Casting Couch

[caroljane]

the reactions to The Movie roll in, most people seem to object most to the actor in the d'Anconia role. "Mexican drug lord" is one of the milder appellations.

I wonder if this is a misfire in the attempt to modernize the "look" of the movie. The business heroes can be pretty well translated from Rand's/ 40ish Mad Men look to today's and tomorrow's; business suits and short hair don't need much updating. But an ascetic international playboy who is moreover the only non-Northern European type major character in the novel needs some thinking about. Did they hope that going with a "Euotrash" vibe would work for a 2011 audience? So far it doesn't seem to.

Other end of the scale, everyone seems to love to hate Lillian.

[Reidy]

The moviemakers went for a look that said "degenerate," but they got quite the wrong kind of degenerate. The very word "playboy" suggests someone with the style and joie de vivre the character lacks. I think he could have played it that way if the director had asked for it. They all should have watched the Fairbanks Mark of Zorro before they went to work.

For decades I've thought of Dagny as a brunette and Ellis as thirty-two, and the actors immediately convinced me otherwise. Not Francisco, though.

[Ellen Stuttle]

I wonder if [the casting of Francisco] is a misfire in the attempt to modernize the "look" of the movie. [...] Did they hope that going with a "Euotrash" vibe would work for a 2011 audience? So far it doesn't seem to.

The casting of Francisco upset me with a feeling of desecration -- and of protest against the insensitivity to Ayn. She hated facial hair. She meant it. See for instance the tale Harry Binswanger recounts in 100 Voices of Frank's once, in her and Frank's early years together, starting to grow a mustache and her being upset, saying it ruined a beautiful face, and insisting he shave it off.

Your suggestion about a Eurotrash vibe, though, seems plausible as to what they might have been hoping for.

It also reminds me of a European mod style which I think would have worked if they'd used that. The summer of 2009, when Larry and I went to Vienna for a few days after a conference in Budapest, we managed to get tickets to a production of "Don Giovanni" which was playing. The production had been done modernized -- ingenious staging -- as taking place in a hotel. The guy who played Giovanni, as well as having a good voice, had the sort of look which was featured a lot in store advertisements -- a little on the wild side but in a sophisticated way, trim build, clean-featured, elegant. Someone of that style but of Latin complexion would have both suited the modernized look of the movie and been in keeping with the book's Francisco.

I also disliked the choice for Hugh Akston. As I've said on a different thread, to me he looks like the type of a fair number of present-day philosophy professors, i.e., not like Akston.

Ellen

[Reidy]

This, according to Heller, was her choice to play Francisco.

[Selene]

This, according to Heller, was her choice to play Francisco.

I saw that, but did not look him up.

Visually, that does not work for me at all.

Shayne's Banderas works for me. Hell, I think he is hot lol

[caroljane]

This, according to Heller, was her choice to play Francisco.

Victor Newman, her fave. He's German, though. However I could see Laurence Harvey with an accent - and he was Lithuanian.

I think a lot of readers were expecting a young Ricardo Montalban or Fernando Lamas or, as you said, Errol Flynn. Now there was a playboy.

To Ellen, did you like the Peter Sellars Giovanni? I only saw it on TV but was just enthralled. I saw the singer playing Elvira died this year, she was unforgettable.

[9thdoctor]

The casting of Francisco upset me with a feeling of desecration -- and of protest against the insensitivity to Ayn.

I feel like y’all are going overboard on Francisco. I thought the actor was ok, he just didn’t have much to do. He may yet prove himself in the later installments.

[caroljane]

I bet he'll shave, for sure.

On the Hugh Akston somebody wrote that he seemed to "come out of another movie..unfortunately that movie was Easy Rider."

Edited April 21, 2011 by daunce lynam

[Ellen Stuttle]

The casting of Francisco upset me with a feeling of desecration -- and of protest against the insensitivity to Ayn.

I feel like y’all are going overboard on Francisco. I thought the actor was ok, he just didn’t have much to do. He may yet prove himself in the later installments.

The actor might have been ok. (I should have said the "portrayal" of Francisco, rather than the "casting.") He might have been able to do it if the directing had been good. It's the directing and the "look" (scruffy and facial-haired) which I object to.

I bet he'll shave, for sure.

I sure hope so.

On the Hugh Akston somebody wrote that he seemed to "come out of another movie..unfortunately that movie was Easy Rider."

Good quip.

To Ellen, did you like the Peter Sellars Giovanni? I only saw it on TV but was just enthralled. I saw the singer playing Elvira died this year, she was unforgettable.

I didn't see it.

