My AmazonReview of "The Reasonable Woman," allegedly by Wendy McElroy

[George H. Smith]

One thing to consider is that Kinsella and Rodriguez are actively monitoring this thread, and may be preparing to pursue the action contained in the ultimate paragraph:

Hey, Brad, did you know that all those months Wendy was practicing her hobby with you and telling you that I knew all about it, that she was lying through her teeth? She always told me that she was going over to visit Kathy D. I found out that you were fucking my girlfriend of 10 years when I called Kathy to tell Wendy something, and Kathy, who had obviously been sleeping, couldn't think of a good explanation of why Wendy wasn't there. I then waited outside until you drove up to my place and dropped Wendy off.

Hey, Brad, did you know that I insisted that Wendy tell you the truth, i.e., that I didn't know about the affair? Did she ever tell you? Well, she told me several times that she told you. Was that true?

Hey, Brad, do you know about that sweet foursome that Wendy and I had with C***** and L***shortly before you took your future bride to Canada? Wendy told me that you are pretty well hung (good girth, she said), but I doubt if you can compete with L***. While Wendy was working her magic with L*** for around two hours, C***** said, My God, "L*** is really well hung, but Wendy makes him look like a snake! Brad is going to be one happy guy." We all had a good laugh over that one...

Hey, Brad, do you know about the time, roughly 3 weeks before you lovebirds built your Canadian nest, that Wendy called me up at Franklin West, told me that she and D***** P******* had been drinking all night, and that they wanted me to come over with an 8-ball, and then they would give me a leisurely happy ending massage? Wendy explained that this might be the last chance to have fun before moving to Canada. I Is Canada really that boring? Or is it just you?

Hey, Brad, do you know about the time when Wendy flew in to visit Kathy while I was living in Long Beach and Wendy called me up and asked if I would like to drive up for a little "reunion." Wendy, always the clever wordsmith, put it this way: "You provide the coke, and Kathy and I will provide the head."

Hey, Brad, do you know that Wendy would never lie to you about plagiarism?. Other things, obviously, but never plagiarism.

Hey, Brad, do you know about the time....shit, there are so many stories and so little time. So stand by your woman, Brad, just as she has stood by you.

Ghs

P.S. I do not respond well to threats.

[kiaer.ts]

In 100 Voices, one of Rand's lawyers is quoted advising her not to sue over a certain alleged infringment. (I don't recall the circumstances.) Rand got another lawyer and won at trial but lost on appeal. So apparently she didn't always follow her lawyers' advice.

Getting a second opinion is hardly the same as refusing to avail oneself of professional advice at all. Did any of the 100 Voices report that she or either of her lawyers tried sending demands and insults by courier to the colleagues, friends and relatives of her opponent with various deadlines, ultimatums, and promises of a campaign of public humiliation rather than legal action?

Back in the eighties at Cornell there used to be rather highbrow philosophical arguments carried out on the walls of the stalls in the philosophy department building. Had Rand, on an amphetamine bender, rather than suing in court by means of a lawyer, chosen to threaten and attempt to embarrass her opponent by using that internet predecessor, the men's room wall, then we would have a closer parallel to this thread.

[jriggenbach]

JR used to have Diane's email address, so maybe he can send it to me.

I'm no longer in touch with Diane, George. Nor do I still have a copy of the message I contributed to the e-mail series about this plagiarism case back in '98. Sorry. I think Ken LaFave may be able to reach Diane. Try him. If you no longer have his e-dress, write to me privately and I'll give it to you.

JR

[jriggenbach]

[A] very sharp LA attorney . . . took a number of my courses before I met Wendy. (I was giving an FOR II course, and one other (I can't recall the name offhand) before Wendy entered the scene. This attorney's first name was Linda, but I cannot recall her last name. I know she inherited a substantial sum of money from her mom, after which she quit the legal field. The last I heard, Linda was doing a kind of road show, traveling around and doing public readings of poetry.

