Madame Bovary

[BAMF]

Dragonfly,

Where'd you get that information, uh? Born with innate knowledge, were we?

*sits back with a tall glass o' Kool-Aid*

[Dragonfly]

Where'd you get that information, uh? Born with innate knowledge, were we?

From Souvenirs littéraires by Maxime du Camp.

[BAMF]

Why not credit that source initially? :getlost:

[Victor Pross]

Where'd you get that information, uh? Born with innate knowledge, were we?

From Souvenirs littéraires by Maxime du Camp.

[Chris Grieb]

Victor: Well said!

[Dragonfly]

The plagiarist is back again.

[BAMF]

Victor, I've seen that winky face somewhere before! What's its source, hmmm?!

Ah, I found it!

;)

You bastard!

Edited April 27, 2007 by Kori

[Victor Pross]

Damn, Tootsie! You are making retiring from message boards very difficult! You crack me up! Hey, where did I see that laughing icon? Wait---here it is! BITCH! Hee-hee.

Hey, take note that Dragonfly’s “retort” isn’t very original at all. Ouch, it cut me to the bone---NOT. [winky face again]. Okay, back to my painting!

[Dragonfly]

Hey, take note that Dragonfly’s “retort” isn’t very original at all.

You aren't very original either, that's your problem.

[Victor Pross]

Hey, take note that Dragonfly’s “retort” isn’t very original at all.

You aren't very original either, that's your problem.

ouch!

[Brant Gaede]

Victor, I guess the "retort" didn't hurt you because you really don't care. I'm not complaining; it's just something I don't understand. It's totally outside any experience I've ever had of myself. You went away and now you are back, presumably to keep rowing the same boat in now calmer waters.

--Brant

[James Heaps-Nelson]

This is an interesting thread in a number of ways. It points up how I differ with others on the subject of integrity. Integrity is deeply important, but it is also context dependent. As an Objectivist in college, there were two people that I knew reasonably well that were expelled for honor offenses. One for repeated plagiary and the other for faking his work-study hours.

The second recovered, enrolled in another school and is now a relatively successful accident reconstruction engineer. The first I have lost track of. Although I was deeply disappointed and voiced those opinions, I thought each was a relatively good person remained friends and wished them well. Many people are highly compartmentalized and my observation is that moral and personal failures are a common problem. The bottom line is: each person owns their own integrity and all of the moral hysteria in the world won't make them change.

So how to handle it? Victor has not put himself up as an expert or tried to profit from his plagiary or had others relying on the originality of his posts, so the damage is relatively minor. Each board owner sets their own ground rules and Victor deals with the consequences.

In the real world, integrity and judgment of it have concrete consequences. It reminds of a line from a Clint Eastwood movie after the outlaws have been routed and the town is in a shambles. One of the townsmen approaches the Eastwood character asks: "What now?" and the Eastwood character replies "You live with it."

Jim

[BAMF]

Damn, Tootsie! You are making retiring from message boards very difficult! You crack me up! Hey, where did I see that laughing icon? Wait---here it is! BITCH! Hee-hee.

Hey, take note that Dragonfly’s “retort” isn’t very original at all. Ouch, it cut me to the bone---NOT. [winky face again]. Okay, back to my painting!

Good, you better come back (and make some comebacks)! *brainwashes* You see that laughing icon in all my posts, biotch! I done plagiarized my own damn self. Shiz. :logik:

Brant, he's not coming out of retirement. I'm jus' tryna lure him out.

[Brant Gaede]

This is an interesting thread in a number of ways. It points up how I differ with others on the subject of integrity. Integrity is deeply important, but it is also context dependent. As an Objectivist in college, there were two people that I knew reasonably well that were expelled for honor offenses. One for repeated plagiary and the other for faking his work-study hours.

The second recovered, enrolled in another school and is now a relatively successful accident reconstruction engineer. The first I have lost track of. Although I was deeply disappointed and voiced those opinions, I thought each was a relatively good person remained friends and wished them well. Many people are highly compartmentalized and my observation is that moral and personal failures are a common problem. The bottom line is: each person owns their own integrity and all of the moral hysteria in the world won't make them change.

