Living with Mother

[Victor Pross]

Living with Mother and Approaching 40 :baby:

We hear of people still living with their parents well into their 20s. They live in the basement and seem locked into an adolescent freeze-frame.

As soon as you turn 18, you are an adult. Legally, you are an adult.

I was a late bloomer when I moved out on my own. I was at the ripe age of 19. I was surviving on a dishwasher’s wages. I was raised by my grandparents. My grandfather was the first to pass away when I was 13 and then my grandmother passed away years later. I had to move on.

Consider this: I know someone who is 37 years of age and still lives with his mother. He has always lived with her, never once venturing out on his own. This person is an avowed Objectivist. He is relatively ambitious, but that is open to question. He can get dressed, walk around, engage in conversations and study OPAR.

Why would sucn a person not move out at his age and live a life of a fully responsible adult?

He doesn’t live with his mother because she is an ailing parent and requires his care. She is in good health and works full-time. He is in good health and works full-time. So there is nothing that prohibits him from moving out on his own.

Question: Is this person living a hypocritical life, given Objectivism’s strong emphasis on independence? And outside of Objectivism, what do you have to say of a person, generally speaking, who still lives with his mother at the age of 37?

Any views?

Edited February 24, 2007 by Victor Pross

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Any views?

Victor,

Yes.

Different strokes for different folks.

For me, and I suspect for normal healthy people, that decision would be psychologically unhealthy. But I see nothing ethically wrong with this.

Also, there are elements in a person's private life that are not available for consideration, so I cannot judge what I do not know. This arrangement might actually be beneficial to both.

Here is a negative example of benefit. Suppose both suffered deeply from the loss of a loved one and had a genetic predisposition toward depression (which could lead to suicide). Their support of each other would be a very good thing.

I can't think of a positive example without seeing the image of the man hanging on to his mother's skirt hems way after the time he should have grown up, but I am sure one can be drummed up with enough thought.

Michael

[Chris Grieb]

I think I'm going withhold judgement. Some things are running through my mind but I think I would have to know more. One quick thing is that he may fear loneliness.

[Victor Pross]

Chris and Michael,

Knowing this individual well, I do believe it is a fear of the unknown and a fear of loneliness where both are concerned. I have huffed and puffed about his moving out, but that is only after he has been annoyingly raucous about the welfare state and independence and blah, blah, blah.

It’s on those occasions that I say this: “Um, excuse me? Norman Bates lived with his mother, that’s true—but at least she was dead! And he was responsible enough to operate the motel with occasional intervals of stabbing pretty blondes while they shower.”

I suppose it comes down to this: I’m very much like MSK with my strong antipathy to hypocrisy.

-Victor

Edited February 24, 2007 by Victor Pross

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

It certainly is kind of funny if a dude like that gives advice to others about their relationships. He doesn't have any first-hand wisdom to draw on, only things by others he reads or views, or observes in his neighbors.

I bet a dude like that is a great Monday-morning quarterback or armchair general, too. He comes with a sanction already built-in. "Momma knows best and she agrees with me, so she must be right."

OK, OK, OK...

Enough trashing the unknown...

Michael

[Victor Pross]

I know this person, so I can trash a-way. But no names! I'm not that mean.

I swear to God (or Aristotle) that this is the truth: The dude bought a movie as a present for his mother’s birthday present. The flick was “Throw Momma from the train” with Danny Devito. I kid you not! I am dead serious. Was he expressing some angry psychological baggage?

It’s a funny world.

Edited February 24, 2007 by Victor Pross

[Kat]

He is probably waiting until he marries a girl just like mom.

Seriously, as long as he is paying his fair share and they have plenty of room, get along well, give each other enough personal space, aren't co-dependent, etc. and the living situation works well for them, I don't see it as being all that bad. I could never do it though and I moved out about a week after I turned 18. I couldn't wait to get out on my own and worked the graveyard shift at the donut shop to do it. Of course I didn't graduate from college until I was 38....

So maybe he is doing it for selfish reasons. When he moves out, he should have a good chunk of cash saved for a house.

Kat

[Chris Grieb]

Victor; I have to ask. Is your friend deep in the closet? I like your line about Norman Bates.

[Victor Pross]

Victor; I have to ask. Is your friend deep in the closet? I like your line about Norman Bates.

Chris,

Deep in the closet? I'm not sure I know what you mean. Could you elaborate?

(BTW, he is no longer a friend, but for other reasons).