Linda was very well known in libertarian circles, so I was hoping someone knows her, or at least knows her last name.

Linda Abrams, George. I think I can figure out how to get in touch with her. (I haven't seen her in something like 15 years.)

I no longer have any idea where Terry Diamond or Melinda Hanson are.

JR

[George H. Smith]

JR used to have Diane's email address, so maybe he can send it to me.

I'm no longer in touch with Diane, George. Nor do I still have a copy of the message I contributed to the e-mail series about this plagiarism case back in '98. Sorry. I think Ken LaFave may be able to reach Diane. Try him. If you no longer have his e-dress, write to me privately and I'll give it to you.

JR

Thanks. I have Ken' email address.

You knew Wendy before I did. Would you care to express an opinion about her claim that she co-developed all of my FOR material?

Ghs

[Robert Campbell]

Neil: thanks for the singularly irrelevant aside. You sure don't miss an opportunity to take a poke at Rand, do you?

PDS,

That was uncalled for.

The context, I am reasonably sure, was my pointing out to Ted Keer that Ayn Rand was not above using lawyers to bully people by threatening meritless lawsuits against them.

Robert Campbell

[PDS]

Neil: thanks for the singularly irrelevant aside. You sure don't miss an opportunity to take a poke at Rand, do you?

PDS,

That was uncalled for.

The context, I am reasonably sure, was my pointing out to Ted Keer that Ayn Rand was not above using lawyers to bully people by threatening meritless lawsuits against them.

Robert Campbell

We'll have to disagree as to whether it was uncalled for, or not.

If this thread is to be related to the topics that Ghs has raised and attempted to maintain focus upon, then Neil didn't need to be jumping back on his hobby horse. Once again. For the 1,255th time. And since Ayn Rand isn't here to answer Neil's constant slights, and Neil can speak for himself, I feel no compunction whatsover about knocking Neil off his hobby horse.

Fair enough?

[George H. Smith]

I know you mean well, but most of the people on OL have NO conception of what Wendy and I were involved during our ten years together. From 1975 to 1981, we were major figures in the Hollywood "swinging" community. We went to only the best swing parties, specifically, The Gabor Mansion (aka "Tommy's) in Beverly Hills, which was called by Playboy, the classiest swing house in the U.S., and the A-Frame in the Hollywood Hills, which was in the same class.

This sure isn’t the thread for P.G. Wodehouse references! Sounds more like Eyes Wide Shut. The password: Fidelio. I take it nowadays it’s more like what you see in Borat. In South Florida we have a club called Plato’s, and there’s a least one other. Can’t say I’ve ever been.

Earlier you were talking about your new project Seriously Suicidal (the title made me worried that there was an embedded cry for help), so now you’re switching to a memoir? Or doing both? BTW, these Camille St. George pieces you wrote, are they available anywhere?

Sex, Drugs, and Philosophy is far more important than Seriously Suicidal. I have long believed that I could make SDP a best seller, if I write it candidly and with humor.

The key to SDP is to be bruatally honest about the pros and cons of rational hedonism. I also plan to have a chapter on misconceptions about hedonism.

For example, it is often said that hedonism, because it focuses on transitory pleasures of the body, cannot possibly have the lasting power that we find we find with pleasures of the mind. Well, that depends. If one learns how to mesh pleasures of the body with pleasures of the mind, then you have a whole that is greater than the sum of its parts.

Another example: Fantasies are never as exciting if they are fulfilled. There is always a letdown, so to speak. To this I say: Bullshit.

Now, it is true that if a person goes around seeking physical pleasures with no purpose or plan, then everything just becomes a blur. But if you give some thought to what you want out of an experience, and if you arrange things so that the experience stays focused and doesn't get out of control, then the real experience is always much better than merely fantasizing.