So how to handle it? Victor has not put himself up as an expert or tried to profit from his plagiary or had others relying on the originality of his posts, so the damage is relatively minor. Each board owner sets their own ground rules and Victor deals with the consequences.

In the real world, integrity and judgment of it have concrete consequences. It reminds of a line from a Clint Eastwood movie after the outlaws have been routed and the town is in a shambles. One of the townsmen approaches the Eastwood character asks: "What now?" and the Eastwood character replies "You live with it."

Jim

I wish Victor well, and I'm happy if he posts here. It's obvious he has a big blind spot. I probably do too. It can be hard to see some things, good and bad, in oneself. The damage is relatively minor insofar as what he did isn't sanctioned. It wasn't.

--Brant

[John Dailey]

Vic:

~ I'm not sure which I'm sorry to read: this thread's complaints, or, your not-very-adequate defense of your repetition of which the complaints are about.

~ I would'a thought you'd'a learned.

~ Don't switch your artistry to writing.

LLAP

J:D

[Victor Pross]

Vic:

~ I'm not sure which I'm sorry to read: this thread's complaints, or, your not-very-adequate defense of your repetition of which the complaints are about.

~ I would'a thought you'd'a learned.

~ Don't switch your artistry to writing.

LLAP

J:D

John,

I received various Private Messages from posters supporting me and taking issue—not with me—but with what has been called “moral hysteria.” Briefly, let me indicate my attitude about message boards: They are a social outlet, an email party, a written chat-room—not a forum of professional writers seeking profits or exam grades. I do not regard flippant posts—or discussion starts—as a serious breach of ethics. Sorry, I really don’t—but I do find the sheer malice of seeking out “public disgraces” very appalling, especially when it is masquerading as “justice.” Really, I suppose I have a "bad attitude" because--finally--I think it is a freakin' joke.

Having said this, however, message forums can be wonderful for inspired writers. Of course they can! And any where you find an “article” at OL that specifically says “by Victor Pross” or else an inclusion from my forthcoming book “Icons and Idols” in the “Victor Pross” section...well, it is all ME. ;] It can only come from me; it has "Victor" all over it---if one knows my visual art. For example, if you read my "Portrait of the Artist as a Young Punk: A ribald rebel with a cause"—you would know that THIS attitude could only come from a most peculiar caricature artist that I freely admit to being. John, John, John, my friend, don’t get caught up in all the sanctimonious frenzy. This is a glorified chat-room with an intellectual bent. But at the end of the day: it is a social outing. Don’t take it soooo seriously. Nobody is collecting royalties here. You see, unlike others, I do not regard EVERY chat-like post to be in the ranks of the world’s greatest writers, as if every word were ordained by the ghost of Eager Allen Poe. What a joke. Now, John, of course, when it comes to publishing a book, this is where integrity counts. I don’t give a rat’s ass about chat-rooms ---other than being a social distraction. And you know what? That's what this is.

-Victor

Edited May 1, 2007 by Victor Pross

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Now, John, of course, when it comes to publishing a book, this is where integrity counts. I don’t give a rat’s ass about chat-rooms ---other than being a social distraction. And you know what? That's what this is.

Victor,

I happen to own this "chat room" and "social distraction" and I do give a rat's ass about integrity. Plagiary is a matter of kind, not degree. Plagiary is wrong. Period. OL cannot condone plagiary.

Please, just leave it alone and do not try to justify the unjustifiable. Enough.

Michael

[william.scherk]

John,

I received various Private Messages from posters supporting me and taking issue—not with me—but with what has been called “moral hysteria.” Briefly, let me indicate my attitude about message boards: They are a social outlet, an email party, a written chat-room—not a forum of professional writers seeking profits or exam grades. I do not regard flippant posts—or discussion starts—as a serious breach of ethics. Sorry, I really don’t—but I do find the sheer malice of seeking out “public disgraces” very appalling, especially when it is masquerading as “justice.” Really, I suppose I have a "bad attitude" because--finally--I think it is a freakin' joke.