-Victor

Edited February 24, 2007 by Victor Pross

[Judith]

I think it's hard for any of us to answer this question without projecting our own relationships with our own mothers onto the situation.

Personally, I'd rather commit suicide than live like that.

But what if they're actually genuinely good friends? Who knows? Maybe they're just good roommates?

On the other hand, is it possible to be simply a roommate, without any psychological baggage, with one's mother?

His business -- his life.

Judith

[Victor Pross]

I think it's hard for any of us to answer this question without projecting our own relationships with our own mothers onto the situation.

Personally, I'd rather commit suicide than live like that.

But what if they're actually genuinely good friends? Who knows? Maybe they're just good roommates?

On the other hand, is it possible to be simply a roommate, without any psychological baggage, with one's mother?

His business -- his life.

Judith

But would you date this guy? Or take a shower at his place? And Would you take his side when he is clearly in the wrong -- that he should wear clean underwear in case he gets hit by a car? Hee-hee.

Edited February 24, 2007 by Victor Pross

[Judith]

But would you date this guy? Or take a shower at his place? And Would you take his side when he is clearly in the wrong -- that he should wear clean underwear in case he gets hit by a car? Hee-hee.

Date him? If I liked him. Take a shower at his place? If it were clean, and if I liked his mother! If he didn't wear clean underwear, I probably wouldn't date him!

Judith

[Victor Pross]

Hey Judith, Think of all the fun you could have with this guy. You could take him to dinner and tell him that if he eats all his yummy bisque, he’ll get to see the picture of the bunny at the bottom. Yah! The next day you can watch Saturday morning cartoons together. You can also read comic books together. But I wouldn’t get into an argument over who is stronger: superman or the Hulk. He is very sensitive about these matters. Hey, I ought to set you two up! (Pardon me, I'm in a funky mood tonight...it happens. Just ask Angie).

Really though, I suspect a certain amount of emotional immaturity from just such a person. Would you not stop to ask yourself: why is this guy living with his mom—at her place, not his! Why indeed! And don’t forget the total context: he didn’t return home after a failed business venture or marriage or whatever. He never left. It would give pause to any women, I think.

-Victor

Edited February 24, 2007 by Victor Pross

[Chris Grieb]

Is he a deeply closeted homosexual? That was the question I was asking.

[Victor Pross]

Is he a deeply closeted homosexual? That was the question I was asking.

No. Not at all…from what I know anyway. Mind you, I did catch him snooping around in my underwear drawer once and he told me he was merely checking to see if I was a boxer or brief man. Apparently my own manhood hung in the balance if my choice for undergarments were pink boxers.

He is all man, from what I know. I just wish he would stop checking my ass out.

Hey, Chris….I’m messing with your mind now. LOL.

Edited February 24, 2007 by Victor Pross

[Chris Grieb]

Why I can't I forget the line; "After all a boy's best friend is his mother".

Edited February 24, 2007 by Chris Grieb

[Rich Engle]

There are all kinds of variants of this arrangement. Personally, I've never understood it, because of my background. I had a very close relationship with my mom. I focus on the good parts, because the bad ones were off the hook.

It's hard to forgive someone who kills themself in front of your sister's 13th birthday party table. She was always fond of the dramatic. But I was able to forgive her, because she had her own demons and her own sicknesses.

So I just don't relate to any of it. The Oedipal thing, I never got. I'm not saying everyone that ends up living with their mom for an extended period has mommy-effing frustration, although I've met a few. And I know more than a few people that got out on their own and still married what amounts to their mother. But what's the point in psychologizing?

"Mama's Boys" definitely seem to be more prevalent in certain cultures. There's all makes and models. And then there's the other side of it, where mom sabotages junior.

Like I said, I know it's there, I just don't get it.

Sometimes, it's just a matter of circumstances.

[Danneskjold]

Why I can't I forget the line; "After all a boy's best friend is his mother".

And there we come across the distinction between boy and man. I'd also throw guy in there as a sub-section of boy.

[Judith]

Hey Judith, Think of all the fun you could have with this guy. You could take him to dinner and tell him that if he eats all his yummy bisque, he’ll get to see the picture of the bunny at the bottom. Yah! The next day you can watch Saturday morning cartoons together. You can also read comic books together. But I wouldn’t get into an argument over who is stronger: superman or the Hulk. He is very sensitive about these matters. Hey, I ought to set you two up!

Er -- Victor -- that was a hypothetical question and a hypothetical answer. Don't run too far with it!

