To Birther or Not To Birther, That is the Question

[BaalChatzaf]

"I think the president's problem is that he was born a Muslim, his father was a Muslim. The seed of Islam is passed through the father like the seed of Judaism is passed through the mother. He was born a Muslim, his father gave him an Islamic name."

In TNKH (what the heathens call the Old Testament) tribal membership is inherited from the father. In later times the Rabbis decreed that with all the rapine committed against Jewish women the only sure thing that could be determined was who the mother of the child is. This is rabbinic, not biblical. It is a practical measure. Also, it is the mother who brings up a child and shapes the child's religious outlook. So in later times, Jewishness is reckoned to come through the mother, not the father.

Ba'al Chatzaf

[william.scherk]

"I think the president's problem is that he was born a Muslim, his father was a Muslim. The seed of Islam is passed through the father like the seed of Judaism is passed through the mother. He was born a Muslim, his father gave him an Islamic name."

In TNKH (what the heathens call the Old Testament) tribal membership is inherited from the father. In later times the Rabbis decreed that with all the rapine committed against Jewish women the only sure thing that could be determined was who the mother of the child is. This is rabbinic, not biblical. It is a practical measure. Also, it is the mother who brings up a child and shapes the child's religious outlook. So in later times, Jewishness is reckoned to come through the mother, not the father.

Right. So . . . the seed of Judaism is passed through the mother, and the seed of Islam is passed through the father, and thus Obama was 'born a Muslim.'

'Would an Objectivist Child be taught that one could be 'born a Muslim'?

[Selene]

Knock, knock...

Who's there?

Kenya...

Kenya who?

Ready........................................................

Kenya show me your BIRTH CERTIFICATE?

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

I'm sure you are aware that some say Trump has no solid business achievements - that it's all smoke, mirrors, hot air, and debt.

Jeff,

I have difficulty looking at fancy buildings, TV shows with top ratings, physical bestselling books, and pretending they don't exist. They do exist. I can point to them and everybody can see them. So I have to go with my eyes on this one and not what "some say." I believe most people will do the same.

If you are talking about Trump's character and manipulations, that's another matter. He's left too much physical verifiable stuff in his wake, though, for "some people's" views (that it doesn't really exist) ever to gain any traction--even with me.

As to your delusions about the people of America rising up in wrath at Obama because they realize he's manipulating them...

The image is wrong. The one you present obviously doesn't ring true.

There is no collective that will rise up in wrath.

There are only individuals who will feel duped on an individual basis. I doubt they will organize around that basis. I have no doubt that basis will be used as a talking point by people who do organize, but that's another matter.

That's just how persuasion techniques work. If you like, I can point to any number of large-scale trends and say what was operating where this is the case, going from women deciding to smoke in public on up to how Nazi Germany happened.

Can anyone imagine with a straight face that the German people rose up in a collective wrath to elect Adolf Hitler and try to conquer the world? I can't. Especially since that's not what happened.

In fact, had the Internet been around back then, I seriously doubt Germany would have turned into a Nazi war machine. Part of Goebbels propaganda magic was based on limiting information the public had available. I believe Hitler would have suffered what I am imagining Obama will suffer--if Obama is playing the game I think he is. And it would not have happened because the German people rose up in a collective wrath to punish Adolf Hitler. It would have happened because "the big lie" would have freely available information disproving it and people would start to distrust the source of that lie.

Of all the persuasion techniques, trust is the most effective, but it is the trickiest. Once it is lost mainstream-wise, it is very, very hard to get back.

Michael

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

No one has yet rebutted the Certification of Live Birth...

William,

Rebutting it is not the point of trust for the persuasion stuff I am talking about.

And there is only one way to rebut it anyway--examine the original document.

Obama's refusal to present the original document is the point of trust.

Once again, if distrust sets in the way it is going, it won't matter what the original document ultimately says, nor whether Obama is natural born or not. His credibility as a trustworthy person will be shot in the minds of normal everyday folks.

Some people--especially those who think that those ask to see the original document are unbelievably stupid--like to imagine that spitting hairs gains trust. It doesn't. That causes even more distrust once the wave starts going in the distrust direction.

Here's another example of what I mean. Meg Whitman lost the election for California Governor because the majority of voters ended up not trusting her. It didn't really matter whether she was right or wrong about the maid. The fact is that she tried to hair-split instead of just saying something like, "Oops, that slipped my mind. I didn't correctly understand it at the time, but still my bad. I am so sorry and here are the amends I am making. That certainly will never happen again. Let's make sure this doesn't happen with others, too."

