Frank's Niece!

[Peter]

Sometimes I think we're alone. Sometimes I think we're not. In either case, the thought is staggering. -- R. Buckminster Fuller

Ellen wrote:

Yikes, Peter, do you have to be such a friggin' space hog with all the old stuff from Atlantis?

end quote

I wanted to show evidence for two theories. One theory is that Ellen Moore knew what she was talking about, hence the length. The thread went on with some other posts from Ghs, REB and other notables which I deleted. I will take your idea under advisement to start a separate thread. Largesse does cause excessive scrolling. I was truly thinking of Cathy as a recipient of my reposting from Atlantis.

You have also helped answer the second question. Did Ellen Moore teach at NBI? You wrote, that Ellen Moore was the, “Winnipeg NBI business representative for a number of years,” and knowing Ms Moore she could have taught some courses of which you are not aware. She may have passed on her wisdom to all those who were worthy of her time as she did when she lectured Allan and Joan Blumenthal about art during her visit. So, we know she corrected those who thought incorrectly in her estimation. I imagined that she was much more congenial in person. Her online personae always reminded me of Ayn Rand’s temperament.

Thank you for answering, Ellen.

Peter

[Peter]

Adam wrote:

Who needs the NSA when we have Peter!

end squawk

Adam, I have carefully considered the “righteousness” of saving and RE-presenting past letters. I have discussed it with site managers (even the notorious Wikipedia Honcho, Jimbo Wales) who all send “bring in on!” My “end squawk” after your quote is meant humorously, because you are entitled to your suspicion. Nonetheless, the phone taps will remain on your cell and on your relatives’ land lines.

I have been guilty of using some of those letters as digs and revenge. And I felt some glee while poking those egos in their ribs. I have snooped into your background simply because I can, so nyah! This attempt to cause a shiver to travel up your spine is also meant as a humorous response to calling me an NSA type. Your past sins are forgiven, my son. Please continue to live an exemplary life.

I have found old letters in my archives at the request of the letter writers, dozens of times. Over the years I have successfully responded about six times when someone’s computer crashed.

I will consider any criticism or solution to “big posts,” and past letters that expose hypocrisy or wrong thinking. I just don’t think it is wrong, because “the truth is out there.”

Peter

[Peter]

Adam’s critique of my snoopiness got me to thinking about what this thread means to each of us. Cathy is reminiscing and cataloging a part of her life, but it may also mean more to her philosophically.

Rand always insisted her philosophy was a cohesive whole but should we consider her earliest writings, or her marginalia as part of her philosophy or just her words written and spoken after she declared she was always speaking about her philosophy? Everything she ever said or what Cathy tells us about her Aunt Alice is of interest, but I consider her “cohesive philosophy” as what she wrote after she wrote “Atlas Shrugged,” and if Ayn meant it to be about her philosophy. Ayn saying, “Frank, did you pick up The Times?” does not count as Objectivism. Aunt Alice asking Cathy, “What is the most important thing in your life?” might be considered philosophy, if we know Ayn Rand’s response to Cathy.

As an aside I found some of Jimmy Wales’, the founder of Wikipedia, letters which I will post on a separate thread and I picked and chose from another thread that shows a fascinating exchange about Anarchy and Government between Jimbo and the brilliant George H. Smith.

Peter

[Ellen Stuttle]

Adam wrote:

Who needs the NSA when we have Peter!

end squawk

Adam, I have carefully considered the righteousness of saving and RE-presenting past letters.

The material you're posting isn't actually "letters." It's posts from an old list which could be subscribed to by anyone when it was active, and the entire archives of which were made available for downloading for several months before they were deleted from the host server.

I think that Peter is performing an historical-record service in making some of this material available. I'd do the same myself if I had time to do it. (I have most of the Old Atlantis posts stored on an old computer.)

My objection isn't against posting the material. It's just against posting hugely long block posts on threads where most of the material is extraneous to the discussion.

What I suggest is to make separate archive threads for the block posts, and then to provide links on other threads - like the thread Peter started today with material from Jimbo and others - see.

