Right to defend Nat'l borders, or not?

[RagJohn]

This "oh, the pooer Mexicans" is baloney. Why stop there, hmm? Why not the 5 BILLION others who are in bad situations and would LOVE to come here? It's like religion, once you let it loose in your mind, there's no limit to how far it will go, or what it will destroy. Mex's problems are not our problems, let THEM solve them, THERE, I say. So we have to invent fruit and veggie picking machines, and pay Americans a decent wage to run them, so what? So we have to pay 2-3x as much for produce, so what? It's probably a whole 1k a year, and the illegals cost MORE than that, with all their "loads" upon law enforcement, education and medical care. Even if the cost was a direct increase, why not just pay it, to get the reduction in overcrowding, pollution, etc?

[sjw]

There's no right to "defend" against peaceful travel in or out of a national boundary. Of course, only changing that one factor wouldn't work for various reasons. There are other nationalistic premises that would have to be overturned before that would could practically be changed. E.g. welfare and other entitlements.

Shayne

[syrakusos]

The question as framed is a mishmash of stolen concepts and floating abstractions. "They" should solve "their" problems. Obviously, a free nation must defend itself against an invasion by an army seeking to place a different government in control. That is not the same thing as INDIVIDUALS finding work where workers are wanted, unless "RagJohn" got that name cleaning toilets in two different jobs for a 15-hour day like the Mexicans I worked with.

[Alfonso Jones]

YOu are using the concept "right to defend national borders" in an equivocal sense.

Sense 1 (by allusion to common usage of the phrase): Defend borders from invasion by troops of another nation. OF COURSE there is a right to self-defense.

Sense 2: Preventing immigration.

Yes on 1, No on 2.

Sense 2 - - - silly as a matter of policy to prevent immigration with the POSSIBLE exception of immigration of someone with identifiable hostile intent (terrorism)

Bill P

[geekgirl]

YOu are using the concept "right to defend national borders" in an equivocal sense.

Sense 1 (by allusion to common usage of the phrase): Defend borders from invasion by troops of another nation. OF COURSE there is a right to self-defense.

Sense 2: Preventing immigration.

Yes on 1, No on 2.

Sense 2 - - - silly as a matter of policy to prevent immigration with the POSSIBLE exception of immigration of someone with identifiable hostile intent (terrorism)

Bill P

I totally agree with you in principle. And a priority should be given to establishing reliable, consistent, fair, LEGAL, avenues for immigration. But what concerns me is the overall size of the wave we are talking about. This wave of Latino immigration is as large as all the previous waves (Irish, Italian, etc) combined.

England's a perfect example of what I worry about. Labour Party docs that were leaked form the 80s show that they were explicitly working on loosening immigration controls to ensure future voting blocs - precisely what the Left here is seeking to do. Many years and millions of immigrants later, England has given every job created in that time to immigrants, so their employment has remained stagnant. And British culture - where is it? Where are the monty pythons, young ones, absolutely fabulouses, and fawlty towers? There's nothing "uniquely British" anymore, it seems. They traded their prosperity and identity for a Labour lock on power.

Can't immigration be a danger to one's culture and economy simply because of the un-regulated size of it?

[Brant Gaede]

YOu are using the concept "right to defend national borders" in an equivocal sense.

Sense 1 (by allusion to common usage of the phrase): Defend borders from invasion by troops of another nation. OF COURSE there is a right to self-defense.

Sense 2: Preventing immigration.

Yes on 1, No on 2.

Sense 2 - - - silly as a matter of policy to prevent immigration with the POSSIBLE exception of immigration of someone with identifiable hostile intent (terrorism)

Bill P

I totally agree with you in principle. And a priority should be given to establishing reliable, consistent, fair, LEGAL, avenues for immigration. But what concerns me is the overall size of the wave we are talking about. This wave of Latino immigration is as large as all the previous waves (Irish, Italian, etc) combined.