Having said this, however, message forums can be wonderful for inspired writers. Of course they can! And any where you find an “article” at OL that specifically says “by Victor Pross” or else an inclusion from my forthcoming book “Icons and Idols” in the “Victor Pross” section...well, it is all ME. ;] It can only come from me; it has "Victor" all over it---if one knows my visual art. For example, if you read my "Portrait of the Artist as a Young Punk: A ribald rebel with a cause"—you would know that THIS attitude could only come from a most peculiar caricature artist that I freely admit to being. John, John, John, my friend, don’t get caught up in all the sanctimonious frenzy. This is a glorified chat-room with an intellectual bent. But at the end of the day: it is a social outing. Don’t take it soooo seriously. Nobody is collecting royalties here. You see, unlike others, I do not regard EVERY chat-like post to be in the ranks of the world’s greatest writers, as if every word were ordained by the ghost of Eager Allen Poe. What a joke. Now, John, of course, when it comes to publishing a book, this is where integrity counts. I don’t give a rat’s ass about chat-rooms ---other than being a social distraction. And you know what? That's what this is.

-Victor

Victor,

Sad and sorry to see you go, if go you must, especially as the romance of the ages was about to take flight . . .

Sorry to have snarked at you on two separate occasions . . . neither occasion led to a good chat. You are probably the kind of fellow I would gladly sit and badger with on a sunny Queen Street afternoon, over a lunch and a bottle of fine Ontario wine.

I may be starkly wrong in my psychological observations, but this is what I sense: you seem to mix a sunny disposition with a sadness and sense of having been thwarted. You do indeed need to step away from those who are not interested in building you up and 'accentuating the positive.' At the present time, you are in no shape to properly respond to critiques meant meanly or kindly.

Sad to see you take leave with such a summary as your rant above. A couple of points to bear in mind, brother Victor, granting me the wisdom of my many years and the objectivity of my observations:

-- no one is an 'inspired writer' if the inspiration is uncredited and comes from another pen. A change of venue does not obviate the need for courtesy in letters . . . great careers have been destroyed and reputations sullied forever by sloppiness . . . one's integrity is of value insofar as it is public and acknowledged. A sad fact of life, but how humans conduct their social business.

-- you have burned people with the torch of your vituperation whom you had better made allies and compatriots.

I am sorry to seen the farewells couched in insult and vituperation, but sorrier still to see that my brand of insult may not be required . . .

FIN

. . . and now you go back on ignore. Don't slam the door on your prideful shanks on the way out. Thank you.

Edited May 2, 2007 by william.scherk

[Victor Pross]

Will,

Go I must: In the sense that I am getting over my “addiction” to message boards and the over abundances of posts. It is now a matter of priority and lack of desire.

I have received many heart felt Private Messages from people asking me to please not totally disappear all together. I was taken aback by this. I don’t know if this is a small nebulous fan base or friends speaking out to me—or both. I say this because I have received messages from people with whom I have never interacted with on-line, but who have nevertheless taken a liking to me! :aww:

But, as I have made clear, I need to return to my project: Icons and Idols. Aside from offering the occasional sampling from the book for constructive feed-back, (and interacting with the ever enjoyable Kori) I need to focus my energies elsewhere. Life beyond the message board so to speak.

Now, let me address your speculations into my personality: Instead of hypothesizing into what must be going on in my psyche, you might simply take heed in what I am directly saying: for example, I don’t regard, as I said, messages-chat-rooms (whatever) with any great seriousness—however much fun I have derived from them. They are, as I said, a social outlet. Nothing less and nothing more. (This is not a bad thing in and of itself, but that's how I see it).

There are pluses and minuses that go along with them. A few of the pluses: you come across interesting people and enjoy interesting conversations. Friendships and romances can be formed. I have experienced both. A few of the minuses: you come across people you don’t like and you run into conversations that leave you exasperated and angry. I have experienced that as well. (We all have).

But there is an even darker side: messages boards bring out a side of people that is rather unpleasant—and here I speak from observation and experiences. We say things to people we wouldn’t dare say directly to their face. Not only because of some kind of “social conditioning” or because we fear having our teeth knocked out, (that being very likely) but simply because we wouldn’t care to engage in any kind of “vituperation” for the reason it profits us nothing. But in a cyber world, we feel that these restraints can be relaxed, and whatever personal frustrations we may feel in our private life, we can easily find a means to vent without fear of reprisal and consequence in this surreal (for want of a better word) world of the internet. With the effort to point out my indiscretions regarding chat-room ethics, I wonder why nobody speaks of the malice that is so clearly evident and apart of the reality of cyber world. Look at Bob Mac on 'Love in Bloom' as one tiny example of a large reality. Many of us have been on the receiving end of the ugliest malice that I have ever witnessed: MSK when at SLOP was a punching bag, as he was on RoR, Rich Engle too... or….perhaps even yourself. God, the things I have read.