Ellen

[Cathy]

Sometimes I sit and wonder what Aunt Alice would say to me today. Would she apologize, or make excuses? I think she would try and logicalize it and say, what happens in our early years prepares us for adult years. Your not in prison, you have a job, and your a reposible adult. I think she would say something along those lines. But does that still make it alright? I think my aunt Agnes and Uncle Frank would apologize. I think my dad would to. My life's philosophy would be, I was dealt a bad hand from birth, but I also think of what I have learned from it. I have learned to be independent and in control of my life. On my death bed, I may have some regrets, but one saying I've always kept in the back of my head was from Maya Angulo, when you know better, you do better...and I have.

[Ellen Stuttle]

Re the "up with which I will not put" quip:

The attribution to Churchill is apparently a misattribution:

http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/001715.html

The quip has been quoted in a number of forms, and with a variety of supposed contexts:

http://public.wsu.edu/~brians/errors/churchill.html

The saying attributed to Winston Churchill rejecting the rule against ending a sentence with a preposition must be among the most frequently mutated witticisms ever. I have received many notes from correspondents claiming to know what the original saying was, but none of them cites an authoritative source.

The alt.english.usage FAQ states that the story originated with an anecdote in Sir Ernest Gowers Plain Words (1948). Supposedly an editor had clumsily rearranged one of Churchills sentences to avoid ending it in a preposition, and the Prime Minister, very proud of his style, scribbled this note in reply: This is the sort of English up with which I will not put. The American Heritage Book of English Usage agrees.

The FAQ goes on to say that the Oxford Companion to the English Language (no edition cited) states that the original was This is the sort of bloody nonsense up with which I will not put. To me this sounds more likely, and eagerness to avoid the offensive word bloody would help to explain the proliferation of variations.

A quick search of the Internet turned up an astonishing number. In this era of copy-and-paste its truly unusual to find such rich variety. The narrative context varies too: sometimes the person rebuked by Churchill is a correspondent, a speech editor, a bureaucrat, or an audience member at a speech and sometimes it is a man, sometimes a woman, and sometimes even a young student. Sometimes Churchill writes a note, sometimes he scribbles the note on the corrected manuscript, and often he is said to have spoken the rebuke aloud. The text concerned was variously a book manuscript, a speech, an article, or a government document.

Here is just a sample of the variations circulating on the Net:

1. That is a rule up with which I will not put.

2. This is the kind of arrant pedantry up with which I will not put.

3. This is the type of arrant pedantry up with which I will not put.

4. Not ending a sentence with a preposition is a bit of arrant pedantry up with which I will not put.

5. That is the sort of nonsense up with which I will not put

6. This is insubordination, up with which I will not put!

7. This is the sort of nonsense up with which I will not put.

8. This is the sort of thing up with which I will not put.

9. Madame, that is a rule up with which I shall not put.

Ellen

PS: The alt.english.usage FAQ link provided in the article from which I quoted just goes to an archives page.

Here's the link for anyone interested:

http://www.faqs.org/faqs/alt-usage-english-faq/

[Ellen Stuttle]

Sometimes I sit and wonder what Aunt Alice would say to me today. Would she apologize, or make excuses?

Cathy,

I'm really not sure what it is you think your Aunt Alice should apologize or make excuses for. Likewise your Aunt Agnes and your Uncle Frank. Could you specify what you think they should have done?

Ellen

[Peter]

Brainy Quotes lists this too:

Ending a sentence with a preposition is something up with which I will not put.

Winston Churchill

I wish there were some home movies of when Cathy's Aunt Alice and Uncle Frank arrived to visit. If hers is like my family the blood relative would be cherished and Aunt Alice would be . . . not so much. My Uncle Pete's wife Bertie was a gem though. My Uncle Walter's wife and her father taught me a lot . . . about the West Coast Irish, er, anarchic organization. Both Aunts are alive and well but my Uncles have died.

