Mikee

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Well, take the human organism--or any organism--and consider the natural complexity therein. It's all created, structured and ultimately controlled by its DNA, isn't it?

Actually, no. It's a much more involved process with feedback from a set of surrounding factors.

The inference is the complexity begets the complexity. There appears to be a huge gap between inanimate matter and that respecting an "ungulfable bridge." I speculate there might be in-between forms of matter that have some life characteristics enabling evolution to a single celled animal.

There are various speculations on the steps from amino acids to proteins to primitive semi-cells to prokaryote cells to eukaryote cells (prokaryote cells don't have a cellular nucleus). One theory even suggests that self-replicating bits of clay might have started the self-replicating going. I think it would be very funny if that were true, considering the frequent myths of humans being fashioned from clay by one or another being. (Prometheus is one of the beings said to be the fashioner of humans.)

That gap is what I'm really on about and I know of no explanation while Greg pretends to know. I don't know if he's deluded or a troll. He would say, of course, that he's neither.

Are you familiar with the saying "the God of the gaps"? DNA is the big hold-out gap, which is why the notion that it was designed is important to creationists.

My feeling about Greg is that he's just looking for a place to show off how rewarded he sees himself as having been for living morally.

Ellen

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Greg, There are people tearing their hair out, and I do believe you are enjoying yourself...

Tony, if there are people tearing their hair out, I'm not one of them. Instead, I'm enjoying myself, whatever Greg is doing.

I'm finding him a fun comedy routine. He's a rank amateur at Intelligent Design arguments, and thus like a take-off.

Also, and this is interesting me, there is a respect in which I'm reminded of Rand's making positive assertions in areas where she didn't have the backing to do so, and her attribution of motives to persons who disageed with her, and her tendency to set up contrasting opposition views. Only Rand had genius flare in her way of doing these things.

Ellen

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And yet...the person she called the most heroic woman (sic - she said "woman") in history, quite contradicting Rand's psychologizing diatribe re the soul of the mystic in Galt's Speech, was Joan of Ark, who heard voices and was supported in her stalwart courage by her belief in God.

Ellen,

Is that Noah's wife or stowaway or something from the Great Flood, or do you mean Joan of Arc?

:smile:

Michael

Te-he. I'll have to tell that one to Larry. He enjoys little word flips like that, and we'll probably get some further mileage out of it. I fixed it in the post.

Ellen

Joan of the Arctic?

--Brant

meets Frankenstein's monster

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And yet...the person she called the most heroic woman (sic - she said "woman") in history, quite contradicting Rand's psychologizing diatribe re the soul of the mystic in Galt's Speech, was Joan of Ark, who heard voices and was supported in her stalwart courage by her belief in God.

Ellen,

Is that Noah's wife or stowaway or something from the Great Flood, or do you mean Joan of Arc?

:smile:

Michael

Te-he. I'll have to tell that one to Larry. He enjoys little word flips like that, and we'll probably get some further mileage out of it. I fixed it in the post.

Ellen

Joan of the Arctic?

--Brant

meets Frankenstein's monster

Joan of Quark.

Didn't "matter"...

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Also, and this is interesting me, there is a respect in which I'm reminded of Rand's making positive assertions in areas where she didn't have the backing to do so, and her attribution of motives to persons who disageed with her, and her tendency to set up contrasting opposition views. Only Rand had genius flare in her way of doing these things.

Now that is exceptionally astute.

Very nice, Ellen.
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There are few attitudes more ugly than ingratitude. And yet you have the freedom to have chosen it, as well everything else that comes along with it.

Greg

Uh-oh ...bad move dude...

and upon further reflection, very un-Christian as I understand Christianity.

You don't understand Christianity.

Nowhere in it can be found the fallacy that ingratitude is beautiful.

Greg

Ah, see, I did not realize that your particular personal understanding of Christianity was the touchstone for approved thought.