Ellen

[caroljane]

The casting of Francisco upset me with a feeling of desecration -- and of protest against the insensitivity to Ayn.

I feel like y’all are going overboard on Francisco. I thought the actor was ok, he just didn’t have much to do. He may yet prove himself in the later installments.

The actor might have been ok. (I should have said the "portrayal" of Francisco, rather than the "casting.") He might have been able to do it if the directing had been good. It's the directing and the "look" (scruffy and facial-haired) which I object to.

I bet he'll shave, for sure.

I sure hope so.

On the Hugh Akston somebody wrote that he seemed to "come out of another movie..unfortunately that movie was Easy Rider."

Good quip.

To Ellen, did you like the Peter Sellars Giovanni? I only saw it on TV but was just enthralled. I saw the singer playing Elvira died this year, she was unforgettable.

I didn't see it.

Ellen

If you ever do see it I would love to know your reaction. It was actually one of 3 s. set in modern NY - The Marriage of Figaro in the Trump Tower, Cosi fan Tutti in Little Italy, and Don G in Harlem. Giovanni and Leporello were played by twins as gang leader and lieutenant. I know how it sounds. Before I saw it I disdained "modern productions" and knew I could never fully enjoy my favourite opera except in its original context. Afterward I knew that art is timeless and the artists who re-conceive and re-present them know a whole lot more than I do. I could hear Mozart applauding with me.

[BaalChatzaf]

This, according to Heller, was her choice to play Francisco.

Keerist! A Nazi to play Franscisco?????

Why not? She thought a serial killer that looked like a Viking was kinda romantic.

Ba'al Chatzaf

[BaalChatzaf]

I also disliked the choice for Hugh Akston. As I've said on a different thread, to me he looks like the type of a fair number of present-day philosophy professors, i.e., not like Akston.

Ellen

Morgan Freeman is too expensive these days, but he would have made a perfect Hugh Akston.

Ba'al Chatzaf

[Reidy]

Heller also pointed out that Rand lost interest in Braeden once she heard about his politics.

For years I thought that if the movie ever got made it would spoil the beloved Objectivist pastime of casting it. Didn't happen.

[Ellen Stuttle]

This, according to Heller, was her choice to play Francisco.

Keerist! A Nazi to play Franscisco?????

Why not? She thought a serial killer that looked like a Viking was kinda romantic.

Ba'al Chatzaf

Where do you get that he's a Nazi?

From the photos, I see why AR thought he resembles Frank in his younger years.

(Btw, Hickman wasn't "a serial killer.")

Morgan Freeman is too expensive these days, but he would have made a perfect Hugh Akston.

I think Morgan Freeman would have been perfect, too -- see -- when he was younger. I think he's too old now, as well as too expensive. He'd already have been the latter for this film's budget years ago. I suppose Banderas (Shayne's choice for Francisco) would also be too expensive.

Ellen

[Ellen Stuttle]

If you ever do see it [the Peter Sellars Giovanni] I would love to know your reaction. It was actually one of 3 s. set in modern NY - The Marriage of Figaro in the Trump Tower, Cosi fan Tutti in Little Italy, and Don G in Harlem. Giovanni and Leporello were played by twins as gang leader and lieutenant. I know how it sounds. Before I saw it I disdained "modern productions" and knew I could never fully enjoy my favourite opera except in its original context. Afterward I knew that art is timeless and the artists who re-conceive and re-present them know a whole lot more than I do. I could hear Mozart applauding with me.

I used to be leery of "modern productions," whether of plays or operas. I'd seen a couple Shakespeare modernizations which I thought were gimmicky and generally bad.

But more-recent experiences have left me thinking that a modernization can make a work come alive in a way that's even better than the original time setting. The "Don Giovanni" we saw in Vienna, for both Larry and me, made the opera seem like a tale with full current relevance. Similarly, about a year ago we saw a Hartford Stage production of "A Midsummer Night's Dream" which was set in the '50s and left both of us feeling that now we really understand the story.

Another switch, though not a modernization, we both loved was the film version of "The Tempest" with Helen Mirren as "Prospera."

Ellen

[Xray]

The casting of Francisco upset me with a feeling of desecration -- and of protest against the insensitivity to Ayn. She hated facial hair. She meant it. See for instance the tale Harry Binswanger recounts in 100 Voices of Frank's once, in her and Frank's early years together, starting to grow a mustache and her being upset, saying it ruined a beautiful face, and insisting he shave it off.

D'Anconia's beard is totally un-Randian indeed.