That is why those Swing parties were so beneficial. At the small private parties hosted by Rob and Syl (the two LAPD officers), which typically had 5 or 6 couples, we usually had fantasy rounds. That is, when it became your turn, you could arrange any kind of fantasy you wanted, so long as no one objected. Those were really interesting. For example, since there were five gals there, I wanted to see what it would be like to have a 5+1 experience. I had had many threesomes, and a few foursomes.

The conclusion of my little experiment was as follows: the difference, in terms of excitement, between 1*1 and 2+1 is enormous, but there is a principle of diminishing returns at work. By the time you get to 5+1, you can't really tell the difference between that and 4+1. I am taking about a scenario where the guy lies back and the women work on him. You know, one on each nipple, one on Jason and one on the Argonauts -- you get the picture. At some point your body gets so flooded with sensations that you cannot distinguish between them.

Some of the fantasy rounds were very edgy. Syl was a beautiful Latina women and very enthusiastic about fantasies, so I once set up this scenario. I suggested that Syl should put on her police uniform, and then let the five guys take it off and gang bang her. At this point, the other guys perked up considerably, and though Syl was excited by the gang bang part, she was reticient about the uniform part. We worked out a compromise -- some of the police uniform but not all -- and everyone had a good time, including the women who were watching.

Now I ask you: Which do you suppose would be more exciting:. the fantasy of gangbanging a beautiful cop? Or actually doing it? No contest. Not even close.

Btw, many years later, while I was living in SF, I caught an episode of the television show LAPD. The entire show was devoted to a married couple who had been with the LAPD for many years. Guess who these cops were?

If SDP is successful, I suppose Wendy will claim that she co-developed the book because she went to all those parties with me.

Ghs

[Selene]

George:

Agreed. It is also one of the major reasons that the D/s community is growing by leaps and bounds.

Adam

[George H. Smith]

George:

Agreed. It is also one of the major reasons that the D/s community is growing by leaps and bounds.

Adam

One of the first things I learned is why so many women went to swing parties. I attended numerous parties where the women outnumbered the men.

Women will be far more adventurous if they are in a controlled environment where they can specify the limits and have complete confidence that those limits will be respected. The last thing a woman wants is, for example, to set up a situation where no intercourse is involved (many women at parties found this too intimate), only to have some guy try to fuck her.

On the other hand, men -- well, most men will take anything they can get. On the whole, women have much more sexual intelligence than men. They are aware of subtleties and nuances, whereas men are happy if they can stick their dick in something wet and warm.

Ghs

[9thdoctor]

Sex, Drugs, and Philosophy is far more important than Seriously Suicidal. I have long believed that I could make SDP a best seller, if I write it candidly and with humor.

The key to SDP is to be bruatally honest about the pros and cons of rational hedonism. I also plan to have a chapter on misconceptions about hedonism.

So which philosopher is your best reference for rational hedonism? From my study of Epicurus, I’d say it’s got to be someone else. While he’s associated with the pleasures of the table, in real life he had a thing for barley cakes, talk about a non sequitur. Ultimately he was more interested in minimizing discomfort than pursuing pleasure. I find the stories of Diogenes the Cynic pleasuring himself in the market hilarious.

BTW, in his memoir Hitchens has a funny anecdote/image about threesomes that he calls “the carwash”.

A bit of a tangential question (for anyone), the specific lady-friend to whom I’m not married has expressed a big fear of genital herpes, I looked into it and, according to Wikipedia anyway, 45 million people are infected in the U.S. It’s not info that gets regularly shared even among friends, but that figure sounds crazy to me. I wonder if it’s like Global Warming alarmism, whether the data is really propaganda. Seems like that would be an even bigger challenge to the swinging scene (than HIV), even with a condom you can pass herpes when you bump and grind.

Now I ask you: Which do you suppose would be more exciting:. the fantasy of gangbanging a beautiful cop? Or actually doing it? No contest. Not even close.

