Jesse Ventura: 911 Pentagon Attack

[sjw]

They censored a previous episode of his, this one is much more powerful, so watch it while it's still available:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TrZ14NRbT-s

Shayne

[George H. Smith]

I could only make it through the first 20 minutes of this video. It's the same junk theory that has been spread around for years, packaged in a hyper-dramatic, sound-bite format.

Hani Hanjour, the hijacker who piloted Flight 77, supposedly wasn't skilled enough to hit the Pentagon, but he somehow managed to synchronize the plane with a missile, flying directly above it and then pulling up at the last minute while the missile hit. Flight 77 and its passengers then disappeared into the Twilight Zone.

What a load of BS.

Ghs

[sjw]

I could only make it through the first 20 minutes of this video. It's the same junk theory that has been spread around for years, packaged in a hyper-dramatic, sound-bite format.

Hani Hanjour, the hijacker who piloted Flight 77, supposedly wasn't skilled enough to hit the Pentagon, but he somehow managed to synchronize the plane with a missile, flying directly above it and then pulling up at the last minute while the missile hit. Flight 77 and its passengers then disappeared into the Twilight Zone.

What a load of BS.

Ghs

Individuals are routinely convicted in American courts on less evidence than Ventura provided. For some reason people are highly skeptical when individuals say they are innocent, but just take it for granted that the government is. It is interesting that an anarchist would have this same problem.

Why doesn't the government release all the tapes? Why would they hide evidence of that kind if there wasn't something to hide? Clearly either they are not trustworthy or they do not want us to trust them. I don't see why it would be the latter.

Shayne

[Brant Gaede]

JV was a professional wrestler and they act and lie beefing things up as much as possible. This is just more of the same.

--Brant

[sjw]

JV was a professional wrestler and they act and lie beefing things up as much as possible. This is just more of the same.

--Brant

This is just ad hominem. Where are the tapes? Why wasn't there a full investigation? Why was the testimony of any witness who contradicted the government's story ignored? Why isn't WTC 7 in the report? What in the hell is this about?

If you want to support rule of law, you have to support a proper investigation, one that doesn't leave inconvenient facts out. This isn't about what particular conclusion is true, it's about government being accountable to the rule of law.

Shayne

Edited December 18, 2010 by sjw

[Brant Gaede]

There are people who think the WTC towers were brought down by explosives inside the buildings.

JV has no testimony and would not be accepted as a witness in any rational court of law. Ad hominem that.

--Brant

[sjw]

There are people who think the WTC towers were brought down by explosives inside the buildings.

JV has no testimony and would not be accepted as a witness in any rational court of law. Ad hominem that.

--Brant

What utter illogic. JV is not the witness, he's the prosecutor.

Why hide the tapes?

Oh, and also, why hide the tapes?

Shayne

[Brant Gaede]

There are people who think the WTC towers were brought down by explosives inside the buildings.

JV has no testimony and would not be accepted as a witness in any rational court of law. Ad hominem that.

--Brant

What utter illogic. JV is not the witness, he's the prosecutor.

Why hide the tapes?

Oh, and also, why hide the tapes?

Shayne

Then we have a prosecutor's brief, but he isn't even a lawyer.

--Brant

[sjw]

Then we have a prosecutor's brief, but he isn't even a lawyer.

--Brant

So now you want a state-sanctioned lawyer to tell you what to think. Pathetic.

And here's some other questions for you to evade:

How were those cell phone calls made?

And also, how were those cell phone calls made?

And if you get around to it, how were those cell phone calls made?

Shayne

[George H. Smith]

I could only make it through the first 20 minutes of this video. It's the same junk theory that has been spread around for years, packaged in a hyper-dramatic, sound-bite format.

Hani Hanjour, the hijacker who piloted Flight 77, supposedly wasn't skilled enough to hit the Pentagon, but he somehow managed to synchronize the plane with a missile, flying directly above it and then pulling up at the last minute while the missile hit. Flight 77 and its passengers then disappeared into the Twilight Zone.

What a load of BS.

