caroljane Posted January 12, 2011 Share Posted January 12, 2011 Brant and Shayne, what I advocate is that you think about tools as separate from the humans who use them, just for a minute.They exist for a purpose. Cars are manufactured to carry people and things. Bread knives are made to cut bread. Our hands are there to manipulate objects and if we're lucky, other people.Drivers deliberately run down their enemies, people stab their spouses and strangle their siblings. But most cars, knives and hands are not used for these purposes.Guns are manufactured solely to maim or kill living creatures. They are miracles of engineering and often objects of beauty. When used properly, they always do the job for which they are intended.I know the gun is the symbol of your liberty and entwined around your heart and soul. I just wish you could disentangle it a little from your brains.As to me being a coward and a teacher, I am guilty as charged. In fact I am the vice president of the Canadian League of Cowards. Of course I am afraid to be at the end of your guns, either now, or in the apocalyptic Latter Days which have been due since 999CE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pippi Posted January 12, 2011 Share Posted January 12, 2011 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiaer.ts Posted January 12, 2011 Share Posted January 12, 2011 Calm down?Fuck you, housewife.You have some nerve playing off the victim of a shooting to presume to tell me to give up my right to self defense.You are a ghoul. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caroljane Posted January 12, 2011 Author Share Posted January 12, 2011 Calm down?Fuck you, housewife.You have some nerve playing off the victim of a shooting to presume to tell me to give up my right to self defense.You are a ghoul.I ask you to give up nothing. I ask you to think about the price of your right to self-defense, which others pay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pippi Posted January 12, 2011 Share Posted January 12, 2011 (edited) eh forget it. Edited January 12, 2011 by pippi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brant Gaede Posted January 12, 2011 Share Posted January 12, 2011 Brant and Shayne, what I advocate is that you think about tools as separate from the humans who use them, just for a minute.They exist for a purpose. Cars are manufactured to carry people and things. Bread knives are made to cut bread. Our hands are there to manipulate objects and if we're lucky, other people.Drivers deliberately run down their enemies, people stab their spouses and strangle their siblings. But most cars, knives and hands are not used for these purposes.Guns are manufactured solely to maim or kill living creatures. They are miracles of engineering and often objects of beauty. When used properly, they always do the job for which they are intended.I know the gun is the symbol of your liberty and entwined around your heart and soul. I just wish you could disentangle it a little from your brains.As to me being a coward and a teacher, I am guilty as charged. In fact I am the vice president of the Canadian League of Cowards. Of course I am afraid to be at the end of your guns, either now, or in the apocalyptic Latter Days which have been due since 999CE.Guns are not "manufactured solely to main or kill living creatures." If you don't understand this, you don't understand preventing mayhem out of the box in the first place. Do you think the purpose of American nuclear bombs 50 years ago was solely to kill 150,000,000 Russians and their subject peoples? Do you think that's why they were made? Do you begin to understand that men exist not just to fuck women and bring home the bacon? Do you understand why 105 or 110 boys are born for every 100 girls? How do you think Americans won their Revolutionary War or Canadians drove the brigands from Massachusetts from their soil? Shall we disarm the police? Our soldiers? Swords into plowshares? Do you understand the world you live in and the people who people it? Why would YOU ever be at the end of MY gun? Who do you think I am? Have you read my profile? I put certain information in there because there are some people on this list who babble on about war, for instance, but really don't know what the fuck they are talking about. Do you know how difficult it is for knowledge and competence to talk to invincible ignorance? Do you know why I'm alive today? Aside from being lucky? I never let anybody get the drop on me. Why would YOU ever try to get the drop on someone like me? So why does someone like me, a killer capable of killing--been there, done that, can do it again--make someone like you quake in fear about my guns? You know, when the arrows start flying you'll reload them or die.--Brantrant, rant, pant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pippi Posted January 12, 2011 Share Posted January 12, 2011 brant thank you-I posted this in the nyt news thread but want to put it here tooGuns do not kill people, people kill people-and if they didnt have a gun they would use a knife or a rock or whatever they could to achieve their purposeHave you ever read any Rand? Are you interested in her ideas or Objectivism?In my understanding we are responsible for taking care of ourselves-our own selfinterest , our basic survival and our happiness-a gun fits in this sense of taking care of one's self (especially now!)I dont understand your presence here.I have no interest in searching as to why you are here because I dont care. It seems you are just an agitator (as are others here as well)I have a washing machine with one as well, but it performs a service Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pippi Posted January 12, 2011 Share Posted January 12, 2011 (edited) btw chaunce your reposts with no content except a full quote...there is an edit button where you can fix themI am so glad I dont have a kid in public education-last time I checked you were an "educator"god fucking help us Edited January 12, 2011 by pippi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike11 Posted January 12, 2011 Share Posted January 12, 2011 I've wondered how much demographics affect gun laws. Up here in Iglooland we have a very well armed population - of rural hunters. There are plenty of guns in this country (one of the highest rates of ownership in the western world) yet gun control has basically been a non issue.I've noticed rural types are a lot more used to guns and tend to see them as a defense against the State and a defense against criminals. To make a further stereotypical stretch here a lot of gun control advocates I talk to tend to be urbanites who link guns to gangland violence and mass shootings. They don't hunt and big cities have major crime issues.I'd be curious to see if any studies have been done linking places of residence with gun rights attitudes.And Pippi, I hear your house has an over abundance of glass windows. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brant Gaede Posted January 12, 2011 Share Posted January 12, 2011 I've no objection to women being women as long as they let us men be men. Barefoot and pregnant is okay by me if it's okay by she, but I love a woman who packs a gun and wants to be on top*! If she doesn't, I'm still okay if she spreads her legs and zips her lip! Everybody is good for something! --Brant*yes, that's why men do push ups!--but they'd rather not bother Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brant Gaede Posted January 12, 2011 Share Posted January 12, 2011 Calm down?Fuck you, housewife.You have some nerve playing off the victim of a shooting to presume to tell me to give up my right to self defense.You are a ghoul.I ask you to give up nothing. I ask you to think about the price of your right to self-defense, which others pay.Everything costs something. You don't have to go the rights' route to do a cost-benefits analysis. Be my guest. BTW, criminals pay too.--Brant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BaalChatzaf Posted January 12, 2011 Share Posted January 12, 2011 Do I detect the odor of testosterone here?Ba'al Chatzaf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stuart Kelly Posted January 12, 2011 Share Posted January 12, 2011 Daunce,I have no problem giving up guns.Find a way to disarm the different governments and I'll even help you work on such a project.I do mean disarm, too. I mean literally take the guns away from the governments.btw - Why do you trust a government more than you trust Shayne or Brant? In my book, I trust both of those two gentlemen with guns far, far more than I trust governments.Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pippi Posted January 12, 2011 Share Posted January 12, 2011 And Pippi, I hear your house has an over abundance of glass windows.What exactly are you trying to say here? I guess I am an easy target? -whatever.If you dont like what I write and dont feel like addressing it in a coherent manner instead of (bad) one-liners, just dont read my posts.Appreciate it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pippi Posted January 12, 2011 Share Posted January 12, 2011 (edited) I've no objection to women being women as long as they let us men be men. Barefoot and pregnant is okay by me if it's okay by she, but I love a woman who packs a gun and wants to be on top*! If she doesn't, I'm still okay if she spreads her legs and zips her lip! Everybody is good for something! --Brant*yes, that's why men do push ups!--but they'd rather not botherYikes high standards there Brant (I am assuming you are being sarcastic-but you know what happens sometimes when you assume) Edited January 12, 2011 by pippi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sjw Posted January 12, 2011 Share Posted January 12, 2011 I am calm. I have a suggestion for you though: How about you actually address the points that are put to you? Every time I address your point you wriggle and weasel around it. I thought you were a teacher not a politician.I do approve however. You've brought Brant to a level of passionate outburst I've rarely seen. It's a good sight.Shayne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmacwilliam Posted January 12, 2011 Share Posted January 12, 2011 There's a big dose of irony I see in the gun issue. If all of the people who truly didn't want to own a gun were forced to own one, and the people who truly wanted to own a gun were forbidden, I think the crime rate would drop like a stone.Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caroljane Posted January 12, 2011 Author Share Posted January 12, 2011 Calm down?Fuck you, housewife.You have some nerve playing off the victim of a shooting to presume to tell me to give up my right to self defense.You are a ghoul.Mr. Keer:You have sworn at me and called me names, as is your right and common practice, and some of the names were accurate, but in your latest mischaracterization you have gone too far.In calling me a housewife you insult not me, as you intended, but housewives everywhere who work hard for no pay to keep their homes clean and attractive amongst their other multiple 24/7 duties.I do have a house and have been a wife, and have frequently been unemployed outside the home, but real housewives would never admit me to their ranks.Retract your invective, Sir. It is an insult, up with which I shall not put.To possible visitors if you're in town: Don't show up without calling first. A week ahead is preferable. And don't bring your guns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikee Posted January 12, 2011 Share Posted January 12, 2011 Calm down?Fuck you, housewife.You have some nerve playing off the victim of a shooting to presume to tell me to give up my right to self defense.You are a ghoul.Mr. Keer:You have sworn at me and called me names, as is your right and common practice, and some of the names were accurate, but in your latest mischaracterization you have gone too far.In calling me a housewife you insult not me, as you intended, but housewives everywhere who work hard for no pay to keep their homes clean and attractive amongst their other multiple 24/7 duties.I do have a house and have been a wife, and have frequently been unemployed outside the home, but real housewives would never admit me to their ranks.Retract your invective, Sir. It is an insult, up with which I shall not put.To possible visitors if you're in town: Don't show up without calling first. A week ahead is preferable. And don't bring your guns.Given your mindless hysteria about this issue the reactions to this hypocritical thread are not surprising. You could start by educating yourself, reading Brant's posts (carefully, thoughtfully) would be a good start. Or start