I always visualized D'Anconia resembling young Alain Delon:

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://cruiselinehistory.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/alain_delon.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.tvforen.de/read.php%3F4,1133722,1133722&h=600&w=400&sz=50&tbnid=GoCz7Ar1gOMieM:&tbnh=135&tbnw=90&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dalain%2Bdelon%26tbm%3Disch%26tbo%3Du&zoom=1&q=alain+delon&usg=__ULlV0hWYiz15lVnDfN7ZaDLBK70=&sa=X&ei=F0-wTaiPLM3xsgaqzaD4Cw&ved=0CCkQ9QEwAw

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://collider.com/uploads/imageGallery/Alain_Delon_Collection/alain_delon_collection_dvd__large_.jpg&imgrefurl=http://collider.com/dvd/reviews/article.asp/aid/7811/tcid/3&h=768&w=556&sz=50&tbnid=dmChfNdqkpWT4M:&tbnh=142&tbnw=103&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dalain%2Bdelon%26tbm%3Disch%26tbo%3Du&zoom=1&q=alain+delon&usg=__hKAmmLob4WPVi28KprbXmAKwWhY=&sa=X&ei=F0-wTaiPLM3xsgaqzaD4Cw&ved=0CDEQ9QEwBw

Edited April 21, 2011 by Xray

[Ellen Stuttle]

I always visualized D'Anconia resembling young Alain Delon:

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://cruiselinehistory.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/alain_delon.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.tvforen.de/read.php%3F4,1133722,1133722&h=600&w=400&sz=50&tbnid=GoCz7Ar1gOMieM:&tbnh=135&tbnw=90&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dalain%2Bdelon%26tbm%3Disch%26tbo%3Du&zoom=1&q=alain+delon&usg=__ULlV0hWYiz15lVnDfN7ZaDLBK70=&sa=X&ei=F0-wTaiPLM3xsgaqzaD4Cw&ved=0CCkQ9QEwAw

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://collider.com/uploads/imageGallery/Alain_Delon_Collection/alain_delon_collection_dvd__large_.jpg&imgrefurl=http://collider.com/dvd/reviews/article.asp/aid/7811/tcid/3&h=768&w=556&sz=50&tbnid=dmChfNdqkpWT4M:&tbnh=142&tbnw=103&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dalain%2Bdelon%26tbm%3Disch%26tbo%3Du&zoom=1&q=alain+delon&usg=__hKAmmLob4WPVi28KprbXmAKwWhY=&sa=X&ei=F0-wTaiPLM3xsgaqzaD4Cw&ved=0CDEQ9QEwBw

Oh, god. Now you've done it. I need some cool air, suddenly warm in here.

Alain Delon is exactly who I thought of in connection with Francisco when I was 18.5 first reading the book.

Furthermore, I had a relationship at the time with a playboy sort a couple years older than I. He resembled Alain Delon, and I thought the relationship between Francisco and Dagny resembled his and my relationship.......

Glory days. Youth, energy. Horses. I was an avid equestrienne. My horses were boarded at the young man's family's stable. Memories.......

Ellen

[Ellen Stuttle]

Furthermore, I had a relationship at the time with a playboy sort a couple years older than I. He resembled Alain Delon, and I thought the relationship between Francisco and Dagny resembled his and my relationship.......

It belatedly occurred to me that that comment could be misunderstood. I knew what I was talking about but no one else would know. What I meant was the guiltless fun of Francisco's and Dagny's early relationship. Francisco wasn't a fake playboy then. When he became one (Dagny didn't know Francisco was faking the playboy appearance), Dagny was tortured wondering how Francisco could be living as he seemed to be living.

By contrast, the fact of my friends' being rather a playboy gave me cause to question Rand's view, stated in one scene by Francisco, that the playboy is a depraved person. I thought, maybe sometimes, but not always. I didn't believe -- and never came to believe -- that my friend was depraved. He liked women. He loved sex ("Ellen, sex is beautiful," he once said to me looking so beatific. He meant the sentiment). There was an innocence about the whole thing, and he was up-front with everyone with whom he was involved. Later he "settled down" and developed a serious lasting relationship.

Ellen

[Xray]

Oh, god. Now you've done it. I need some cool air, suddenly warm in here.

Alain Delon is exactly who I thought of in connection with Francisco when I was 18.5 first reading the book.

Young Delon was so incredibly attractive that I almost missed the plot in his films because I was staring at him all the time.