Not having the benefit of your experience, strictly by introspection I don’t think I would want other exposed male members hanging/thrusting around me, just doesn’t sound like a fantasy. Call me a prude or whatever, don’t care.

Edited January 16, 2011 by Ninth Doctor

[George H. Smith]

A number of my experiences at swing parties will make for amusing, if edgy, stories in SDP.

At the A-Frame, I was in a typical orgy. The lights were fairly dim, and the bodies of various couples were intertwined.

A cute gal was sitting on my face, so I couldn't see much of anything. Then, as often happens, some other gal started giving me head. All this went on for maybe 10 minutes until everyone finished.

As we were reaching for the towels, I noticed that the woman who had blown me looked familiar. She looked at me and said, "George? George Smith?"

I replied, "Yeah, and you look very familiar but I can't recall your name."

"I'm Janet. Remember me? I used to attend those Students of Objectivism meetings at at the University of Arizona. My husband and I moved to Pasadena six months ago."

Suffice it to say that this was a once-in-a-lifetime experience.

Ghs

[George H. Smith]

Not having the benefit of your experience, strictly by introspection I don’t think I would want other exposed male members hanging/thrusting around me, just doesn’t sound like a fantasy. Call me a prude or whatever, don’t care.

You are not a prude. You just don't know anything about swing parties. There are many different rooms, including sectioned-off areas for couples where they can close the curtains for privacy.

Where did you get the idea that everything at a swing party involves masses of naked flesh? That is very odd. In a large house, there are usually a couple orgy rooms, but the rest are more specialized.

Suppose two beautiful women ask if you would like to retire to a private area, one where you will be neither seen nor disturbed, for a threesome. Sound like more of a palatable fantasy to you? It wasn't that unusual.

[9thdoctor]

You are not a prude. You just don't know anything about swing parties.

Guilty as charged. As far as first hand knowledge goes.

Where did you get the idea that everything at a swing party involves masses of naked flesh?

I didn’t say that, I was replying only to your specific question about the fantasy of gang banging a lady cop.

Suppose two beautiful women ask if you would like to retire to a private area, one where you will be neither seen nor disturbed, for a threesome. Sound like more of a palatable fantasy to you?

Indeed.

[George H. Smith]

A bit of a tangential question (for anyone), the specific lady-friend to whom I’m not married has expressed a big fear of genital herpes....

I have never had any kind of venereal disease in my life, and I never personally encountered someone, male or female, who contracted a venereal disease via swinging. Swingers -- and, remember, I'm talking about the elite during the 1970s in Hollywood -- were careful, considerate, and candid. For one thing, this was a tight-knit community. If word ever got out that you had gone to a party with VD, that was it for you. Your name would be put on a banned list, and you would never be admitted to a class party in Hollywood ever again, for the rest of your life.

These were houses where you had to be recommended by someone and where you were interviewed at least once. And the managers were sticklers for rules. There could be no "tickets." When a guy wanted to swing but his wife or girlfriend didn't, she would sometimes go with him as a "ticket" so he could get in the door. That was a big no-no. If the guy started swinging, the gal had to swing as well. Bouncers would patrol looking for women were just sitting around. These tickets and their partners would usually get one warning: You should both participate. If the problem persisted, they were told to leave and to never return.

I saw this happen quite a few times.

Ghs

[George H. Smith]

I didn’t say that, I was replying only to your specific question about the fantasy of gang banging a lady cop.

Your imagination is a bit limited. Have you ever heard of a police lineup? Unless you are offended by any dick within a distance of four or five feet, you wouldn't get freaked out. It's not like you have to duck to avoid getting hit by swinging dicks.

Or if you are thinking of things you find in porn, such as double penetration, I never saw that at a swing party, because anal sex was extremely rare. I can't recall ever seeing one instance of it. The hygiene was a little dicey,

Ghs

[George H. Smith]

Hey, Stephen Kinsella!