Peter

[Cathy]

Ellen I think what they should have done is not forget about us. I will always remember that! Cathy

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Cathy,

I have seen brain scan results somewhere (I could probably find it if I look again) that the areas of the brain that light up with rejection are identical to the ones that light up with physical pain. (Light up means shows more brain activity in fMRI scans inferred from increased blood flow. The magnetic image on the screen gets lighter in areas where the blood flow increases.)

You are right to feel resentment.

There are circumstances and there are circumstances, but when I try to see it from your eyes starting as a child, I can't slice it and dice it as anything but rejection.

Michael

[Cathy]

Thank you Michael that is the way I see it! Cathy

[Ellen Stuttle]

Ellen I think what they should have done is not forget about us. I will always remember that! Cathy

But how could you know that they did forget about you? Apparently they couldn't have found you from what you've said. Except somehow your father managed to send your sister a photo when he was near death. And neither of you tried to contact them, although you could have found their whereabouts, so maybe they thought that you wanted nothing to do with your family.

Frank's a special case. He's said to have become forgetful about such day-to-day details as whether he'd eaten and whether he'd fed the cats, and to have gotten so that he didn't recognize people he'd known for years. So he easily might have forgotten your existence due to his mental infirmity. And your Aunt Alice might not have given you a thought. But considering the things you've said about your Aunt Agnes, I'd find it hard to believe that she didn't worry about you and wish she knew how life was going for you.

Ellen

[Selene]

My objection isn't against posting the material. It's just against posting hugely long block posts on threads where most of the material is extraneous to the discussion.

What I suggest is to make separate archive threads for the block posts, and then to provide links on other threads - like the thread Peter started today with material from Jimbo and others - see.

Exactly Ellen. Well put.

[Cathy]

Ellen you maybe right. I am going to call today to

see how I can get children services records open, I want to see for myself if any family members contacted them. We didn't try to find them is because we thought they were all dead since we didn't hear from them. But then I find out they weren't. Sometimes it's just a lot to take in. Cathy

[Cathy]

P.s. Marna did say aunt Agnes often wondered what happen to us.

:

[Cathy]

Happy 4th of July everybody!

[Cathy]

Ms. Shoshana Knapp sent me my cousin Ellen's Memoir about Her mother, my dad and the rest of the O'Connor children's growing up in Lorain Ohio. I wish there was a way of putting it on here. With what she wrote about and what I grew up with, it has become crystal clear to me why my father did the things he did. I believe my father had the best of intentions for me and my sister. I didn't know that my grandmother"s mother had died when she was young, same with my father's mother, and me and my sister. Three generations of children orphaned by their mothers. The memoir stated that one Christmas my dad wanted a watch very badly. His step mother got an old broken watch and put it in a new watch box and had my father open it Christmas day. His step mother thought it was funny. I remember one Christmas my dad had identical wrapped boxes to give to me and my sister, when we open it, they were new Timex watches. Now I realize why my dad looked so excited and happy when he handed us those wrapped boxes. We had those watches until we left at thirteen and we never saw them again...I am sure my step mother got rid of them. Our birthdays are on Valentines Day and our dad got us heart necklaces with our name's inscribe in them, we never seen those again either...how I wish I still had them. History has away of repeating itself I have come to learn. His mother dying when he was young, mine also, him having an evil step mother, I did to, him being put in an orphanage, I was to. I am happy to say that my children did not have to live through this "family curse" and hopefully only good things will come from now on. Since reading the memoir, I have regained more memories and understandings...and cried more than I have ever cried in my life. The O'Connor's were good people, with caring hearts and warm and endearing personalities. I know why Aunt Alice stayed married to Uncle Frank for more than fifty years...she was a genius after all. ~Cathy~

[caroljane]

