Equal Pay for Equal Work?

[Selene]

Carol:

This issue probably deserves its own thread.

This is from a very long article that is incredibly depressing about California in the US, but this tiny snippet is a perfect example of what is happening in my country because of the marxist unions that have metastasized the body politic of my country.

"Blame Vallejo’s politics, dominated by public-sector unions, for the city’s sorry fiscal situation. “Police and firefighter salaries, pensions and overtime accounted for 74 percent of Vallejo’s $80 million general budget, significantly higher than the state average of 60 percent,” reported a 2009 Cato Institute study. The study highlighted a shocking level of enrichment: pay and benefit packages of more than $300,000 a year for police captains and average firefighter compensation packages of $171,000 a year. Pensions are luxurious: regular public employees can retire at age 55 with 81 percent of their final year’s pay guaranteed, come hell or a stock-market crash. Police and fire officials in Vallejo, as in much of California, can retire at age 50 with 90 percent of their final year’s pay guaranteed, including cost-of-living adjustments for the rest of their lives and the lives of their spouses. And that’s before taking advantage of the common pension-spiking schemes that propel payouts even higher."

http://www.city-journal.org/2010/20_2_california-unions.html

The article has some pretty funny cartoons, in a black humor way.

There is a move in the US by State governments to fathom a way for the states to declare bankruptcy.

Adam

[caroljane]

Aaaaaahhh, the police. I was thinking of the nurses and garbage collectors and so on...(my view being, the less anybody would want to do a job, the more you ought to pay them). Cops are chronically overpaid for one of the most statistically safe jobs anywhere, they are under-scrutinized,....G20, Ottawa, glub glub....

Firefighters, I don't know. That job is health-hazardous, and there are a lot of fires in California.

If there were any way to freeze pay for every new intake of rookies for the years it would take to save the needed money, it would sure show who really wants to "serve and protect" and who just wants to wear the badge.

Btw my brother-in-law was a cop as are four of my and my son's friends. They are wonderful.

[william.scherk]

[T]his tiny snippet is a perfect example of what is happening in my country because of the marxist unions that have metastasized the body politic of my country.

"Blame Vallejo’s politics, dominated by public-sector unions, for the city’s sorry fiscal situation. “Police and firefighter salaries, pensions and overtime accounted for 74 percent of Vallejo’s $80 million general budget, significantly higher than the state average of 60 percent,” reported a 2009 Cato Institute study.

First question: are the police and firefighter's unions in Vallejo an example of 'marxist unions'?

Second question: are you familiar with the outcome of the Vallejo financial crisis as it pertains to the unions you mention?

[Selene]

William:

No they are not "representative" of marxist unions, that was a more broad based statement.

Service Employees International Union (SEIU) being a serious example of a marxist union. John Sweeney at one time a prominent member of the Democratic Socialists of America. In 1980, Sweeney was elected president of the national SEIU.^[1] Sweeney continued to serve as president of Local 32BJ until mid-1981, and drew a salary as a consultant to the local until 1995.^[9]

^{I hope to start a thread about this issue. It appears that in the late 1950's, Robert Wagner, mayor of NY City made a tactical political decision on using public unions as a base to build the Democratic Party nationally. He brought it to President Kennedy, who agreed. They set out with a structural organization plan that worked well.}

^{It progeny were ACORN and other non-profits which gave us O'biwan. They are the Purple Shirts which put this President, who I consider a marxist in power.}

^{As to the result of the snippet that I used to illustrate the crisis to Carol, no, I am not, as yet aware of the outcome of Vallejo, unless you are talking about the arrests and indictments.}

^Adam

[caroljane]

sabotaged post. I name no names.

Edited February 5, 2011 by daunce lynam

[caroljane]

William:

No they are not "representative" of marxist unions, that was a more broad based statement.