Ghs

Individuals are routinely convicted in American courts on less evidence than Ventura provided.

Oh, please.... Ventura interviewed some guy who was at LAX and heard some radio transmissions about a missile, a NASA engineer who witnessed nothing but who claims a priori that a plane could not have caused the damage (just as planes supposedly could not have caused the destruction of the Twin Towers), and on and on. Moreover, in a court we have cross-examination and counter witnesses and experts. Read the eyewitness testimonies. Over 100 saw Flight 77 just before it hit and many saw it crash, in contrast to 3 or 4 who said they thought it was a missile. And no one reported seeing both a plane and a missile. Moreover, remnants of the plane were in fact seen by many people and photographed by reporters.

For some reason people are highly skeptical when individuals say they are innocent, but just take it for granted that the government is. It is interesting that an anarchist would have this same problem.

Yes, I am an anarchist, but I am not brain-dead. I also don't believe that the U.S. government deliberately planted AIDS in inner cities to wipe out the black population, nor do I believe that it blew up the levees in New Orleans during Hurricane Katrina to get rid of minorities, nor do I believe that LBJ orchestrated a conspiracy to kill Kennedy, nor do I believe that NASA faked the moon landings.

I do believe, however, that the U.S. government displayed massive incompetence before and during 9/11 and later attempted to cover-up that incompetence.

Why doesn't the government release all the tapes? Why would they hide evidence of that kind if there wasn't something to hide? Clearly either they are not trustworthy or they do not want us to trust them. I don't see why it would be the latter.

There is one tape (maybe two -- I don't recall offhand) that does in fact show a plane crashing into the Pentagon.

I debated a Truther a couple years ago online, during which I spent considerable time researching this controversy. That exchange proved as pointless as my recent exchanges with a Creationist. Every bit of counter-evidence against the conspiracy theory -- and there is a ton of it -- was explained away as even more evidence of a conspiracy. (The government obviously got to the eyewitnesses, the photographed remnants of the plane were planted, etc., etc.)

According to one variant of the 9-11 conspiracy theory, no planes at all crashed into the Twin Towers. (You can find the relevant video "evidence" on YouTube.) The videos of the second plane hitting were in fact pre-fabricated holographic images. Thus not only thousands of government employees but every media outlet as well were involved the conspiracy.

What? Are you skeptical? But I thought you were a critic of the U.S. government! How odd.

Anyway, I don't want to waste any more time discussing the details of this bullshit. People can research the subject for themselves.

Ghs

[Brant Gaede]

Then we have a prosecutor's brief, but he isn't even a lawyer.

--Brant

So now you want a state-sanctioned lawyer to tell you what to think. Pathetic.

And here's some other questions for you to evade:

How were those cell phone calls made?

And also, how were those cell phone calls made?

And if you get around to it, how were those cell phone calls made?

Shayne

Think? What does Hollywood bs with an actor mouthpiece have to do with thinking?

--Brant

[sjw]

I do believe, however, that the U.S. government displayed massive incompetence before and during 9/11 and later attempted to cover-up that incompetence.

This is the main point that I'm trying to make -- that they are covering something up. Everything else is inessential details compared to this.

I don't believe any particular theory, whether it be the 9/11 conspiracy theories or the government's own Muslim conspiracy theory (the hijackers were mostly Saudis!). The issue here is due process. The purposeful violation of due process by government means that much evil is possibly being hidden by them, therefore I'm not going to lightly dismiss theories that go contrary to the government's theory.

It's very naive and dangerous to think that big cover ups aren't possible. And worse, it entirely misses the point. Which is due process.

Shayne

[sjw]

9/11 Truth is always defamed as being about conspiracy theories. It's not. It's about due process. It's about having a proper investigation of all relevant facts. It's about not trusting government just because they say so, which is really just another way of saying that it's about being a good American.

Shayne

[Brant Gaede]

I do believe, however, that the U.S. government displayed massive incompetence before and during 9/11 and later attempted to cover-up that incompetence.