People trust folks who do that. They don't trust folks who manipulate and distort stuff in order to be right at all costs.

Obama's birth certificate issue--his insistence on presenting a Certification of Live Birth and refusing to present even a photocopy of the original--is starting to be perceived is as a manipulation. Distrust is setting in.

Good luck trying to hair-split that back to trust once it hardens.

Michael

[william.scherk]

No one has yet rebutted the Certification of Live Birth...

Rebutting it is not the point of trust for the persuasion stuff I am talking about.

Right. Trust and persuasion stuff is important, but regardless of the truth claims?

. I do not find Graham persuasive, and I don't trust the motives of Corsi and ilk. I don't find the 'hoax' bumf persuasive, and I don't trust the anti-Muslim loons who peddle the bumf. I don't find any argument that adequately explains the lack of fit between the facts and the birther fringe -- as here, Michael, I asserted that there is prima facie evidence -- that it is trustworthy, that it is persuasive, and that no credible challenge to that evidence has been adduced.

Some people--especially those who think that those ask to see the original document are unbelievably stupid--like to imagine that spitting hairs gains trust. It doesn't. That causes even more distrust once the wave starts going in the distrust direction.

That's the thing. The wave is not going anywhere. And who are these 'some people'? Me? Am I splitting hairs?

The hair seems to be split with those who claim a 'certification' is not 'certifiable' and other such similar shavings.

People [ . . . ] don't trust folks who manipulate and distort stuff in order to be right at all costs.

I would have to agree. And the manipulation and distortion, to my eyes, comes from the kookiepants folks.

[BaalChatzaf]

Right. So . . . the seed of Judaism is passed through the mother, and the seed of Islam is passed through the father, and thus Obama was 'born a Muslim.'

The seed of any religion comes through the mother. Making the mother the carrier of the creed was a political and practical decree and was not ordained by G-D or the Prophets. Mothers are the ones who shape the thinking of their young children, not the fathers.

However, even today, the reckoning of which Jews are Cohanim, or Priests is still reckoned through the father. If a Jewish boy is born to a mother who is the daughter of a Coheyn and a father who is not, the son is not a Coheyn.

Ba'al Chatzaf

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Right. Trust and persuasion stuff is important, but regardless of the truth claims?

William,

I have not positioned my comments this way as a value judgment--one being more important than the other.

I stated from the first post I was discussing persuasion, not the merits of the claims. The only merit I have discussed is that there is only one undeniable proof, one that overrides everything else--the original birth certificate. And the law says that, not me.

That's the document Obama is playing with. If he wants popular support with no danger whatsoever, he will provide a copy and say, "There. Look all you want. Now can we get back to the important issues?"

His credibility would increase.

But I believe he wants to gamble with this.

The wave is not going anywhere. And who are these 'some people'? Me?

Not going anywhere? Sez you.

I must have been unclear, though. I was discussing mainstream Americans, basically right and center.

You can be accused of many things, but having a mainstream American mentality is not one of them.

So it doesn't matter what you think of Graham, Corsi or anything else from the perspective of persuasion--unless you try to persuade mainstream Americans. Unless that happens, I doubt your opinions--and those of people who agree wit you--will register on the radar of them.

Those are the ones who will decide the vote in 2012.

Michael

EDIT: I decided to look up the law just to verify and validate. Hawaii could not have made it more difficult (one html page per statue article--all without titles. Puhleeze!... Go to some of the statute links on this page and see for yourself.). And it looks like a lot of text on the state government's sites has been rewritten due to the controversy.

I'll keep digging, though.

[anthony]

Weighing in my two dollars, an honest man does not play games of "Gotcha!" - especially when holding public office - especially the most powerful public officer in the world.

From what I've seen, it looks like he can put all the rumors to rest in a day, but is holding an ace up his sleeve for later.

As a rough comparison, what happens time and again in my country is that highly placed (right to the top) government goons are technically found innocent of corruptiom, nepotism, and so on, but are of such low character and integrity, that it's common knowledge they are dirty. Confidence among the citizenry suffers, as a result of lack of transparency.

Tony

[caroljane]

Seems to me O is in a no-win situation all 3 ways.

If he doesn't produce it but gives a reason: Say for example, some incompetent back then lost the long form or failed to file it. Hospitals have been known to mix up and even lose actual babies, so I'd believe that one, but the diehard birthers probably wouldn't.

He produces it. The dhb's would probably think him capable of forging it.

He continues to ignore the issue. Status quo.