here: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/1566715.stm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stuart Kelly Posted January 12, 2011 Share Posted January 12, 2011 Does anybody have any thoughts on disarming the government?The government doesn't kill people. Government people kill people, especially when they kill people other people in the government want killed.Is there any reason a "government people" should own a gun and a normal "civilian people" should not? Could it be because a person becomes morally better or more emotionally stable when he or she enters government service? Heh. I would like to see that one defended.Anyway, the purpose of the Second Amendment was precisely to be a check and balance on government people who kill people. That was it's original intent.The policy of checks and balances--allied to individual rights--is the most effective principle of preserving freedom where power structures exist that I have seen so far. If we have to have guns (and I don't see how we can't in today's world), I want the checks and balances. I don't trust people who get all the power, especially when they get a gun in their hands.Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pippi Posted January 12, 2011 Share Posted January 12, 2011 If we have to have guns (and I don't see how we can't in today's world), I want the checks and balances. I don't trust people who get all the power, especially when they get a gun in their hands.MichaelI completely agree. But Michael dismantling the government is good for theory, not practice (in the distant future yes)-it isnt a measure we can take at the moment except to discuss it. What can WE do NOW to stop the government taking over every part of our lives? Also, for the sake of discussion - on the subject of dismantling the government-what can WE do NOW to start the ball rolling?We absolutely need to own guns especially now-it is in direct accordance with Rand's idea of placing our own self-interest first and foremost.I feel more and more powerless to change anything-write my representatives? I dont think so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmacwilliam Posted January 12, 2011 Share Posted January 12, 2011 Is there any reason a "government people" should own a gun and a normal "civilian people" should not? Could it be because a person becomes morally better or more emotionally stable when he or she enters government service? Heh. I would like to see that one defended.If we have to have guns (and I don't see how we can't in today's world), I want the checks and balances. I don't trust people who get all the power, especially when they get a gun in their hands.MichaelYou have just answered your own question. "I would like to see that one defended."You did.The answer is yes, government (or the subset with guns you refer to - police for the most part) are indeed superior in direct relation to the checks and balances you mention. If the "check" upon entry to the service is strict, then there most certainly are better than average people being accepted according to whatever the "check" checks. Of course the "superiority" is directly related to the quality and nature of the checks and balances.I know several police officers, all of whom have a gun and none of whom have or perceive to have "all the power". The checks and balances, for the most part, work reasonably well in my country. Cops who abuse their position are routinely dealt with harshly.Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stuart Kelly Posted January 12, 2011 Share Posted January 12, 2011 Pippi,I don't think you can ever completely dismantle the government.I was making that argument because it highlights so well what one of the main fears gun control advocates in the government have.They are afraid of losing their power. They want to rule others, I believe, because they feel somehow innately superior to others. Guns kinda equalize that when they are not the only ones packing.They want people to deliver obedience to their authority on a silver platter and just shut up and sit down file petitions if they disagree.The ones screaming the loudest against "heated rhetoric" and clamoring for gun control are the very ones I'm afraid of. These are the folks who want total control over others and are the most brutal when they get it. It's already statistically proven that more liberal kinds of people are far less charitable with their own money than more conservative-type folks. But they are very generous doling out OPM (other people's money). This type of person with power tends to be the most ruthless against others, too.Not that it makes any real difference. If a less-ruthless person in power kills you or a more-ruthless person in power kills you, you are just as dead either way,Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caroljane Posted January 12, 2011 Author Share Posted January 12, 2011 Daunce,I have no problem giving up guns.Find a way to disarm the different governments and I'll even help you work on such a project.I do mean disarm, too. I mean literally take the guns away from the governments.btw - Why do you trust a government more than you trust Shayne or Brant? In my book, I trust both of those two gentlemen with guns far, far more than I trust governments.MichaelI think that's a false alternative.I should have been more clear. Of course I am not afraid of Shayne or Brant or responsible gun owners. I am afraid of guns, period, and the irresponsible, irrational, criminal or innocently infantile who will always get hold of them, when they are ubiquitous.I am afraid of the armaments industry and the NRA, with their huge resources. If they achieve their aims they will change my culture and force me to consider myself continually at risk of my life, assuming everyone on the street,like me, could be armed.To you that is secure self=reliance; to me it would be intentional paranoia.As to governments,mine (local, provincial, federal) have not intruded on my life or harmed me so far, in my own estimation.What can I say, I'm Canadian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sjw Posted January 12, 2011 Share Posted January 12, 2011 As to governments,mine (local, provincial, federal) have not intruded on my life or harmed me so far, in my own estimation.And that sums it all up right there.Shayne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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