This is the main point that I'm trying to make -- that they are covering something up. Everything else is inessential details compared to this.

I don't believe any particular theory, whether it be the 9/11 conspiracy theories or the government's own Muslim conspiracy theory (the hijackers were mostly Saudis!). The issue here is due process. The purposeful violation of due process by government means that much evil is possibly being hidden by them, therefore I'm not going to lightly dismiss theories that go contrary to the government's theory.

It's very naive and dangerous to think that big cover ups aren't possible. And worse, it entirely misses the point. Which is due process.

Shayne

I'll certainly go along with this. And that creep Cheney--take him out with a stick.

--Brant

[George H. Smith]

JV was a professional wrestler and they act and lie beefing things up as much as possible. This is just more of the same.

--Brant

This is just ad hominem. Where are the tapes? Why wasn't there a full investigation? Why was the testimony of any witness who contradicted the government's story ignored? Why isn't WTC 7 in the report? What in the hell is this about?

It's probably about the fact that Cheney didn't want it widely known that he gave a stand-down order. This should come as no surprise.

Who knows why the government is withholding some of the tapes. Why do they keep lots of stuff secret? It's stupid -- and that's par for the course.

Btw, some "moderate" conspiracy theorists admit that the missile/Pentagon story is positively kooky, even by their standards. They claim that the government wants to stoke this obviously absurd feature of the conspiracy theory in order to discredit every other conspiracy theory. Hence the government will not release tapes that would put an end to this controversy because it wants to keep this aspect of the controversy alive.

Following this line of reasoning, we can conclude that Ventura, in pushing the most ridiculous aspect of the conspiracy theory, is in fact working with the government in an effort to discredit more reasonable conspiracy theories.

Now that is a conspiracy theory.

Ghs

[sjw]

It's probably about the fact that Cheney didn't want it widely known that he gave a stand-down order. This should come as no surprise.

Who knows why the government is withholding some of the tapes. Why do they keep lots of stuff secret? It's stupid -- and that's par for the course.

As I said, it's naive and dangerous to automatically assume that the only possible explanation is bumbling keystone cops. Something sinister might be up. We need a real investigation to find out.

Following this line of reasoning, we can conclude that Ventura, in pushing the most ridiculous aspect of the conspiracy theory, is in fact working with the government in an effort to discredit more reasonable conspiracy theories.

Now that is a conspiracy theory.

Note who this kind of argument is aimed at: brainwashed morons. This kind of ad hominem attack would not work with intelligent informed people. Considering the demographics, you could very well be right.

Shayne

[sjw]

Following this line of reasoning, we can conclude that Ventura, in pushing the most ridiculous aspect of the conspiracy theory, is in fact working with the government in an effort to discredit more reasonable conspiracy theories.

Now that is a conspiracy theory.

Note who this kind of argument is aimed at: brainwashed morons. This kind of ad hominem attack would not work with intelligent informed people. Considering the demographics, you could very well be right.

Shayne

On the other hand the government has started censoring Ventura's shows. His Police State video is no longer available except as pirated YouTube copies. Who knows how long those will be available.

Shayne

[sjw]

Leiberman says that WTC 7 did not fall:

http://www.prisonplanet.com/911-joe-lieberman-wtc-7-did-not-occur-i-do-not-support-a-new-investigation.html

I wonder how many Americans actually know about building 7? Or the fact that its fall was reported about a half hour before it actually happened.

Shayne

[George H. Smith]

Leiberman says that WTC 7 did not fall:

http://www.prisonplanet.com/911-joe-lieberman-wtc-7-did-not-occur-i-do-not-support-a-new-investigation.html

I wonder how many Americans actually know about building 7? Or the fact that its fall was reported about a half hour before it actually happened.

Shayne

So reporters were in on the conspiracy as well? I watched an early BBC report. The on-site reporter emphasized that the details were confusing and tentative.

Firefighters were evactuated from WTC 7 around 2 hours before the collapse because of signs of an impending collapse. Reports of this could have easily gotten muddled in transmission, as anyone who watched the events unfold as they happened will appreciate.