"Rocco And His Brothers" is my favorite film with him:

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.sensesofcinema.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/RoccoHisBrothers.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.sensesofcinema.com/2010/cteq/rocco-and-his-brothers/&usg=__qzXhKvsWUhb_hBIlfMoj7re_o7E=&h=450&w=621&sz=93&hl=de&start=0&zoom=1&tbnid=QknVW7wQwnfodM:&tbnh=148&tbnw=197&ei=DV-xTaXVCMnLsgaA_NHpCw&prev=/search%3Fq%3DRocco%2Band%2Bhis%2Bbrothers%26um%3D1%26hl%3Dde%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26sa%3DN%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:de:official%26biw%3D1280%26bih%3D832%26tbm%3Disch&um=1&itbs=1&iact=hc&vpx=133&vpy=153&dur=1828&hovh=191&hovw=264&tx=120&ty=210&page=1&ndsp=24&ved=1t:429,r:0,s:0

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.moviemartyr.com/images/1960rocco02.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.moviemartyr.com/1960/roccoandhisbrothers.htm&usg=__F4fRlem2DJPojbl8wTSje2z-WwE=&h=270&w=214&sz=20&hl=de&start=24&zoom=1&tbnid=5GNUJevt6FWy_M:&tbnh=155&tbnw=123&ei=U2CxTemRM5DJswbKgan0Cw&prev=/search%3Fq%3DRooco%2Band%2Bhis%2Bbrothers%26um%3D1%26hl%3Dde%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26sa%3DN%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:de:official%26biw%3D1280%26bih%3D832%26tbm%3Disch0%2C570&um=1&itbs=1&iact=hc&vpx=408&vpy=272&dur=24&hovh=216&hovw=171&tx=123&ty=98&page=2&ndsp=26&ved=1t:429,r:1,s:24&biw=1280&bih=832

Furthermore, I had a relationship at the time with a playboy sort a couple years older than I. He resembled Alain Delon, and I thought the relationship between Francisco and Dagny resembled his and my relationship.......

Glory days. Youth, energy. Horses. I was an avid equestrienne. My horses were boarded at the young man's family's stable. Memories.......

Interesting, isn't it, that we, in those trips down memory lane, have no difficulty evoking the feelings we had back then. It all becomes so vivid again. Actually your few sentences here have even evoked a picture in my head of the scenario although I have never been there myself. I just "see" you ride as a eighteen-year-old girl in a green landscape at breakneck speed and enjoying it ...

Edited April 22, 2011 by Xray

[Xray]

What I meant was the guiltless fun of Francisco's and Dagny's early relationship. Francisco wasn't a fake playboy then.

He wasn't a fake playboy but I was quite shocked at his violating the NIOF principle in the scene where he suddenly hits Dagny in the face.

I bet they did not show this scene in the film (let alone Dagny's "reaction" to it).

By contrast, the fact of my friends' being rather a playboy gave me cause to question Rand's view, stated in one scene by Francisco, that the playboy is a depraved person. I thought, maybe sometimes, but not always. I didn't believe -- and never came to believe -- that my friend was depraved. He liked women. He loved sex ("Ellen, sex is beautiful," he once said to me looking so beatific. He meant the sentiment). There was an innocence about the whole thing, and he was up-front with everyone with whom he was involved.

I get the impression that your friend was not really what one would call a "playboy" (like e.g. the rich spoiled heir squandering Daddy's hard-earned bucks at the roulette table), but that he was simply a passionate young man who loved life.

Edited April 22, 2011 by Xray

[caroljane]

Glory days. Youth, energy. Horses. I was an avid equestrienne. My horses were boarded at the young man's family's stable. Memories.......

Ellen

Beautifully evocative, Ellen.

But I am shocked -shocked!- that your most exciting memories are not of the thrilling regular arrival of the Objectivist Newsletter. The bold arrogant blue, the stark uncompromising white, the sternly serene boneheadedness of some of the stuff inside it....

"Bliss was it in that dawn to be alive..."

Edited April 22, 2011 by daunce lynam

[Ellen Stuttle]

But I am shocked -shocked!- that your most exciting memories are not of the thrilling regular arrival of the Objectivist Newsletter. The bold arrogant blue, the stark uncompromising white, the sternly serene boneheadedness of some of the stuff inside it....

"Bliss was it in that dawn to be alive..."

That "thrilling regular arrival" was later. I learned of the existence of Objectivism proper, NBI, and the newsletter in spring '63 through an odd occurrence. I'd re-read and studied Atlas, but I was saving The Fountainhead for a relatively free stretch of time. The copy of the book I started reading was a bookclub edition my mother had had on a shelf for years. I was about 2/3 finished with it when I came upon a signature which had been duplicated, leaving out the correct portion of the book. This was in the middle of the night and I had to wait till stores opened to go buy another copy of the book. The copy I bought had a postcard insert... Yes, they did the inserts in those days, too. I subscribed to the newsletter and bought all the back copies to date.