Service Employees International Union (SEIU) being a serious example of a marxist union. John Sweeney at one time a prominent member of the Democratic Socialists of America. In 1980, Sweeney was elected president of the national SEIU.^[1] Sweeney continued to serve as president of Local 32BJ until mid-1981, and drew a salary as a consultant to the local until 1995.^[9]

^{I hope to start a thread about this issue. It appears that in the late 1950's, Robert Wagner, mayor of NY City made a tactical political decision on using public unions as a base to build the Democratic Party nationally. He brought it to President Kennedy, who agreed. They set out with a structural organization plan that worked well.}

^{It progeny were ACORN and other non-profits which gave us O'biwan. They are the Purple Shirts which put this President, who I consider a marxist in power.}

^{As to the result of the snippet that I used to illustrate the crisis to Carol, no, I am not, as yet aware of the outcome of Vallejo, unless you are talking about the arrests and indictments.}

^Adam

Adam, the SEIU are here, surrounding me even as we speak. They are "the fastest-growing" local in Ontario, comprising nursing-home, homecare and food-service workers, over 70% women and many immigrants. Gord only knows what they are up to in the other provinces. BC being what it is, they are probably running the trains and radio stations out there.

O Canada! Are we doomed to become even more Marxist than we already are?

[william.scherk]

As to the result of the snippet that I used to illustrate the crisis to Carol, no, I am not, as yet aware of the outcome of Vallejo, unless you are talking about the arrests and indictments.

What are you talking about? Are you mixing up Bell and Vallejo? If so, they are about 1200 road miles apart. In the one, the city declared bankruptcy and the bankruptcy judge tore up all union contracts with the city.

In the other, a city council mafia lined its pockets with millions in taxpayer money.

Neither city has any conceivable utility as examples or illustrations of evul morksist younyuns threatening American municipal/state/county solvency -- especially if you can't tell the difference or are uninformed about the details of each situation.

Why do you use illustrations that bear no relation to your claims, Adam?

Edited February 5, 2011 by william.scherk

[Selene]

As to the result of the snippet that I used to illustrate the crisis to Carol, no, I am not, as yet aware of the outcome of Vallejo, unless you are talking about the arrests and indictments.

What are you talking about? Are you mixing up Bell and Vallejo? If so, they are about 1200 road miles apart. In the one, the city declared bankruptcy and the bankruptcy judge tore up all union contracts with the city.

In the other, a city council mafia lined its pockets with millions in taxpayer money.

Neither city has any conceivable utility as examples or illustrations of evul morksist younyuns threatening American municipal/state/county solvency -- especially if you can't tell the difference or are uninformed about the details of each situation.

Why do you use illustrations that bear no relation to your claims, Adam?

William:

I have an obligation to keep you on your toes.

Neither city was cited as an example of anything but an example from that article of a single states impending collapse due to the exponential increase in public sector unions explosive and unfunded pension and benefits systems.

Counties can declare bankruptcy, but at present, the states cannot.

If you have an issue with my calling the public sector unions marxist, then I will refer to them as corrupt public sector unions.

I have no problem with the fact that the basic roots of unions in the US is marxist, communist, progressive, or syndicalist - take your pick.

Adam

[william.scherk]

O Canada! Are we doomed to become even more Marxist than we already are?

Make sure you don't mix up 'marxist' with 'Marxist,' Carol.

I used Adam's criteria -- by which he judges "O'biwan" as a marxist -- to point out the inevitable corollary for Canada: By Adam's standards, all Canadians labour under a Trotskyite regime, and inhabit an alien horror world far beyond Obamadracula's communist fantasies. I mean, using Adam's criteria, every single modern Canucki PM has also been to the left of Obamadracula, including our current PM.

He wrote in response that he didn't have that opinion of Canada . . . and presumably did not see the sense of my remarks.

I believe he is a marxist, small "m." I believe he wishes to transform the United States into a society that will be doomed to fail as a global power that can advance the good. I believe that he is dedicated to an agenda of centralized power which will continue the destruction of individual rights and freedoms that our Constitutional Republic was founded upon.