England's a perfect example of what I worry about. Labour Party docs that were leaked form the 80s show that they were explicitly working on loosening immigration controls to ensure future voting blocs - precisely what the Left here is seeking to do. Many years and millions of immigrants later, England has given every job created in that time to immigrants, so their employment has remained stagnant. And British culture - where is it? Where are the monty pythons, young ones, absolutely fabulouses, and fawlty towers? There's nothing "uniquely British" anymore, it seems. They traded their prosperity and identity for a Labour lock on power.

Can't immigration be a danger to one's culture and economy simply because of the un-regulated size of it?

My culture is within me. I'd sell my stuff to men from Mars. The Brits hit the skids a long time ago. Why worry about them now?

--Brant

[sjw]

One might argue for a right to defend national borders against those who would use the power of government (via voting for example) to violate the rights of fellow citizens. And one might further argue for kicking anyone out who does the same. And then I woke up.

Shayne

[geekgirl]

My culture is within me. I'd sell my stuff to men from Mars. The Brits hit the skids a long time ago. Why worry about them now?

--Brant

If you have any culture in you, it has been put there by the creative works and actions of other people. Culture, by it's nature and definition, requires more than one person. Its a collaborative effort. The culture - the social environment that surrounds you - largely defines the direction of growth of the individuals in it. The quickest way to destroy (or re-build) a country is through its culture. To think it of so little importance as to defend (or even, recognize) is a little short-sighted.

[Jonathan David Leavitt]

This "oh, the pooer Mexicans" is baloney. Why stop there, hmm? Why not the 5 BILLION others who are in bad situations and would LOVE to come here? It's like religion, once you let it loose in your mind, there's no limit to how far it will go, or what it will destroy. Mex's problems are not our problems, let THEM solve them, THERE, I say. So we have to invent fruit and veggie picking machines, and pay Americans a decent wage to run them, so what? So we have to pay 2-3x as much for produce, so what? It's probably a whole 1k a year, and the illegals cost MORE than that, with all their "loads" upon law enforcement, education and medical care. Even if the cost was a direct increase, why not just pay it, to get the reduction in overcrowding, pollution, etc?

The real issue, IMO, is not defending borders but defending the States from election fraud. The "Democrat" party wants to pack the polls with non-Americans who vote for their candidates because their vote is purchased with freebies.

[BaalChatzaf]

May I recommend that you read -Camp of the Saints-

See:

http://www.amazon.com/Camp-Saints-Jean-Raspail/dp/1881780074/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1294134348&sr=1-1

for a precise of the book on Amazon.

Ba'al Chatzaf

[bmacwilliam]

And British culture - where is it? Where are the monty pythons, young ones, absolutely fabulouses, and fawlty towers? There's nothing "uniquely British" anymore, it seems.

Two words - Little Britain - great show.

[william.scherk]

May I recommend that you read -Camp of the Saints-

Here is one paragraph from an English translation of Raspail's opus:

To appreciate the scope of Dio’s power, we could look to a hundred examples. One will suffice: the Saint-Favier swimming-pool scandal. Saint-Favier is a dull, sleepy town stuck away in the Jura, that decided one day to indulge its wild fancy and present itself with a gift sure to rouse an industrious populace lulled by the pipemaker’s lathes. Namely, a swimming pool. Olympic, Hiltonesque, covered in the winter, basking in mountain sun in the summer, a billionaire’s pool on a communal scale, a fabulous toy for the people, democratic to a fault, and always jam-packed (God knows how those French love the water!) … Well, it just so happened that, in one of the weekly analyses required by law, a lab technician discovered a troop of bacteria—gonococci, to be precise—living on a corner of the metal plate marked “Saint-Favier Municipal Swimming Pool,” happy as could be with their new surroundings, and, in a word, thriving. So well, in fact, that the hospital, much to the doctors’ disbelief and indignation, found itself treating three youngsters with ophthalmic gonorrhea: two girls and a boy—not even related—and one of whom, it should be noted, was a pupil with the Sisters of Perpetual Help. Now, in France, no schooltot does anything much with her eyes but open them wide, agog at the wonders of the world. There had to be an explanation. And it soon came to light in the files of the hospital, the national health plan, and the factory infirmary, where the records showed that a thousand Arabs—first-rate workers notwithstanding, and socially accepted if not socially absorbed—had been showing up time after time, to the tune of some ten percent, with the aftermaths of a stubborn case of North African clap. To be utterly fair and unbiased, the authorities proceeded to check through the files of all the Jura natives too. A time-consuming task, but one which the West, personified there in Saint-Favier, felt obliged to perform in the worthy effort to subdue its prejudices. The result, unhappily, merely confirmed them. They turned up a total of two rich young brats, both terribly spoiled, who wouldn’t have dreamed of using the public pooi, and one dirty old derelict, who never bathed and didn’t know how to swim. What a blow for the poor town fathers! Such fine folk, too, these laborers, pensioners, railroaders, politicized peasants, placing their leftist ballots in the box, like Eucharists laid on the communion plate, and scratching their chins, deep in thought … One of them, a delegate from the Communist trade-union party, in a highly emotional search through his papers, brought out a mimeographed document proving that the Arabs were essential to the economic well-being of the nation, and that the sudden resurgence of racism had to be nipped in the bud. Of course, they all agreed. The point was well taken. They were all for the worldwide solidarity of the masses. But still! If their kids’ eyes were going to catch the clap, after all—and in their nice new pool, to boot, that they scrimped their pennies together to pay for—and a dose like you wouldn’t pick up from some army-camp whore, well, Arabs or not, they couldn’t just let the thing get out of hand, and besides, doesn’t everyone know it’s an Arab disease? … The fine folk believed it was only common sense to vote as they did, and to reach their unanimous decision: namely, that thereafter the only Arabs to use the municipal swimming pool at Saint-Favier would be those with a medical certificate proving that they had no contagious diseases that might be spread by water. The decree was posted at the entrance to the pool, and in all the Arab cafés and haunts in town. It was, in fact, rather clumsily worded. But that’s hardly a surprise. In times when a spade has ceased to be called a spade, it’s no wonder that thirty-two town fathers—each one a family man, but none with an excess of schooling—should let themselves be trapped by the subtleties of language. … Dio rubbed his hands with glee, and proceeded to use the Saint-Favier edict as his cover of the week, spread over the newsstands in all its glory (by ultracapitalist distributors, no less), with a big title splashed across, proclaiming: “Anti-Arab Racism Alive and Well!” Six hundred thousand copies. Rather hard to miss! … In Paris, His Excellency the Algerian ambassador demanded an audience and got it on the spot. The North African press let loose volleys of hate, and the French press picked up the tune, albeit in a minor key. Somewhere there was even the observation that plenty of Frenchwomen jumped into bed with those poor, slandered Arabs, without once insisting to see their bill of health. … Retaliation took many forms. Oil, for example, was an issue again, as three tankers returned bone dry. And a hundred nice French girls, teaching school in Algeria, were suddenly hauled into the hospital and spread on the stirrups to be plumbed and explored by a squad of medical student commandos, whipped up to a frenzy. Two of them died as a result, but the inquest didn’t last. On his minister’s orders, the prefect of the Jura quickly reversed the Saint-Favier decree, first for certain technical flaws, and also for its breach of human rights. Dio was exultant, crowing his triumph in one of his best editorials. Because, when all was said and done, he was right. And any time that man was right—which he often was, since he chose his pretexts with diabolical skill—the walls of the ancient citadel were sure to crumble. So the Arabs of SaintFavier returned en masse to the pool, victorious. And they had it all to themselves. No townsfolk were seen there again. There wasn’t even talk about building another one, separate from the first. What would be the sense? … And all at once whole sections of New York are deserted, a score of American cities watch the flight to the suburbs—and half the historic Paris pavement too—American tots in their integrated schools fall five years behind, tubercular Gauls flee in droves from our open-air clinics. … Tally-ho! Tally-ho! Just listen to that battering ram smash at the southern gate!

[pippi]

The real issue, IMO, is not defending borders but defending the States from election fraud. The "Democrat" party wants to pack the polls with non-Americans who vote for their candidates because their vote is purchased with freebies.

Why isn't citizenship required to vote in some states?

I see some states ask for ID but that doesnt necessarily follow that they have to be citizens.

Edited January 5, 2011 by pippi