The Egypt Mess and Beyond

[Richard Wiig]

Submission in Islam means surrender of the individual will to the will of Muhammad. Islam is a collectivist social system that sacrifices the individual to the Ummah. That they bicker and disagree to varying degrees as to what constitutes the will of Muhammad means sweet f.a. It's absolutely bizarre to see so-called Objectivists leaping to defend a collectivist system.

The Muslims claim they submit to the will of Allah as revealed through the words of the Prophet Mohamed (pus and blisters upon him).

Ba'al Chatzaf

Yes, but surely you don't believe them.

Edited February 8, 2011 by Infidel

[Richard Wiig]

I am not defending a collectivist system.

I am defending correct identification.

Rubbish. Trying to claim that Objectivism is about submission isn't about correct identification, it's about mitigating what was said about Islam - things said that you don't even attempt to gain the proper context of. The little bigot bell goes off in your head and you're off, with the injustice of charging people as bigots when they are anything but.

[Richard Wiig]

Here is another program by Glenn Beck dealing with intellectual issues for real instead of silly oversimplifications.

You'll be pleased to know that Robert Spencer has been briefing him on his Islam show.

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Trying to claim that Objectivism is about submission isn't about correct identification...

Richard,

I understand why you say this perfectly. I have noticed that you do not accept reality as it exists. Your posts are full of incorrect information and/or opinions that you present as if they were fact. I can see where you would find submitting your will to the dictates of reality offensive. You prefer prejudice and whim as your epistemological method--if one takes your posts as proof.

Submitting your will to reality is called reason.

Trying to submit reality to your prejudice and preaching hatred based on it is what you call reason.

I'll take the reality version.

Michael

[Richard Wiig]

Here is another program by Glenn Beck dealing with intellectual issues for real instead of silly oversimplifications.

I just read all the "highlights" in this post, and I find it truly bizarre. There's absolutely nothing in the highlights that has not been said a long time ago, by so many other anti-jihadists. The highlights here are nothing but reinforcements of what people who are well ahead of Glenn Beck have known talked about for years.

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

I just read all the "highlights" in this post, and I find it truly bizarre.

Richard,

I have no doubt you do.

Once you get your head out of the false dichotomy you are committed to (if that ever happens), you will no longer find it bizarre.

Reason and scapegoating are not compatible, but to a person committed to scapegoating and calling it reason, he gets perplexed when he encounters people who do not act and react according to his prejudices.

Michael

[BaalChatzaf]

The Muslims claim they submit to the will of Allah as revealed through the words of the Prophet Mohamed (pus and blisters upon him).

Ba'al Chatzaf

Yes, but surely you don't believe them.

I am only saying what the claim to be the case.

Ba'al Chatzaf

[Richard Wiig]

I just read all the "highlights" in this post, and I find it truly bizarre.

Richard,

I have no doubt you do.

What I find bizarre, Michael, is that when Glenn Beck presents these things, you consider them to be "dealing with intellectual issues for real instead of silly oversimplifications." even though they are exactly the same things that Robert Spencer says, but when Mr Spencer, and others, say them, they become oversimplifications. There's a severe inconsistency there.

[Richard Wiig]

The Muslims claim they submit to the will of Allah as revealed through the words of the Prophet Mohamed (pus and blisters upon him).

Ba'al Chatzaf

Yes, but surely you don't believe them.

I am only saying what the claim to be the case.

Ba'al Chatzaf

I know, but as we both know, there is no Allah, so there is only the will of Muhammad. Perhaps I am being pedantic, but I think the distinction matters. There seems to be no disagreement that the essence of Islam is submission - although Michael fears something, so he had to shift the focus by claiming that everyone submits in one way or another. Disintegration is obviously his goal.

Anyway, on the subject of the essence of things, how would you sum up the essence of Objectivism? What is it in a nutshell?

[BaalChatzaf]

Anyway, on the subject of the essence of things, how would you sum up the essence of Objectivism? What is it in a nutshell?

It is what happens when Nietzche and Aristotle get together for a one night stand.

An attempt to establish human beings as gods.

We are a smart species, but not that smart.

Ba'al Chatzaf

[BaalChatzaf]

delete duplicate

Edited February 9, 2011 by BaalChatzaf

[anthony]

Anyway, on the subject of the essence of things, how would you sum up the essence of Objectivism? What is it in a nutshell?

It is what happens when Nietzche and Aristotle get together for a one night stand.

An attempt to establish human beings as gods.

We are a smart species, but not that smart.

Ba'al Chatzaf

Ha!

Bob, when you're good, you're very, very, good.

However, for the 'gods' part, I think one has to imagine the entire god-premise null and void, then it comes home just how smart are our species, and supreme.

I sometimes believe we mess up so often because we don't know that; nothing like knowing you are alone, with no back-up, to focus your mind.

Tony

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

What I find bizarre, Michael, is that when Glenn Beck presents these things, you consider them to be "dealing with intellectual issues for real instead of silly oversimplifications." even though they are exactly the same things that Robert Spencer says, but when Mr Spencer, and others, say them, they become oversimplifications. There's a severe inconsistency there.

Richard,

I know you still find it bizarre. If you want the bizarreness to go away, instead of seeking hypocrisy in others, try listening to what else Glenn Beck says, not just the parts against the Muslim Brotherhood (and other radical Islamists) you agree with while imagining he is talking about the entire Islamic world.