Ok, Adam... you've made your view clear. You disagree that ingratitude is an ugly attitude. But even your disagreement doesn't change the fact that no one will ever find ingratitude equated with beauty anywhere in Christianity, when at its core is gratitude for our very existence.

Greg

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Ok, Adam... you've made your view clear. You disagree that ingratitude is an ugly attitude. But even your disagreement doesn't change the fact that no one will ever find ingratitude equated with beauty anywhere in Christianity, when at its core is gratitude for our very existence.

Greg

Apparently, I have not made my "view" clear.

I asked a question.

Apparently, that disrupted your thoughts.

Let me be clear. You do not speak for "Christianity" which I would believe you would agree to...?

I have a number of questions depending on your answer to this first one.

A...

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Well, take the human organism--or any organism--and consider the natural complexity therein. It's all created, structured and ultimately controlled by its DNA, isn't it? The inference is the complexity begets the complexity. There appears to be a huge gap between inanimate matter and that respecting an "ungulfable bridge." I speculate there might be in-between forms of matter that have some life characteristics enabling evolution to a single celled animal.

That gap is what I'm really on about and I know of no explanation while Greg pretends to know. I don't know if he's deluded or a troll. He would say, of course, that he's neither.

I know God exists so there isn't any problem with that inanimate/animate gap, or even with the amoral animal/morally accountable man gap either. A Creator who designed the physical and moral laws governing both is a perfectly rational logical explanation...

...and everyone is free to choose to replace it with any other explanation they wish.

Greg

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Ok, Adam... you've made your view clear. You disagree that ingratitude is an ugly attitude. But even your disagreement doesn't change the fact that no one will ever find ingratitude equated with beauty anywhere in Christianity, when at its core is gratitude for our very existence.

Greg

Apparently, I have not made my "view" clear.

Yes, you have, Adam.

I said that nowhere in Christianity can be found the fallacy that ingratitude is beautiful.

And you clearly disagreed with that statement.

You do not speak for "Christianity" which I would believe you would agree to...?

Please rephrase your question, and I'll respond.

Greg

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My feeling about Greg is that he's just looking for a place to show off how rewarded he sees himself as having been for living morally.

Ellen

While I know by direct personal experience that I'm getting the just and deserved consequences of my own actions, that principle is utterly impersonal and not limited to me alone. For I also recognize, by that very same principle, you are also getting the just and deserved consequences of your own actions... and so is everyone else.

Everyone is playing by exactly the same ground rules.

Greg

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I see them more as screw ups, how hard is it to plan a riverbed with a consistent elevation?

Nothing keeps you from your chosen view.Some people see beauty while others see ugliness.Greg
But what of the view that the screw ups are themselves beautiful? A waterfall could be seen as a benevolent sign, a physical metaphor for contemplation.
How can it be a screw up if it possesses a benevolent purpose of making people more thoughtful and self reflective?

Life's flow like that of the river can at times be orderly and pacific, following a predictable deserved path and also be subject to tumultuous breaks. Stay the course and eventually the flow will resume its path.

Those tumultuous breaks are wake up calls to change course. :wink:Greg
Can't gotta lie in the bed already made.
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I know God exists...

...and everyone is free to choose to replace it with any other explanation they wish.

Greg

OK, then - here (was) my version:

"In The Beginning was The Void (volitional.omniscient.intelligent.designer).

The Void looked upon what there was, and there was Nothing - but Himself. [in fact, kinda boring].

He, to Himself:

"I'll make Something."

And The Void created the Elements, and He packed them tight together. He conceived 'Time', and infinite 'Space'. He knew that with unlimited time and endless space, Existents and Entities would emerge in every possible combination and permutation of the Elements. He knew that Consciousness as emergent property would slowly arrive in corners of His Creation, and that the highest manifestation of it would be 'The Ones' - who would possess the faculty to envisage Him.