In case you are lurking -- I have found that lawyers are sometimes cowardly weasels when it comes to dealing openly with problems, and you certainly fill the bill -- I want to ask you a question:

Are you gearing up to bring the State crashing down on me if if I dare to say, in any form of communication to anyone in the world, that poor persecuted Wendy did not co-develop my FOR course, even if my course was developed a year before I met Wendy?

Well, here is my idea: You should be prosecuted for fraud if you say, in any form to anyone in the world, "I am a competent attorney."

Btw, how did poor persecuted Wendy pay you in 1998? I heard rumors to the effect that she paid you in trade. But those were only vicious rumors, and I never believed them.

Ghs

[9thdoctor]

Your imagination is a bit limited.

Not necessarily, but it seems I had a preconceived notion of what a gang bang was. As in, everyone in all at once, she's got both hands working, mouth, cleavage, and both nether orifices. So far I count six members being accommodated, but maybe she can work one extra between her feet for a total of seven. I've got my share of imagination.

[George H. Smith]

Hey, Stephan Kinsella!

When may we expect you back to argue with such passion against defamation laws? Those were great arguments you gave. Did you happen to read them? I can send you copies, if you like.

Ghs

[George H. Smith]

Your imagination is a bit limited.

Not necessarily, but it seems I had a preconceived notion of what a gang bang was. As in, everyone in all at once, she's got both hands working, mouth, cleavage, and both nether orifices. So far I count six members being accommodated, but maybe she can work one extra between her feet for a total of seven. I've got my share of imagination.

I'm sorry. I'm just goofing with you. Don't take any "criticism" I write on this subject very seriously. I have been writing this stuff in a light vein. I will try to be more careful in the future.

I'm not sure what the technical definition of "gang bang" is, but we used the term to mean a bunch of guys with one gal. Syl was not the type to tolerate 5 bodies piled all over her at once. It was more like Take a ticket and wait for your number to be called. Syl liked to accommodate two at a time, so the lines were short.

Once, when Rob (Syl's husband) set the terms, he said he would like to watch me fuck Syl as hard as I possibly could. I said, "Sure, but is this your fantasy or mine?"

Ghs

[George H. Smith]

Hey, Stephan Kinsella!

How long did it take to get your law degree from the University of Tehran? I hear that Naser Katouzian, Amid Zanjani, and Ali Azmayesh are excellent. Did you study under any of them? I also hear that UT has an excellent course, The Principles of Efficient Beheading.

I was delighted to learn that you like reading my posts. I sure enjoy writing them.

Ghs

[George H. Smith]

Hey, Stephan Kinsella!

If I claim that Wendy only co-wrote 38 percent of the FOR manuscript, will you still sue me for libel?

Ghs

[George H. Smith]

Hey, Stephan Kinsella!

If I say to someone, "There is a rumor circulating that Wendy McElroy did not co-develop the FOR course," am I guilty of defamation?

If I say to someone, "There is a 2 percent chance that Wendy McElroy did not co-develop the FOR course," am I guilty of defamation?

If I am thinking that Wendy did not co-develop my FOR course, and if Neil Schulman uses his psychic powers to read my thoughts, am I guilty of defamation?

If if I say, "Stephan Kinsella will sue me if I claim that Wendy McElroy did not co-develop the FOR course, so I will not claim that Wendy McEroy did not develop the FOR course," am I guilty of defamation?

If I can prove that Wendy McElroy has no character, can you still sue me for defaming her character?

Ghs

[George H. Smith]

Hey, Stephan Kinsella!

I hear that Walmart is having a great sale on balls. You should purchase a new set because you seem to have lost yours.

Wendy told me that Brad has a nice set, so maybe you can borrow his.

Ghs

[George H. Smith]

Hey, Brad!

Wanna play a real funny practical joke on Wendy? Say "George told me about that thing with Valerie" and watch poor Wendy run screaming out of the house.

I hope you keep monitering my posts, because you won't want to miss what's coming up,

Ghs