:sick:

Judith

[David Martin]

Hello All,

As an acquiantance of the person who currently resides with his mother, I maintain that the aforementioned

individual has been afforded the opportunity to save money via this arrangement with the ultimate goal of securing his own place in the need future. Hence, by living with his mother it allows him to maintain a frugal lifestyle to that end.

It is for this reason that Victor's disingenuous character assassination of the gentleman in question is very suspect.

I wish to retain my annonymity out of respect to both Victor and the person being slighted.

[Victor Pross]

Hello All,

As an acquiantance of the person who currently resides with his mother, I maintain that the aforementioned

individual has been afforded the opportunity to save money via this arrangement with the ultimate goal of securing his own place in the need future. Hence, by living with his mother it allows him to maintain a frugal lifestyle to that end.

It is for this reason that Victor's disingenuous character assassination of the gentleman in question is very suspect.

I wish to retain my annonymity out of respect to both Victor and the person being slighted.

David,

Welcome to OL, if indeed you are new. You will note that "Living with Mother" is a thread subject, and that I don't give any names. Therefore, nobody's character is being “assassinated.” That is a courtesy that I extended to the real-life counter part that generated this topic, a courtesy that was not extended to me when this person felt at liberty to use my name. Let's keep that gem in mind. Anyway, why do you feel the need to defend somebody—who was not mentioned?

Victor

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

I wish to retain my annonymity out of respect to both Victor and the person being slighted.

Your name is not David Martin?

Michael

[Greybird]

Without getting into any personal matters as to Victor's example, I'll have to register my strong demurral about his premise. (It is a premise, not just a question. Look at the smiley. *sigh*)

Just as we ought not to judge someone's moral status solely from external information (certainly for anyone not a public figure), we ought not to judge someone's degree of independence that way. Especially when unasked.

Many possibilities come to mind, apart from the sizable one already mentioned — that of saving money for a place of one's own, in this spastic economy and chaotic housing market.

~ Ill physical health is often not at all visible from outward appearances. Sometimes we want it that way. My mother didn't show any outward signs of her cancer for three years. She wore a wig, to hide the most obvious such sign, for the last two.

~ Emotional or psychological health can be at issue. I spent a fortune on phone calls to my parents, taking care of many issues for them, financial and (mostly) otherwise, this in the day before flat-rate long distance. It would have been much easier to be readily at hand to help them, not 350 miles away. Eventually, I made such a move.

~ Personal affection. Not everyone, as we might think from cultural memes, gets estranged from one's parents in adolescence.

~ Finances, more generally. Business or other reversals are often not at all apparent to others, even to one's close friends ... we often keep matters of money closer to the vest than those of love, in this society, lest we lose the Western equivalent of "face."

About the only obvious factor involved in sharing a home with one's parents is that it could be harder to have a personal romantic and sexual life, with others being present in the house. Yet we wouldn't necessarily know about such a friend's other arrangements — where he or she spends the night, and with whom. And a similar problem arises for any romantic partners who have children in the house.

None of these issues impinge, necessarily, on the measure of one's independence. I'd say that for those outside the closest, most intimate circle of friends or relatives, it really isn't anyone's business.

Let's not forget one other, much broader issue: The leaving-at-18-or-so pattern is relatively new in human history. For at least 98 percent of civilization, several generations normally lived under one roof, usually out of necessity, but also for benefits: aid in child-rearing, more incomes and sources of work, stronger family trades or businesses, emotional and financial resilience.

We shouldn't assume, because the Industrial Revolution made routine home-leaving, single-adult life, and the "nuclear family" possible, that any of these are thus required, morally or otherwise.

Edited March 28, 2007 by Greybird

[Chris Grieb]

Steve; Very thoughtful post. I always finding reason that I am grateful to be living in the US in the 21st century and not some other time or place.

[bmacwilliam]

Just as we ought not to judge someone's moral status solely from external information (certainly for anyone not a public figure), we ought not to judge someone's degree of independence that way. Especially when unasked.

No way, actions speak louder than words.

Illness, mental or otherwise OK. That's about it. Cultural factors - maybe. Finances? No - save perhaps post-secondary education. What the industrial revolution did was raise our standard of living so that extended families didn't have to crowd under one roof. Personal affection? Ewwwww....

If you want to help and be near a parent then move in next door or down the street. In the absense of a health or education reason, the chances of the adult child being a complete loser if they live at home go up astronomically over the age of about 23 or so. I'd bet my bottom dollar this guy fits this description. Ask his girlfriend - oh wait, has he been laid in the last 20 years? Didn't think so.

Bob