For a great example, he believes in the methods of social change of Ghandi and Martin Luther King. I.e., non-violence and letting the world see when the bad guys strike you down.

Are you on board with that?

When presenting negative stuff--even about Islamism, he says, "I might be wrong and I hope I am." That's not just rhetorical. He literally does hope that the best will shine through in people. This sentiment comes from the heart. Somehow I don't see words like that coming from you. Not with the same intention as Beck's.

There's a lot more. And it applies to his observations on the Islamist problem, too. From the tenor of your posts, I imagine your appreciation of Beck is very selective and you certainly will not take his comments on Islamism within the context of his other facts and dot-connecting. On the contrary, as you are doing right now, you take them as proof that your prejudice is validated by him. I don't believe you see the other stuff from being blinded by prejudice, but I may be wrong. You may be prejudiced from conscious commitment to hatred.

Beck also believes that by standing in the blaze of the truth and letting facts fall where they may, regardless of prejudice, the false will burn itself away. This is because he believes people are essentially good. (Including Muslims.)

I'm not going to ask if you are on board with that because I have seen in your posts that you are committed to prejudice. You tend to belittle facts that do not support your prejudice and exaggerate those that support it.

Michael

[Richard Wiig]

I know you still find it bizarre. If you want the bizarreness to go away, instead of seeking hypocrisy in others, try listening to what else Glenn Beck says,

Said as if I never listen to what else Glenn Beck says. I've been listening to Glenn Beck for years, on all kinds of subjects. I do listen to lots of things that Glenn Beck says. You are constantly coming up with cannards and jumping to unwarranted conclusions. That's because you engage your biases rather than really taking your time to get to know. I don't think that is going to change.

[Richard Wiig]

This is because he believes people are essentially good. (Including Muslims.)

This interests me. Which is prejudiced, to believe that people are essentially good, or that people are essentially bad?

I'm not going to ask if you are on board with that because I have seen in your posts that you are committed to prejudice. You tend to belittle facts that do not support your prejudice and exaggerate those that support it.

I'd like you to lay your cards on the table please, Michael. What exactly is my prejudice? Strip it down and lay it bare so that it's made explicit. Secondly, provide an example of me belittling a fact while exaggerating another.

[bmacwilliam]

Michael,

Again, you cannot seem to separate the idea of analysing and criticizing a book/body of thought, and lumping together a billion people and hating them.

Hell, I've even worked for a former member of the Hitler Youth and I didn't hold that against him. You introduced the Nazi link, but you don't analyze it properly. You blame Nazism for the creation of Islamism when of course the more obvious and simple explanation is that the two ideologies [islam and Nazism] are similarly totalitarian and supremacist and are a natural fit with each other.

You think that it's only the extreme fringe of Islam (Islamism) that needs to be resisted, yet it was the ENTIRE Nazi ideology that had to be destroyed in order to overcome Nazism. Why the difference? You draw the connection, but fail to connect the two where it really counts - winning the war of ideology - what gives?

But there is a simple, empirical way to solve this issue. Select several destructive/reprehensible tenets of the ideology and answer the simple question - Are these fringe beliefs, or mainstream ideas? Then measure it.

If 5% believe it, then we can combat this as a fringe problem (as you advocate). However, if a huge proportion believe it, then we're in the Nazi situation where the system itself needs to be completely discredited because it has been adopted en masse.

Of course, the obvious fact that it is all a lie anyway seems to be completely ignored, but I digress...

Be logical, be rational, and be empirical and the answers will show themselves. Up to this point you have been none of the above.

Bob

Edited February 9, 2011 by Bob_Mac

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Did I strike a nerve?

I sure as hell hope so.

But I'm not going to waste a lot of time going over and over and over what I have already gone over with you guys. Ignore it if you will, mischaracterize it as you are doing, or disagree with it.

I'm losing interest. Repeating all that stuff is getting boring.

I stand by what I wrote for the reasons I gave.

Many, many readers agree with me, too. So I'm getting my message out.

What about you guys? Feelin' the love?

Michael

[Richard Wiig]

No, you haven't struck a nerve. You are irritating in your cannards and biases and your constant mischaracterisations, but you haven't struck a nerve. Here's an op-ed that has it right, and with zero bigotry. But of course, all you'll see is bigotry:

http://www.solopassion.com/node/8310

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Perigo?

You gotta be kidding me.

I don't read him all that much and I certainly will not waste time reading crap that long from him.

I don't know if that piece is bigoted, but I do know he's a hater qua hater. He thinks hate is a good way to live and has written reams preaching precisely that--which, unfortunately, I have read.

So I'm not interested in his work.

Michael

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Here's yesterday's show by Beck.

It deals with critical thinking. This is precisely what I argue against the "Islam is the source of all evil" crowd. The critical thinking approach.

They show prejudice seeking facts to sustain it. Critical thinkers question assumptions in order to uncover facts that get buried by prejudice..

<iframe title="YouTube video player" width="640" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/Ks-0rORujIs?rel=0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

If anyone thinks Beck's commitment to critical thinking is proof that Islam is evil in their oversimplified manner, let them listen to his own words.

Michael