are adults. All have been around the block in one-on-one relationships and know a lot about what to look for, danger signs, etc. A younger person does not have some of this savvy and school life ain't the same thing.

In considering how this impacts a younger person, there is a reality in one element of an online romance that needs to be faced: part of it is a crapshoot until you meet the person. You would have to be omniscient to eliminate that part, and none of us are omniscient. An adult is able to run some better odds than a young person because of experience, but there is still that slice of crapshoot as part of the mix, even if you are 90 years old and seasoned whore.

On the other end, I believe that we live in a State of Fear because of the media, and that the dangers of the Internet have been vastly exaggerated. Kat's family members, for example, were sure that I was an ax-murderer before we met. This is a direct result of this culture of terror we live in. It is silly.

However only a fool would say that the dangers don't exist on the Internet. If you go hunting in the wilderness, the chances of being attacked by a wildcat or bear or snake or whatever are not great if you take reasonable precautions, but all these creatures are out there and they will kill you. Human predators and simple mistakes are out there on the Internet, too.

So if any young people are reading this, there is nothing wrong with dreaming about love and romance and it is surely out there for anyone who wants it. But you need to take precautions in the wilderness (and the Internet is a wilderness of sorts). Nothing will do that better than using your rational mind and analyzing the advice of people who are more experienced than you. Also, keep in mind that your parents love you. If they seem harsh, it is because they are scared to death you will hurt yourself.

Michael

[Dodger]

Why in God's name would people be so bent on destruction?

You guys look like 3 year olds throwing temper tantrums.

[Philip Coates]

Why are people still posting endlessly week after week (and repetitively) on these topics full of negativity...is this the best use of a site and of people's time? Does it change any minds or improve the world?

[Brant Gaede]

Why are people still posting endlessly week after week (and repetitively) on these topics full of negativity...is this the best use of a site and of people's time? Does it change any minds or improve the world?

Phil, this is much too general. What topics? What threads? You do most of your serious postings on SOLOP and then you come here with this? Remember the war-mongering, SOLOP genocidalists from late last summer? And you are under the illusion that Objectivism is ripe and complete enough to feed the world if we can only shovel it out fast enough, wondering why we don't? It's not just a failure of people, but of a philosophy and you cannot ad hominem that away. Because of cultural inertia and human stupidity, society cannot be turned around--even Ayn Rand couldn't do that. My primary save the world focus is figuring out how to keep major cities from being blown up, not spreading the word about Objectivism, which has helped millions, but not in the way you seem to think is enough. Studying Objectivism so one can know it well enough to teach it begs the question of whether it needs to be improved as a philosophy, which the ARIans cannot imagine. Don't touch the sacred robes!

--Brant

Edited May 11, 2007 by Brant Gaede

[CNA]

Instead of naysaying, Make Someone Happy. We did. Each other. WE know what is really important. So jump on for the ride.

Woooohooo....wow, so many butterflies, so much anticipation, and can hardly wait. OH MY GOD, 1.5 weeks to go and can't stop smiling. YAY !!!!

[Dragonfly]

Why are people still posting endlessly week after week (and repetitively) on these topics full of negativity...is this the best use of a site and of people's time? Does it change any minds or improve the world?

Phil, this is much too general. What topics? What threads? You do most of your serious postings on SOLOP and then you come here with this?

Right. In contrast to the Solomoron forum which is an intellectual desert, there are countless excellent threads on this forum. Instead of making positive contributions to some of these discussions Phil only comes here only to tell us again and again what is wrong with this forum and how it should be run in his opinion. I'd suggest he creates his own forum which he can organize exactly as he wants and with exactly those discussions he wants. The response can hardly be less than on the forums he now criticizes.

[Brant Gaede]

Why are people still posting endlessly week after week (and repetitively) on these topics full of negativity...is this the best use of a site and of people's time? Does it change any minds or improve the world?

Phil, this is much too general. What topics? What threads? You do most of your serious postings on SOLOP and then you come here with this?

Right. In contrast to the Solomoron forum which is an intellectual desert, there are countless excellent threads on this forum. Instead of making positive contributions to some of these discussions Phil only comes here only to tell us again and again what is wrong with this forum and how it should be run in his opinion. I'd suggest he creates his own forum which he can organize exactly as he wants and with exactly those discussions he wants. The response can hardly be less than on the forums he now criticizes.

That's funny. Some posters on SOLOP told him to do the same. Actually, I'd go to his place and comment on his topics, unlike SOLOP. He is very worth reading once he gets going.

--Brant

[Dragonfly]

That's funny. Some posters on SOLOP told him to do the same. Actually, I'd go to his place and comment on his topics, unlike SOLOP.

His place? Does he have a place?

He is very worth reading once he gets going.

Really? What I've read sounded only like a pedantic schoolmaster telling everyone that they don't obey his rules and that all forums are conducted in the wrong way. Therefore the advice to create his own forum isn't so farfetched. But then he could no longer complain, and perhaps complaining for the sake of complaining is his secret motivation...

[BAMF]

This thread's all over the place. I'm almost impressed.