[9thdoctor]

Weighing in my two dollars, an honest man does not play games of "Gotcha!" - especially when holding public office - especially the most powerful public officer in the world.

An honest man doesn't get elected POTUS.

Every election is a sort of advance auction sale of stolen goods.

H. L. Mencken

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

I just saw an Anderson Cooper report where he gave everything but the kitchen sink as a reason no one should even want to see the original birth certificate. (See it here if anyone is interested.)

The thing that jumped out at me was that the VO narrator said that a recent CNN poll revealed that 25% of Americans doubt Obama was born in the USA.

25%?!!

That's a CNN poll, not a Fox News poll.

That's what I call a PR disaster if Obama is not playing poker, like I believe he is.

Like I said, this thing is growing. It's not going to go away, but instead get worse, until the document is disclosed, or people find out that government employees have been lying about seeing it. (Of course, it's unthinkable that USA government employees would ever lie about anything... )

Michael

[Rich Engle]

Then, it is going to get really haenky<tm> once they discover that he was grown in a vat.

rde

But we all knew this.

P.S. Still time to enter the caption contest!

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Another poll (which was even featured on Drudge just now). This time from USA Today:

Quoting from that link:

... in the USA TODAY poll, only 38% of Americans say Obama definitely was born in the USA, and 18% say he probably was. Fifteen percent say he probably was born in another country, and 9% say he definitely was born elsewhere.

. . .

The poll of 1,013 adults, taken Wednesday to Saturday, has a margin of error of +/–4 percentage points.

It just gets worser and worser...

Michael

[Selene]

This was posted on Hyscience which is a conservative blog site here.

My personal position is that, regardless of the original interpretation and intent of the Framers in regards to "natural born," O'biwan was born from an American citizen. End of story. He is qualified to run for President.

However, I agree with the following statement by this blogger.

"And as I've said many times before; regardless of whether or not Obama was born in the U.S., maybe, just maybe, we'll end up finding out why Obama refuses to release his kindergarten records, his Punahou school records, his Occidental College records, his Columbia University records, his Columbia thesis, his Harvard Law School records, his Harvard Law Review articles, his scholarly articles from the University of Chicago, his passport, his medical records, his files from his years as an Illinois state senator, his Illinois State Bar Association records, any baptism records and his adoption records.

I'm not obsessed with whether or not Obama was born in Hawaii, Kenya, China, or even Timbuktu for that matter, but like the 4 in 10 Americans that don't think he was born in the U.S.,

That is not to much to expect from anyone who submits themselves to us for election to public office.

Adam

[BaalChatzaf]

That is not to much to expect from anyone who submits themselves to us for election to public office.

Adam

Obama submitted exactly what I would submit for proof of birth.

Anyone born in U.S. territory is a U.S. Citizen according to the 14th Amendment and since that is the latest definition of what a born citizen that is the one that applies. The man was born in Hawaii to an American woman. That makes him a natural born citizen of the U.S.A.

Ba'al Chatzaf

[Selene]

That is not to much to expect from anyone who submits themselves to us for election to public office.

Adam

Obama submitted exactly what I would submit for proof of birth.

Anyone born in U.S. territory is a U.S. Citizen according to the 14th Amendment and since that is the latest definition of what a born citizen that is the one that applies. The man was born in Hawaii to an American woman. That makes him a natural born citizen of the U.S.A.

Ba'al Chatzaf

Robert:

That is what I said.

The statement you quoted applies to his release of his prior records from school, state senate and other public information, e.g., his passport.

Adam

[Rich Engle]

I don't care where he was born. Do you? He's in the catbird seat, and he's a TotalDouche<tm>. That's all that really matters.

He's a ding-dong mouthpiece.

Although, it has been years since a good impeachment hearing. That would be sporty.

rde

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

I just saw Chris Matthews go at it with Pat Buchanan (a video on Real Clear Politics, see here).

Buchanan basically asked Matthews why he was defending nondisclosure so hard. And Matthews yelled and yelled--even more than normal. Then Buchanan said that the main issue was Obama stonewalling things, Matthews went nuts, yelling that is not the problem at all, yadda yadda yadda. At the start, he did acknowledge the rapidly increasing numbers of people who doubt Obama's birth in the USA, but demonstrated total perplexity about why that is happening. This was right before the yelling started.

The weird part was that the yelling was somewhat snarky, as is usual for him, but not at all angry. It had a different tone to it and I couldn't put my finger on what it was.

Then the realization hit, the gates opened, insight flooded in and it all made sense again.

Chris Matthews was scared.