From the Wiki article:

As the North Tower collapsed on September 11, 2001, heavy debris hit 7 World Trade Center, causing damage to the south face of the building.[4] The bottom portion of the building's south face was damaged by debris, including damage to the southwest corner from the 8th to 18th floors, a large vertical gash on the center-bottom extending at least ten floors, and other damage as high as the 18th floor.[4] The building was equipped with a sprinkler system, but had many single-point vulnerabilities for failure: the sprinkler system required manual initiation of the electrical fire pumps, rather than being a fully automatic system; the floor-level controls had a single connection to the sprinkler water riser; and the sprinkler system required some power for the fire pump to deliver water. Also, water pressure was low, with little or no water to feed sprinklers.[27][28]

After the North Tower collapsed, some firefighters entered 7 World Trade Center to search the building. They attempted to extinguish small pockets of fire, but low water pressure hindered their efforts.[29] Fires burned into the afternoon on the 11th and 12th floors of 7 World Trade Center, the flames visible on the east side of the building.[30][31] During the afternoon, fire was also seen on floors 6–10, 13–14, 19–22, and 29–30.[4] In particular, the fires on floors 7 through 9 and 11 through 13 continued to burn out of control during the afternoon.[32] At approximately 2:00 p.m., firefighters noticed a bulge in the southwest corner of 7 World Trade Center between the 10th and 13th floors, a sign that the building was unstable and might collapse.[33] During the afternoon, firefighters also heard creaking sounds coming from the building.[34] Around 3:30 pm FDNY Chief Daniel Nigro decided to halt rescue operations, surface removal, and searches along the surface of the debris near 7 World Trade Center and evacuate the area due to concerns for the safety of personnel.[35] At 5:20:33 p.m. EDT on September 11, 2001, 7 World Trade Center started to collapse, with the crumble of the east mechanical penthouse, while at 5:21:10 p.m. EDT the entire building collapsed completely.

...

In its progress report, NIST released a video and still-photo analysis of 7 World Trade Center before its collapse that appears to indicate a greater degree of structural damage from falling debris than originally assumed by FEMA. Specifically, NIST's interim report on 7 World Trade Center displays photographs of the southwest facade of the building that show it to have significant damage. The report also highlights a 10-story gash in the center of the south facade, toward the bottom, extending approximately a quarter of the way into the interior.[4][40] A unique aspect of the design of 7 World Trade Center was that each outer structural column was responsible for supporting 2,000 sq ft (186 m²) of floor space, suggesting that the simultaneous removal of a number of columns severely compromised the structure's integrity.[41] Consistent with this theory, news footage shows cracking and bowing of the building's east wall immediately before the collapse, which began at the penthouse floors.[4] In video of the collapse, taken from the north by CBS News and other news media, the first visible sign of collapse is movement in the east penthouse 8.2 seconds before the north wall began to collapse, which took at least another 7 seconds.[4][42]

The working hypothesis, released in the June 2004 progress report and reiterated in a June 2007 status update, was that an initial failure in a critical column occurred below the 13th floor, caused by damage from fire and/or debris from the collapse of the two main towers. The collapse progressed vertically up to the east mechanical penthouse. The interior structure was unable to handle the redistributed load, resulting in horizontal progression of the failure across lower floors, particularly the 5th to 7th floors. This resulted in "a disproportionate collapse of the entire structure."[4][39][43]

On August 21, 2008, NIST released its draft report on the causes of the collapse of 7 World Trade Center, beginning a period for public comments.[32] In its investigation, NIST utilized ANSYS to model events leading up to collapse initiation and LS-DYNA models to simulate the global response to the initiating events.[44] NIST determined that diesel fuel did not play an important role, nor did the structural damage from the collapse of the twin towers. But the lack of water to fight the fire was an important factor. The fires burned out of control during the afternoon, including on floor 13, where a critical interior column buckled. With the buckling of that column, adjacent columns also failed along with the floor structure above. This triggered a vertical progression of floor failures to the roof. The collapse then progressed east-to-west across the structure, and ultimately the entire structure collapsed. The fires, fueled by office contents, along with the lack of water, were the key reasons for the collapse.[45]

Ghs

[sjw]

So reporters were in on the conspiracy as well?