Like I said, Stephen Harper fits the bill of this description of a 'marxist.' But Stephen Harper calls himself a Conservative, and runs the government of Canada. If we think of Harper as a marxist, how shall we think of those folks a bit further to the left of him, like Ignatieff, or those even further to the left, like Layton?

How about those folks even further to the left, in the varied Quebec factions, or even farther -- of the feeble and demented rump Communists/Marxist-Leninists in Canada?

[william.scherk]

Neither city was cited as an example of anything but an example from that article of a single states impending collapse due to the exponential increase in public sector unions explosive and unfunded pension and benefits systems.

Neither city fits the bill, Adam. They are each shitty examples of your thesis. One is a mafia city, the other a broke, fucked up administration that went bankrupt.

As for you using 'marxist' as an all-purpose label that implies anything to the left of Washington, use it as you will, willy-nilly, wildly, at length and at the drop of a hat. It doesn't make a lot of sense to me, that's all.

Edited February 5, 2011 by william.scherk

[Selene]

William:

This is the quote from a very, very long and detailed article.

"Blame Vallejo’s politics, dominated by public-sector unions, for the city’s sorry fiscal situation."

Therefore, the author of this very long and detailed article made the statement in support of my general theory about public "service" unions nationwide which have, along with other statist, centralized, elected and appointed government managers squandered, stolen and abused the public's trust which has resulted in my country being on the brink of collapse.

Conclusively, your statement that the other, mentioned above in red, was "...a broke, fucked up administration that went bankrupt." Seems like the author of the very long and detailed article disagrees with you.

As do I.

Adam

[william.scherk]

"Blame Vallejo’s politics, dominated by public-sector unions, for the city’s sorry fiscal situation."

For your new thread, Adam, you may want to use actual the CATO study itself, entitled "Vallejo Con Dios: Why Public Sector Unionism Is a Bad Deal for Taxpayers and Representative Government."

There is another CATO study that would likely support some of your argument, "Public Sector Unions and the Rising Costs of Employee Compensation."

I have no particular issue with your opinions here -- outside of your habit of sticking marxist on anything that moves past you on the left -- but with your occasional truculence.

Sometimes it looks like you know fuck all about a subject that you confidently post on. As with Vallejo/Bell. You mixed them up, and I found it funny -- 'the arrests' were in Bell, not Vallejo; in the fucked-by-council-mafia city, not the fucked-by-marxist-monster-unions city. Not a big deal, I marked your error in attribution so you could correct yourself.

Were you ever a member of a public service union yourself?

[Selene]

William:

Unfortunately yes. We were forced to join when I taught at Queens College and when I was in NY City government.

My father was an organizer of the NY Fire Department Union in the late 1930's when the last of the volunteer companies were absorbed. The original beginning of the association was in 1919.

Adam

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Pay isn't the only value. Work quality is, too.

Just to throw some gasoline on the fire, here is a widely known story from Sun Tzu (reposted from the following site, but it's all over the Internet: Story about Sun Tzu and the kings’ concubines):

Sun Tzu’s book The Art of War, earned him an audience with the King of Wu, who said, “I have read your books, may I submit your theory of managing soldiers to a small test?”

Sun Tzu replied “Sir, you may.”

The King of Wu asked “Can the test be applied to women?”

Sun Tzu replied that it could, so arrangements were made to bring 180 beautiful women from the palace. Sun Tzu divided them into two troops with one of the King’s favourite concubines at the head of each. He the made all of them take spears in their hands and spoke to them: “I presume you know the difference between front and back, right and left?”

The women replied, “Yes. Of course”

Sun Tzu continued, “When to the sound of drums I order ‘eyes front,’ look straight ahead. When I order ‘left turn,’ face toward your left. When I order ‘right turn’, face toward your right. When I order turn around, face around to the back.

After the words of command had been explained, the women agreed they understood. He gave them spears so he could begin the drill. To the sound of drums, Sun Tzu ordered ‘right turn.’ In response the women burst out in laughter.