So I agree with you, then, that our interaction would be entirely different if we were interacting with each other—face-to-face---at some Queen Street Café, free of the synthetic form of communication that is this cyber word. Plus, in personal conversation, if I should counter you in friendly disagreement over a philosophical issue—it would seem rather odd for the other to say: “before you tossed that rebuttal at me—you should have credited the thinker who made the very same point!” ...or something to this effect. You know what I mean.

What can I say, I’m old school. I like face-to-face and three dimensional interactions. I want to see you, and if it is my Angie babes, I want to touch her. So old-school. ;] I am also fond of the fact that any acrimony someone may feel toward me be hidden in hypocrisy. :turned:

-Victor

Edited May 2, 2007 by Victor Pross

[william.scherk]

Briefly, let me indicate my attitude about message boards:

They are

a social outlet,

an email party, a written chat-room

—not a forum of professional writers seeking profits or exam grades.

I do not regard flippant posts—or discussion starts—as a serious breach of ethics.

I do find the sheer malice of seeking out “public disgraces” very appalling, especially when it is masquerading as “justice.”

any where you find an “article” at OL that specifically says “by Victor Pross” it is ME

This is a glorified chat-room with an intellectual bent. But at the end of the day: it is a social outing.

when it comes to publishing a book, this is where integrity counts.

I don’t give a rat’s ass about chat-rooms ---other than being a social distraction

-Victor

DOWNLOAD MP3 --

Being a movie fan, I had to borrow a Madame Bovary DVD

(starring Jennifer Jones) and coloring book from an acquaintance

(well, a former friend, and 'borrow' is the wrong word, mostly. I steal from him

like he stole my soul with his unfair criticisms. Any way, I read the book

in high school, but have forgotten a lot).

The film is mostly shots of Jennifer's

tits and her ass and a bunch of Frenchified countryside which was actually

filmed on the MGM back lot, but anyway, I hear from a friend

it was based on the novel, I think.

From what I am able to borrow and gather from information and whole

sections of websites and nonsexual chatroom encounters, but not in any

manner a plagiarizing way, it is one of the big ass French romantic realist

novels of the 19th century. It is regarded as pretty much the best and

Flawbert's biggest work. Flawbert's sluttish heroine seemed to be mostly

okay being a slut, her actions justified in a non-objectivist way mostly

on the surface by her sexless, empty marriage of convenience to the

turnip headed small penis hubby and the shitty grind of of provincial life.

A little about the tale: Madame Bovary is the story of Emmy-lou Dannie-lynn

Bovary, an unhappily married woman who seeks escape through drugs, reality TV,

whorish 'relationships' with pig farmers and gypsie dancers.

The book is long (almost as long as a Michael Stuart Kelly/Daniel Barnes boogaloo),

but it threw the covers off the beds women in the 19th century had to lie in:

the women of France were not yet legally more than a dog or donkey or sow and were

expected to obey their husbands, to stay in their kitchens and salons while

the men went pig farming, or left for months to fight in elections overseas in Iraq

Ultimately, Emmy's sluttishness leads to her disgrace and death and dismemberment, I think

(I watched the movie while drinking and just remembered to jerk off to the picture of my honey

at the end, but I didn't use Viagra and anyhow I passed out in mid thought).

So in terms of the book's 'moral message' or 'sense of life -- not pretending to be all O-lier than thou

I don't agree with it or like ityet too much at all for the most part -- it wasn't a very convincing

portrayal of a sluttish french housewife, not based on the sluts I know . . . (Yet, I want to see

the film again when I am not shitfaced).

Questions: have you seen the film or read the novel? What is your own or borrowed or chatroom

view of this literary big seller? And what the heck is its point, its take home message, its bone, its

'moral theme''? Was the character a hero, however flawed and completely whorish and demented

and diseased by corruption, or was she merely a promiscuous, deceiving all the rebel artists and

lovely men, a dirty, fiendish slut who should have been dragged behind an oxcart?