He knew that in all their innocently unknowing ways, there would be many fallacies regarding The Void - of His OmniPresence in their Existence; and of Mysticism, Supernaturalism and Spirituality- and In advance He forgave the Ones: for wrongly presuming that he demanded their worship of Him; for assuming upon The Primacy of Consciousness; and for inventing the Idea of His 'Commands and Judgment' on their Lives.

He knew that with Reason and Volition, the Ones would find their own Way. [They'll be alright].

And that Worlds would come, and Worlds would go.

He smiled upon His Concept of the forthcoming Creation.

He, to Himself: "It will be Good."

(And in a flash, The Void exploded His Elements and blasted them and Himself to Kingdom Come.)

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I know God exists...

...and everyone is free to choose to replace it with any other explanation they wish.

Greg

OK, then - here (was) my version:

"In The Beginning was The Void (volitional.omniscient.intelligent.designer).

The Void looked upon what there was, and there was Nothing - but Himself. [in fact, kinda boring].

He, to Himself:

"I'll make Something."

And The Void created the Elements, and He packed them tight together. He conceived 'Time', and infinite 'Space'. He knew that with unlimited time and endless space, Existents and Entities would emerge in every possible combination and permutation of the Elements. He knew that Consciousness as emergent property would slowly arrive in corners of His Creation, and that the highest manifestation of it would be 'The Ones' - who would possess the faculty to envisage Him.

He knew that in all their innocently unknowing ways, there would be many fallacies regarding The Void - of His OmniPresence in their Existence; and of Mysticism, Supernaturalism and Spirituality- and In advance He forgave the Ones: for wrongly presuming that he demanded their worship of Him; for assuming upon The Primacy of Consciousness; and for inventing the Idea of His 'Commands and Judgment' on their Lives.

He knew that with Reason and Volition, the Ones would find their own Way. [They'll be alright].

And that Worlds would come, and Worlds would go.

He smiled upon the Concept of his forthcoming Creation.

He, to Himself: "It will be Good."

(And in a flash, The Void exploded His Elements and blasted them and Himself to Kingdom Come.)

That's a good one, Tony.

We're all headed for Kingdom Come... one way or the other. :wink:

Greg

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That's a good one, Tony.

We're all headed for Kingdom Come... one way or the other. :wink:

Greg

Stop the tumbrel; I want to get off!

--Brant

"Some go laughing and singing...

...while others go kicking and screaming."

--Greg :wink:

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"Some go laughing and singing...

...while others go kicking and screaming."

--Greg :wink:

"'Distrust all in whom the impulse to punish is powerful" -- Nietzsche

"We are the only ones who punish ourselves."

--Greg

You sure have a bromide for every occasion, don't you?

So let me get this clear: does God ever punish anybody? Or are "we ...the only ones who punish ourselves."?

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"Some go laughing and singing...

...while others go kicking and screaming."

--Greg :wink:

"'Distrust all in whom the impulse to punish is powerful" -- Nietzsche

"We are the only ones who punish ourselves."

--Greg

You sure have a bromide for every occasion, don't you?

Yup.

They call me Pepto Bromide. :wink:

So let me get this clear: does God ever punish anybody?

Nope.

People angrily blame (unjustly accuse) God for the consequences of their own actions. And when the anger of their false accusations becomes too painful, they deny His existence.

Or are "we ...the only ones who punish ourselves."?

It's all just us screwing over ourselves. All God does is give us the rope of free choice. We are the only ones who hang ourselves with it.

Greg

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Yup.

They call me Pepto Bromide. :wink:

So let me get this clear: does God ever punish anybody?

Nope.

People angrily blame (unjustly accuse) God for the consequences of their own actions. And when the anger of their false accusations becomes too painful, they deny His existence.

Or are "we ...the only ones who punish ourselves."?

It's all just us screwing over ourselves. All God does is give us the rope of free choice. We are the only ones who hang ourselves with it.

Greg

Somehow I knew that response was coming.

Why do there have to be any hangings?

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