With great patience, Sun Tzu said, “If the instructions and words of command are not clear and distinct, if orders are not thoroughly understood, then the general is to blame.” He then repeated the explanations several times. This time he ordered the drums to signal ‘left turn,’ and again the women burst into laughter.

Then Sun Tzu said, “If the instructions and words of command are not clear and distinct, if orders are not thoroughly understood, the general is to blame. But if the commands are clear and the soldiers disobey, then it is the fault of the officers.” He immediately ordered the women who were at the head of the two troops to be beheaded.

Of course, the King was watching from a raised pavilion, and when he saw that his two favourite concubines were about to be executed, he was alarmed and swiftly sent down a message: “We are now quite satisfied as to the general’s ability to manage troops. Without these concubines, my food and drink will not taste good. It is the King’s wish that they not be beheaded.”

Sun Tzu replied, “Having received the sovereign’s commission to take charge and direct these troops, there are certain orders I cannot accept.” He immediately had the two concubines beheaded as an example and appointed the two next in line as the new leaders.

Now the drums were sounded and the drill began. The women performed all the maneuvers exactly as commanded. They drilled perfectly in precision and did not utter a single sound.

Sun Tzu sent a messenger to the King of Wu saying, “Your Majesty, the soldiers are now correctly drilled and perfectly disciplined. As sovereign, you may choose to require them to go through fire and water and they will not disobey.”

The King responded, “Our commander should cease the drill and return to his camp. We do not wish to come down and inspect the troops.”

With great calm, Sun Tzu said, “This King is only fond of words and cannot carry them into deeds.”

Commentary following this story indicates that the King relented, recognizing Sun Tzu’s ability and appointed him a general; and Sun Tzu won many battles.

Those women deserve equal pay.

(ducking...)

Michael

[Eudaimonist]

I believe in equal pay for equal work...

...but not payment in terms of money, which should be set by the agreements employees and employers set in a free market.

Rather, I believe that people should be payed equally in terms of respect for their earned accomplishments. It is spiritual payments that should be equal.

[Brant Gaede]

Money payments for work is profoundly spiritual.

--Brant

Edited August 13, 2011 by Brant Gaede

[BaalChatzaf]

I believe in equal pay for equal work...

...but not payment in terms of money, which should be set by the agreements employees and employers set in a free market.

Rather, I believe that people should be payed equally in terms of respect for their earned accomplishments. It is spiritual payments that should be equal.

How many cans of beans can the recipient of respect get at the supermarket in exchange for the respect?

Ba'al Chatzaf

[psychoanaleesis]

From an ethical standpoint, of course, the practice is immoral in the sense that the employer has committed injustice to his fellow man who has done honest work. Equal pay means that an employee receives what one has agreed to receive from the employer. The nature of the job, duration and terms are political and so is the comparison from worker to another worker as well as the inclusion of race or gender - so that these won't be discussed as the starter has requested.

"Equal pay" is the recognition that both parties i.e. employer and employee are using the same standards, same currency and same morality without which, such transactions would not be called employment but fraud. Essentially, the employer and employee exchanges 'goods' which benefit them both e.g. lightening the load/task that a person would have had to spend more time if he had to work alone. There should be a trade.

Now, the benefits derived from such transactions are not mutual because the employer usually gains more profit since he started the idea/task at hand such that the profit may be monetary, spiritual or mostly, both. What sanctions the equality between the two parties are two words in a concept: "Thank you." and "Gratitude" since these are noble recognition of the reality enclosed in any business.

I wonder why I often feel greasy when I say or hear "Welcome" in an activity with others which I consider trade.

Eudaimonist said:

"I believe in equal pay for equal work...

...but not payment in terms of money, which should be set by the agreements employees and employers set in a free market.

Rather, I believe that people should be payed equally in terms of respect for their earned accomplishments. It is spiritual payments that should be equal."

You have a point there. Now, should there be any inconsistency in the mode and manner of payment? You give the agreed amount of money exactly because that is the material equivalent of "earned accomplishment". This is done in recognition and respect that the employee has the right to pursue whatever interest he has after the goals are attained in the set time or quality.