The regular arrival of the newsletter, and then The Objectivist thereafter, WAS thrilling. It might be hard for people who weren't reading the stuff as it appeared to imagine the anticipation with which the story-in-progress was awaited. Now we can pore over all of it as a total record, scrutinizing each scrap of wording from multiple microscopic angles. Then, who knew what she was going to say next?

I always did have objections to some of it, often especially to things in NB's articles. Still, for a number of years, I did eagerly await each new issue.

Ellen

[Johnny12]

The Fransisco actor did an okay job. I however didn't like Fransisco's whole (very limited role) in the movie. In the book he's maybe my favorite character, in the movie who really never get to understand him and his significance.

[Ellen Stuttle]

[Francisco] wasn't a fake playboy [in his and Dagny's youth] but I was quite shocked at his violating the NIOF principle in the scene where he suddenly hits Dagny in the face.

I bet they did not show this scene in the film (let alone Dagny's "reaction" to it).

They didn't show anything from the childhood material. There are only a couple hints that Francisco and Dagny had had a relationship.

I wasn't shocked in the context by his striking her, or by her reaction.

By contrast, the fact of my friends' being rather a playboy gave me cause to question Rand's view, stated in one scene by Francisco, that the playboy is a depraved person. I thought, maybe sometimes, but not always. I didn't believe -- and never came to believe -- that my friend was depraved. He liked women. He loved sex ("Ellen, sex is beautiful," he once said to me looking so beatific. He meant the sentiment). There was an innocence about the whole thing, and he was up-front with everyone with whom he was involved.

I get the impression that your friend was not really what one would call a "playboy" (like e.g. the rich spoiled heir squandering Daddy's hard-earned bucks at the roulette table), but that he was simply a passionate young man who loved life.

Agreed, if "playboy" is taken to connote the sort of person you describe. But in the book Francisco specifically talks of the man who "sleeps around" -- not using that term, just the idea. In his discourse to Rearden about the nature of sex, he asks if Rearden takes him, Francisco, for a person of no self-esteem. I think it was in particular the idea that someone who has a lot of non-committed sexual relationships is trying to fake a self-esteem he lacks which I thought just wasn't what it was about with my friend.

Ellen

[caroljane]

But I am shocked -shocked!- that your most exciting memories are not of the thrilling regular arrival of the Objectivist Newsletter. The bold arrogant blue, the stark uncompromising white, the sternly serene boneheadedness of some of the stuff inside it....

"Bliss was it in that dawn to be alive..."

That "thrilling regular arrival" was later. I learned of the existence of Objectivism proper, NBI, and the newsletter in spring '63 through an odd occurrence. I'd re-read and studied Atlas, but I was saving The Fountainhead for a relatively free stretch of time. The copy of the book I started reading was a bookclub edition my mother had had on a shelf for years. I was about 2/3 finished with it when I came upon a signature which had been duplicated, leaving out the correct portion of the book. This was in the middle of the night and I had to wait till stores opened to go buy another copy of the book. The copy I bought had a postcard insert... Yes, they did the inserts in those days, too. I subscribed to the newsletter and bought all the back copies to date.

The regular arrival of the newsletter, and then The Objectivist thereafter, WAS thrilling. It might be hard for people who weren't reading the stuff as it appeared to imagine the anticipation with which the story-in-progress was awaited. Now we can pore over all of it as a total record, scrutinizing each scrap of wording from multiple microscopic angles. Then, who knew what she was going to say next?

I always did have objections to some of it, often especially to things in NB's articles. Still, for a number of years, I did eagerly await each new issue.

Ellen

Ellen, my comment was too flippant but that is usually my way. I know that the thrill was real. My friends felt it, and I was certainly interested to read "what will she say next" - I was always the last to get the handed-around single copy, the group was frugal.

I only actually read a few Newsletters in 1968 and then the strange announcement and the mysterious name of Peikoff. Nobody in Toronto had the faintest clue of what had happened, or if they did they did not tell anybody. I never did know until I reconnected with my Objectivist friend about three years ago and read The Passion of Ayn Rand. What an installment that turned out to be.

As is obvious I was never an Objectivist, as I have mentioned before, I lack the Eureka receptor. My experience was I think opposite to yours; I infer that you discovered Rand by reading her and found Objectivists through pursuing your interest. I was introduced to the philosophy by dear friends, and basically a fellow-traveller. I read, I reasoned, but it never felt like a "fit" with me and nothing resonated with what I had previously felt and thought, or subsequently did.

But the interest, indeed the fascination, with the story of Rand and her movement,is obviously enduring. It's so great to discuss them with people "who were there."And still are!