EDIT: Angie, cute little video! You can also make someone happy by giving them a

. Edited May 11, 2007 by Kori

[Dodger]

This thread's all over the place. I'm almost impressed.

EDIT: Angie, cute little video! You can also make someone happy by giving them a

.

Impressed?

Hehe

[Steve Gagne]

Victor, Angie

I haven't read the whole thread; being new here I'm still doing "the condiment dance" -- trying to "ketchup" on everything. I really "relish" the posts of others; some call for a really "hot sauce"-y response. But I would be in a real "pickle" if I started responding inappropriately to people. Should I stop that now? Well, "mayo"-be yes.

Okay, what I wanted to say was, that from what I've seen here, it seems the biggest mistake would be not to try and find out if it's real and right, as Scott Meldrum pointed to in his song, "Einstein's Big Mistake". (© 1999 Crushwerx) You really owe it to yourselves to find out; enjoy the adventure called life, don't be afraid of it.

And I hope it lasts even longer than the 30 years my marriage has (so far). I wish you both all the best.

steve

"She's in Love; there's nothing better than that...."

[Brant Gaede]

That's funny. Some posters on SOLOP told him to do the same. Actually, I'd go to his place and comment on his topics, unlike SOLOP.

His place? Does he have a place?

He is very worth reading once he gets going.

Really? What I've read sounded only like a pedantic schoolmaster telling everyone that they don't obey his rules and that all forums are conducted in the wrong way. Therefore the advice to create his own forum isn't so farfetched. But then he could no longer complain, and perhaps complaining for the sake of complaining is his secret motivation...

No, he doesn't have a place. "Once he gets going" refers to a developed thread with intelligent responses, some of which would be his. Just because he sounds like you say doesn't mean its irrational or ignorant or valueless.

--Brant

[BAMF]

This thread's all over the place. I'm almost impressed.

EDIT: Angie, cute little video! You can also make someone happy by giving them a

.

Impressed?

Hehe

Right, impressed. Impressed by the various topics being discussed in this thread, and impressed by all the different emotions.

[Jonathan]

Why are people still posting endlessly week after week (and repetitively) on these topics full of negativity...is this the best use of a site and of people's time? Does it change any minds or improve the world?

Phil, this is much too general. What topics? What threads? You do most of your serious postings on SOLOP and then you come here with this?

Right. In contrast to the Solomoron forum which is an intellectual desert, there are countless excellent threads on this forum. Instead of making positive contributions to some of these discussions Phil only comes here only to tell us again and again what is wrong with this forum and how it should be run in his opinion. I'd suggest he creates his own forum which he can organize exactly as he wants and with exactly those discussions he wants. The response can hardly be less than on the forums he now criticizes.

Several people have suggested that Phil start his own forum, and since he hasn't taken them up on it, it got me to thinking that maybe he needs a little help. So instead of being critical and negative, I took the positive step of opening up a Yahoo! group for Phil called "ObjectiVision," and I even spent a few minutes creating a logo for him:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/objecti-vision/

Phil, I'm sending you a private message which includes the group ownership e-mail address and password. It's all yours. I've already joined and look forward to some great discussions.

Best,

J

[BAMF]

^Ballsy.

[Philip Coates]

> I took the positive step of opening up a Yahoo! group for Phil

Unable to do it, Jonathan, but thank you anyway.

[JennaW]

I haven't talked to any immigration lawyers at all. Coming into the US is different than entering into the European Union. However my man knows the US Ambassador's assistant in Vienna and I will be asking some questions about living there and gaining citizenship... but right now, my very vague plan is to work and save money (already doing that-- working 7 days a week for 6 months!), then move there at the end of December (already bought my one-way ticket) for 6 months. During the 6 months we'll see how things go, and if it's working out well, we'll marry. If not, then I can always move back and stay at either my parents' place or my best friend's place until I find a job and an apartment.

So, by the time we marry, it'll have been almost 2 years of knowing each other. Don't rush into things and decide life-changing events right away-- if it's going to work out, it's gonna happen. Just give it time to develop-- living with him is different than traveling with him is different than camping with him is different than etc. etc. Moving is a huge step and I didn't officially decide until we saw each other two times... and even then, I have a "back out" plan.

Just take it easy, get to know the person face to face, and don't sweat it when you find out that some things they do annoy the hell out of you. I'd meet more than once to decide to move-- my 2nd time with him was a lot different than my first. I found out a lot about how he lived and it ~is~ different than how I live, so I know all the things I have to get used to and how to incorporate my style of living with his.

That's all I can remember to say right now (it's 11:30pm and I have to move out by the end of May so I spent all day packing and donating things and organizing, etc.). If you have any questions, I'd be glad to answer... I just don't know the immigration ones to the US.

--Jenna

Jenna,

I have been meaning to ask you: have you shelled out for an immigration lawyer to make arrangements to move to another country? If so, was there a lot of red tape? I think you might know, not sure, but I am planning to move to California to live with Angie. Talk about a big step. I have vssen an immigration lawyer who has quoted around 45-hundred. Hmm, makes me wonder if there is some other way.

-Victor