[oops, I forgot to note that the rant above was 'inspired by a recent post of Victor's, on a TO area writers board:

Being the nostalgic movie fan I am, I rented Madame Bovary staring Jennifer Jones. I read the book years ago, as a high school assignment, but have forgotten much of it. The movie is based on the novel, of course, of the same name. From what I gather from information on websites, it is one of the most central French novels of the 19th century. It is regarded as Flaubert's most important work. Flaubert's adulterous heroine was happy in her contraventions, her actions seemingly warranted by her dreary and lifeless marriage and the over all banalities and emptiness of provincial life.

A little about the story: Madame Bovary is the story of Emma Bovary, an unhappily married woman who seeks escape through ?forbidden relationships? (sexual!) with other men. The book could be seen as an expose of the situation of women in the 19th century: women who had not yet been emancipated and were expected to obey their husbands, to stay in their homes while the men went to work, or left for months to fight in wars, and were basically seen as ?secondary citizens.? Ultimately, Madame Bovary's indiscretions and her desire and need for love and romance lead to her downfall.

So in terms of the books ?moral message? or ?sense of life??I don?t agree with it or like yet too much. (Yet, I want to see the movie).

Questions: have you seen the movie or read the book? What is your take on this literary great? And what do you think its ?moral theme? is? Was the character a heroine, however flawed and defeated?or was she merely a promiscuous, deceiving adulterous?

-Victor

http://writers.meetup.com/330/messages/boa...2988980#8389043 ]

Edited May 2, 2007 by william.scherk

[Victor Pross]

Will,

What the….? I am at a loss in understanding your intentions. I don’t deny lifting text out of sheer laziness—providing well-established prosaic facts of the novel's background to ignite discussion. That's all there is to it, judge. ;] The real interest I had was conversation. That's all. Not saying it's right...just saying what it was about. Your late arrival on the scene as a "moral harbinger" is rather silly looking...as it is unnecessarily enthusiastic. Do you have a cape? Haven’t you got something better to do? I have moved on. This issue [and thread] is old news. Move on, brother, move on. :hmm: Too much time on your hands? Are you still interested in that Queen Street drink?

-Victor

edit:

Will,

Investigating reporter on the scene! Woooo-hoooo! :super: Hee-hee! :turned:

Here, tiger spin these through your diligent research. You have time, don’t you? :zorro:

*Caricature: Exploring the Light Side

*Caricature: Exploring the Dark Side

*A Simple, Simple Philosophy of Love and Appreciation.

*Portrait of the artist as a young punk: A ribald rebel with a cause

*The Age of SO WHAT?

* Elvis Presley: universal Rock Icon.

Come back and let us know what you find, won’t you? :yawn:

Now then, I must get back to my painting.

-Victor

Edited May 2, 2007 by Victor Pross

[Victor Pross]

Will, I love it! We have a satire artist here, do we? ;] (Okay, sorry for being a snot in that one post). Oh, this is a thing of beauty! Wait till Angie gets a load of how I really look!

-Victor :turned:

Edit:

Hey, I just sent an email of this image to Angie. When she wakes up, this will greet her. I said: “Good morning, honey. Kiss me.” Hee-hee!!

[John Dailey]

~ I think that at THIS point, in this thread, maybe we ALL (yeah, me too) should take to heart...and most especially think about...Burns' famous opening poem-line in To a Louse (pardon the apparent plagiary; oh, nm: I credited the ref...I think...):

"O wad the Power the giftie gie us

To see oursels as ithers see us!"

LLAP

J:D

[John Dailey]

Addendum:

~ Nothing like re-reading what one's written and seeing thereafter how it can so easily (especially nowadays) be mis-interpreted!

~ For those focusing on my ID'ing the poem's name, I was merely doing that to avoid accusations of plagiarism, to insure that no one considered that *I* originated the quote (gah, I hate these PC-times!)

~ I was intending NO allusion to...anyone.

~ My intended stress was on the quote itself.

~ 'Nuff said.

LLAP

J:D

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Dragonfly,

This is a little late in coming, but thank you very much for uncovering the plagiary.

Michael