Ms. Shoshana Knapp sent me my cousin Ellen's Memoir about Her mother, my dad and the rest of the O'Connor children's growing up in Lorain Ohio. I wish there was a way of putting it on here. With what she wrote about and what I grew up with, it has become crystal clear to me why my father did the things he did. I believe my father had the best of intentions for me and my sister. I didn't know that my grandmother"s mother had died when she was young, same with my father's mother, and me and my sister. Three generations of children orphaned by their mothers. The memoir stated that one Christmas my dad wanted a watch very badly. His step mother got an old broken watch and put it in a new watch box and had my father open it Christmas day. His step mother thought it was funny. I remember one Christmas my dad had identical wrapped boxes to give to me and my sister, when we open it, they were new Timex watches. Now I realize why my dad looked so excited and happy when he handed us those wrapped boxes. We had those watches until we left at thirteen and we never saw them again...I am sure my step mother got rid of them. Our birthdays are on Valentines Day and our dad got us heart necklaces with our name's inscribe in them, we never seen those again either...how I wish I still had them. History has away of repeating itself I have come to learn. His mother dying when he was young, mine also, him having an evil step mother, I did to, him being put in an orphanage, I was to. I am happy to say that my children did not have to live through this "family curse" and hopefully only good things will come from now on. Since reading the memoir, I have regained more memories and understandings...and cried more than I have ever cried in my life. The O'Connor's were good people, with caring hearts and warm and endearing personalities. I know why Aunt Alice stayed married to Uncle Frank for more than fifty years...she was a genius after all. ~Cathy~

Cathy, this is so stunning. I too had step-grandmother, sick mother, and family patterns which only became when I was married myself. Obviously my experiences were very different from yours. Yet I wonder, when you married, did you just feel the guy was "right" because underneath you recognized a warmth like you felt from the O'Connors?

[caroljane]

Ms. Shoshana Knapp sent me my cousin Ellen's Memoir about Her mother, my dad and the rest of the O'Connor children's growing up in Lorain Ohio. I wish there was a way of putting it on here. With what she wrote about and what I grew up with, it has become crystal clear to me why my father did the things he did. I believe my father had the best of intentions for me and my sister. I didn't know that my grandmother"s mother had died when she was young, same with my father's mother, and me and my sister. Three generations of children orphaned by their mothers. The memoir stated that one Christmas my dad wanted a watch very badly. His step mother got an old broken watch and put it in a new watch box and had my father open it Christmas day. His step mother thought it was funny. I remember one Christmas my dad had identical wrapped boxes to give to me and my sister, when we open it, they were new Timex watches. Now I realize why my dad looked so excited and happy when he handed us those wrapped boxes. We had those watches until we left at thirteen and we never saw them again...I am sure my step mother got rid of them. Our birthdays are on Valentines Day and our dad got us heart necklaces with our name's inscribe in them, we never seen those again either...how I wish I still had them. History has away of repeating itself I have come to learn. His mother dying when he was young, mine also, him having an evil step mother, I did to, him being put in an orphanage, I was to. I am happy to say that my children did not have to live through this "family curse" and hopefully only good things will come from now on. Since reading the memoir, I have regained more memories and understandings...and cried more than I have ever cried in my life. The O'Connor's were good people, with caring hearts and warm and endearing personalities. I know why Aunt Alice stayed married to Uncle Frank for more than fifty years...she was a genius after all. ~Cathy~

Cathy, this is so stunning. I too had step-grandmother, sick mother, and family patterns which only occurred to me long after I was married myself. Obviously my experiences were very different from yours. Yet I wonder, when you married, did you just feel the guy was "right" because underneath you recognized a warmth like you felt from the O'Connors?