Now I know why there is so much screaming and bullying about this in the mainstream (and elsewhere) when someone suggests Obama simply show the document so we can move on. People are terrified at the possibility of what could happen if there actually ends up being a problem with Obama's eligibility.

In other words, I believe these folks doubt it themselves. They just don't want to lose power. So it's far, far better not to know for sure than to find out and possibly lose everything in a disgraceful manner. What would happen to all those laws Obama signed? Would they become null and void? Would the then President Biden be able to re-sign them? Talk about a holy mess!

Getting Obama to disclose the original document for them is like playing Russian Roulette. The only way to guarantee they will not get shot is to not shoot in the first place.

Whew!

Now I understand that part.

OK, OK, maybe I wasn't the sharpest tool in the shed on that matter--them being scared to death--since it's so damn obvious, but at least the blade eventually got sharpened.

Michael

[Selene]

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Edited April 27, 2011 by Selene

[Brant Gaede]

I just saw Chris Matthews go at it with Pat Buchanan (a video on Real Clear Politics, see here).

Buchanan basically asked Matthews why he was defending nondisclosure so hard. And Matthews yelled and yelled--even more than normal. Then Buchanan said that the main issue was Obama stonewalling things, Matthews went nuts, yelling that is not the problem at all, yadda yadda yadda. At the start, he did acknowledge the rapidly increasing numbers of people who doubt Obama's birth in the USA, but demonstrated total perplexity about why that is happening. This was right before the yelling started.

The weird part was that the yelling was somewhat snarky, as is usual for him, but not at all angry. It had a different tone to it and I couldn't put my finger on what it was.

Then the realization hit, the gates opened, insight flooded in and it all made sense again.

Chris Matthews was scared.

Now I know why there is so much screaming and bullying about this in the mainstream (and elsewhere) when someone suggests Obama simply show the document so we can move on. People are terrified at the possibility of what could happen if there actually ends up being a problem with Obama's eligibility.

In other words, I believe these folks doubt it themselves. They just don't want to lose power. So it's far, far better not to know for sure than to find out and possibly lose everything in a disgraceful manner. What would happen to all those laws Obama signed? Would they become null and void? Would the then President Biden be able to re-sign them? Talk about a holy mess!

Getting Obama to disclose the original document for them is like playing Russian Roulette. The only way to guarantee they will not get shot is to not shoot in the first place.

Whew!

Now I understand that part.

OK, OK, maybe I wasn't the sharpest tool in the shed on that matter--them being scared to death--since it's so damn obvious, but at least the blade eventually got sharpened.

Michael

If they are scared they are stupid or ignorant. The Federal courts have taken the position that Obama was okay to be President. They might have to twist themselves all out of shape to stay that course but they will. They do not want to declare themselves wrong or asses or deal with the countless legal messes of changing their minds. The Supreme Court, in a matter of months or weeks will make a declarative judgment stating he's the President and all that he did was legal insofar as he was President to spike all the legalities in the crib if it comes to that. The only question is what happens in 2012 and the next Democratic convention?

--Brant

can you believe that so far the best next President is Obama, not a Republican replacement?--who TF are these Reps?

[Brant Gaede]

I just saw Chris Matthews go at it with Pat Buchanan (a video on Real Clear Politics, see here).

Buchanan basically asked Matthews why he was defending nondisclosure so hard. And Matthews yelled and yelled--even more than normal. Then Buchanan said that the main issue was Obama stonewalling things, Matthews went nuts, yelling that is not the problem at all, yadda yadda yadda. At the start, he did acknowledge the rapidly increasing numbers of people who doubt Obama's birth in the USA, but demonstrated total perplexity about why that is happening. This was right before the yelling started.

The weird part was that the yelling was somewhat snarky, as is usual for him, but not at all angry. It had a different tone to it and I couldn't put my finger on what it was.

Then the realization hit, the gates opened, insight flooded in and it all made sense again.

Chris Matthews was scared.

An hysteric.

--Brant

[Selene]

Finally we get his Columbia school transcripts...

[Selene]

Drudge is carrying the Certificate of Live Birth here.

Well now that is done.

Cannot believe that he let this go on this long.

Adam

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Thank goodness!

And thank you, Donald Trump, for forcing Obama's hand.

(I'm still not supporting Trump for pres, but that's another matter.)

I suspect the left will crow a little, but it will be short-lived. The political oomph has been deflated from the poker game.

Actually, on a personal level, I am hugely relieved the USA is not so screwed up yet that we would elect a foreigner under everyone's nose and not know it.

Michael