Hello everybody

[Raiven]

Hello everybody! Well, let me introduce myself. My name is Omar (Raiven on the internet). Mexican, 24 years old, who loves to read and learn about almost everything, with the most objective mind possible of course. I came to this forum because of two important reasons:

The first, I liked Ayn Rand's novels "The Fountainhead" and "Atlas Shrugged" (haven't read the others or her non fiction works, so I got homework, ) But the "objectivists" I've met, both on forums and in person, were intolerant people who tought they were right about everything just beacuase they were objectivists, and they treated other people as inferior. Then I read on many sites online (can't remember the names) that all objectivists were like this. I came here because the people look more friendly and open minded, and because anytime I had a doubt about Rand's philosphy or something I disagreed with, the "objectivists" I knew treated me like a retarded. I hope that doesn't happen here.

The second reason, is to know why people in many places of the world (my country included) think of objectivists as a bunch of savage capitalists with no love for mankind, when Rand's works give an entirely different message.I think others have badly misunderstood Rand's philosohpy, which if not perfect, at least tries to give a reasonable and pacifist way of life for man. I hope to learn more here, always in a frinedly manner of course.

But going back to myself, I love epic fantasy like "The Lord of the Rings", I like nature, I consider myself a pacifist (in the manner that I prefer to negotiate rather than start unnecesary conflicts) and someone who wants to preserve the planet, forests, animals, etc. In another post I will write why some false objectivists hated me for this and why I think enviromental care is not opposite to objectivism.

But anyway, I've written too much.

Thank you for reading me and take care!

[studiodekadent]

Omar,

Welcome to Objectivist Living.

I'm sorry to hear about other Objectivists being intolerant douchebags to you. That's unfortunate, but I'm sad to say it is a common occurrence.

However, any website that declares all Objectivists are like that clearly hates Objectivism and is attempting to discredit the ideas by bashing the people.

You are quite correct that Rand gets misinterpreted. Mexico's religious heritage and relatively strong socialist movement all result in a belief that "Capitalism" must be about killing puppies to make money... It might help if we took the (loaded, confusing) term "Capitalism" out of the equation and described Rand's ideal using the more technical term for it; "Free Market Economics" (defined as an economy where all violence, fraud or threats thereof are removed from the economy). Of course, that term can be misinterpreted as being solely economic when Rand was also in favor of laissez-faire on a social level.. perhaps "Classical Liberalism" would be better (or compound the two; "Free Market Classical Liberalism").

That simple word-change might help in discussions with others.

Of course, many of Rand's misinterpreters have never read her works and are going by what their ideological allies say about her. That, or they're deliberately distorting her because they know she actually makes a reasonable argument

I should add, you call yourself a "pacifist" and by that you mean "I prefer to negotiate rather than start unnecessary conflicts." That's a noble thing (its basically the Non-Inititation Of Force principle (NIOF)), but "pacifism" typically means a belief that violence is unjustifiable even in retaliation. And you clearly don't believe that its wrong to defend oneself violently if necessary.

I agree with you that enjoying nature and wanting to preserve the environment aren't anti-Objectivist. I don't want to sound like I'm trying to justify the douchebags, but they may have misunderstood you. Objectivism criticizes the Environmentalist movement because that movement has an ideology which says 'untouched nature' (i.e. nature unmodified by man) is intrinsically good and that man is a 'destroyer' of nature etc. etc. (take Christianity, replace "God" with "Gaia" and you pretty much have it), and the solution is to abolish or tightly control industrial society. Many people that take pleasure in nature and want to preserve it do not believe these things, but the Environmentalist movement does (the Al Gores, David Suzukis, James Lovelocks, etc. all promote this). Those douchebag so-called-Objectivists might have simply misinterpreted you and believed you were in favor of the "man has sinned by leaving a carbon footprint on the sacred soil!!!" viewpoint.

But anyway, welcome to OL and I hope you enjoy your time here. You're right; this is a very tolerant forum. I'm a pretty unorthodox Objectivist and I haven't been denounced or anything.

[Raiven]

Omar,

Welcome to Objectivist Living.

I'm sorry to hear about other Objectivists being intolerant douchebags to you. That's unfortunate, but I'm sad to say it is a common occurrence.

However, any website that declares all Objectivists are like that clearly hates Objectivism and is attempting to discredit the ideas by bashing the people.

You are quite correct that Rand gets misinterpreted. Mexico's religious heritage and relatively strong socialist movement all result in a belief that "Capitalism" must be about killing puppies to make money... It might help if we took the (loaded, confusing) term "Capitalism" out of the equation and described Rand's ideal using the more technical term for it; "Free Market Economics" (defined as an economy where all violence, fraud or threats thereof are removed from the economy). Of course, that term can be misinterpreted as being solely economic when Rand was also in favor of laissez-faire on a social level.. perhaps "Classical Liberalism" would be better (or compound the two; "Free Market Classical Liberalism").

That simple word-change might help in discussions with others.

Of course, many of Rand's misinterpreters have never read her works and are going by what their ideological allies say about her. That, or they're deliberately distorting her because they know she actually makes a reasonable argument

I should add, you call yourself a "pacifist" and by that you mean "I prefer to negotiate rather than start unnecessary conflicts." That's a noble thing (its basically the Non-Inititation Of Force principle (NIOF)), but "pacifism" typically means a belief that violence is unjustifiable even in retaliation. And you clearly don't believe that its wrong to defend oneself violently if necessary.

I agree with you that enjoying nature and wanting to preserve the environment aren't anti-Objectivist. I don't want to sound like I'm trying to justify the douchebags, but they may have misunderstood you. Objectivism criticizes the Environmentalist movement because that movement has an ideology which says 'untouched nature' (i.e. nature unmodified by man) is intrinsically good and that man is a 'destroyer' of nature etc. etc. (take Christianity, replace "God" with "Gaia" and you pretty much have it), and the solution is to abolish or tightly control industrial society. Many people that take pleasure in nature and want to preserve it do not believe these things, but the Environmentalist movement does (the Al Gores, David Suzukis, James Lovelocks, etc. all promote this). Those douchebag so-called-Objectivists might have simply misinterpreted you and believed you were in favor of the "man has sinned by leaving a carbon footprint on the sacred soil!!!" viewpoint.

But anyway, welcome to OL and I hope you enjoy your time here. You're right; this is a very tolerant forum. I'm a pretty unorthodox Objectivist and I haven't been denounced or anything.

Thank you for this first and warm welcome to the forum. You are right about many things, especially what you said about Mexico, where religion and socialism control a lot of the way of thinking in the country. And you are also right about pacifism, I don't like to satrt conflicts, but that doesn't mean I'll sit idly when my life, my beliefs or my possessions are threatened. That's why I'm against the "turn the other cheek" belief in many religions. Talking about enviromentalism, I agree with your point of view. Preserve the planet doesn't mean to disregard mankind, just as progress doesn't mean to destroy the world (or "kill puppies" like you said)

Buy anyway, there will be time and other spaces to discuss these things better. On the meantime I've learned something new (the Non-Inititation Of Force Principle) and I expect to talk to the rest of the members in the forums soon. I'm glad to see that the "objectivists" I knew were just bad parodies of this philosophy.

Take care!