[Cathy]

Ms. Shoshana Knapp sent me my cousin Ellen's Memoir about Her mother, my dad and the rest of the O'Connor children's growing up in Lorain Ohio. I wish there was a way of putting it on here. With what she wrote about and what I grew up with, it has become crystal clear to me why my father did the things he did. I believe my father had the best of intentions for me and my sister. I didn't know that my grandmother"s mother had died when she was young, same with my father's mother, and me and my sister. Three generations of children orphaned by their mothers. The memoir stated that one Christmas my dad wanted a watch very badly. His step mother got an old broken watch and put it in a new watch box and had my father open it Christmas day. His step mother thought it was funny. I remember one Christmas my dad had identical wrapped boxes to give to me and my sister, when we open it, they were new Timex watches. Now I realize why my dad looked so excited and happy when he handed us those wrapped boxes. We had those watches until we left at thirteen and we never saw them again...I am sure my step mother got rid of them. Our birthdays are on Valentines Day and our dad got us heart necklaces with our name's inscribe in them, we never seen those again either...how I wish I still had them. History has away of repeating itself I have come to learn. His mother dying when he was young, mine also, him having an evil step mother, I did to, him being put in an orphanage, I was to. I am happy to say that my children did not have to live through this "family curse" and hopefully only good things will come from now on. Since reading the memoir, I have regained more memories and understandings...and cried more than I have ever cried in my life. The O'Connor's were good people, with caring hearts and warm and endearing personalities. I know why Aunt Alice stayed married to Uncle Frank for more than fifty years...she was a genius after all. ~Cathy~

Cathy, this is so stunning. I too had step-grandmother, sick mother, and family patterns which only became when I was married myself. Obviously my experiences were very different from yours. Yet I wonder, when you married, did you just feel the guy was "right" because underneath you recognized a warmth like you felt from the O'Connors?

Daunce, No, to this day, I have never found anyone as warm hearted, caring, patient, loyal, honest, kind and gentle as the O'Connor's and I am positive I never will. They were one of a kind...truly. ~Cathy~ I miss them more than I can say

[Ellen Stuttle]

Ms. Shoshana Knapp sent me my cousin Ellen's Memoir about Her mother, my dad and the rest of the O'Connor children's growing up in Lorain Ohio.

How recently was this memoir written? I'm wondering if your cousin Ellen is still alive.

Ellen

[Cathy]

Ms. Shoshana Knapp sent me my cousin Ellen's Memoir about Her mother, my dad and the rest of the O'Connor children's growing up in Lorain Ohio.

How recently was this memoir written? I'm wondering if your cousin Ellen is still alive.

Ellen

Ellen, Ellen, has passed away, the only one living is Denny her brother. I don't know when the memoir was written, but I will try and find out. ~Cathy~

[Cathy]

Can someone help me? I started to write my own memoir just for my family. I am not a writer as you all know. What exactly is a memoir and do I have to put everything in it? I don't want it out like Ellen's where everyone can read it, but I want to combine and continue where Ellen left off, just for my kids and grand kids. Jim Smith from Ohio did an article on my family growing up in Lorain, I am meeting him at the end of the month. He is taking me to my grandparents graves, where they went to school, their house...and hopefully I will see the orphanage they were left at. I am going to take pictures and I want to put it in the memoir. Jim is the one who suggested I write one. I need some smart people to tell me how to do it, what to put in it, and how to construct it....I don't want one day one for my great great grandchildren reading it to think their family came from a line idiots, if I don't do it right Thx ~Cathy~

[caroljane]

Can someone help me? I started to write my own memoir just for my family. I am not a writer as you all know. What exactly is a memoir and do I have to put everything in it? I don't want it out like Ellen's where everyone can read it, but I want to combine and continue where Ellen left off, just for my kids and grand kids. Jim Smith from Ohio did an article on my family growing up in Lorain, I am meeting him at the end of the month. He is taking me to my grandparents graves, where they went to school, their house...and hopefully I will see the orphanage they were left at. I am going to take pictures and I want to put it in the memoir. Jim is the one who suggested I write one. I need some smart people to tell me how to do it, what to put in it, and how to construct it....I don't want one day one for my great great grandchildren reading it to think their family came from a line idiots, if I don't do it right Thx ~Cathy~

Cathy, you don't need any help until after you have written down your impressions when you meet Jim and start your "sentimental journey", just in the way you write your posts here. He may be all the help you need as he has already written stuff.

[caroljane]

Remember? At first Michael thought you had taken creative writing courses. That shows that you have the natural gift for telling your story.