That'd be about the silliest possible interpretation. In today's world, reporters usually get their information from government officials. So if one wanted to push this conspiracy clearly you'd do it from that angle.

As I said, I don't have an axe to grind on particular conspiracy theories. I want to see due process and a full investigation pursuing every possible angle and leaving no relevant fact unaccounted for.

Shayne

[Jonathan]

I wonder how many Americans actually know about building 7? Or the fact that its fall was reported about a half hour before it actually happened.

I wonder how many Americans know that Dewey was reported to have defeated Truman in '48, but that Truman then used his powers to reverse the election results and make himself the winner, and then, after he saw how easy it was to get away with stuff like that, he started planning 9/11.

J

[sjw]

The on-site reporter emphasized that the details were confusing and tentative.

This is a lame excuse. It's not hard to know that a skyscraper fell down or not. I'd like to know what precisely caused the reporter to claim that building 7 came down. The reporter should have been questioned. A real investigation would have asked her. It's simple due diligence in detective work.

Here's another question. Why was the crime scene so quickly destroyed and sent to China? Shouldn't there have been a full metallurgical etc. examination first? What about the scientific studies that have found thermite in WTC dust? Why wasn't that dust analyzed from the beginning, by independent labs? Why wasn't the metal examined? I.e. why wasn't the crime scene treated like a crime scene?

Shayne

[George H. Smith]

So reporters were in on the conspiracy as well?

That'd be about the silliest possible interpretation. In today's world, reporters usually get their information from government officials. So if one wanted to push this conspiracy clearly you'd do it from that angle.

As I said, I don't have an axe to grind on particular conspiracy theories. I want to see due process and a full investigation pursuing every possible angle and leaving no relevant fact unaccounted for.

Shayne

If you don't have an axe to grind, then why are you posting garbage-can points about WTC 7?

Let me get this straight: The U.S. government manages to pull off, virtually without a flaw, the most complicated conspiracy in the history of humankind. And then, for some incomprehensible reason, some conspirator in the government tells reporters that WTC 7 collapsed 30 minutes before the charges went off, even though onlookers could see that it was still standing. Now that makes a hell of a lot of sense, doesn't it?

You are not helping the chances for a "full investigation" by mixing your demand with this lunatic bullshit.

Ghs

[sjw]

If you don't have an axe to grind, then why are you posting garbage-can points about WTC 7?

If you don't have an axe to grind, why do you fixate on things you think you can easily refute? You found a wiki article suggesting an explanation. Congrats. I could probably find articles refuting that article. We could do this ad nauseam but the fundamental fact remains that no actual investigation happened.

Let me get this straight: The U.S. government manages to pull off, virtually without a flaw, the most complicated conspiracy in the history of humankind. And then, for some incomprehensible reason, some conspirator in the government tells reporters that WTC 7 collapsed 30 minutes before the charges went off, even though onlookers could see that it was still standing. Now that makes a hell of a lot of sense, doesn't it?

It makes more sense than your theory. If you don't have an axe to grind why do you pick the stupidest possible theory to shoot down?

So what if it would be the most complicated conspiracy ever. Humans are getting more and more sophisticated, it wouldn't in and of itself be a shock, on the contrary, we should expect ever more sophisticated crime as technology and knowledge becomes more and more refined.

You are not helping the chances for a "full investigation" by mixing your demand with this lunatic bullshit.

Ghs

Appeal to morons. There must be a logical fallacy for this. I'm sure you know the formal name.

Shayne

[william.scherk]

On the other hand the government has started censoring Ventura's shows. His Police State video is no longer available except as pirated YouTube copies. Who knows how long those will be available.

FEMA DEATH CAMPS !!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N31mx1mmtkA

This is the CENSORED video OMG !! But the Gummint is moving to remove it !! Hurry !!

Edited December 18, 2010 by william.scherk