The Crisis in Physics—and Its Cause

[Selene]

I really don't understand your attacks on RHS. He makes valid arguments. I didn't see any arguments against the content of his post. All I see are petty threats and ad hominems.

Clearly because he did not use the "reply" or quote function.

[caroljane]

I really don't understand your attacks on RHS. He makes valid arguments. I didn't see any arguments against the content of his post. All I see are petty threats and ad hominems.

Clearly because he did not use the "reply" or quote function.

The Garbage Pile - gnawed bones - D avid Harriman- just when I thought it was safe again (moan)

[anthony]

I really don't understand your attacks on RHS. He makes valid arguments. I didn't see any arguments against the content of his post. All I see are petty threats and ad hominems.

Tony - was the post you quoted from this thread? I know MSK said he threw a post in the garbage pile....

Yes, must have been, Aristo. I haven't yet got the hang of importing posts (how about, "cross-threading" - could this be a new web-term? Ah, prob'ly not.)

"The smell of urine is offensive" raised my ire. It was uncalled for, he'd been engaged quite politely, and I was likely in a bad temper that day.

I remember all my rants - they still embarrass me. Thanks so much for bringing it up.

Tony

[basimpson22]

I really don't understand your attacks on RHS. He makes valid arguments. I didn't see any arguments against the content of his post. All I see are petty threats and ad hominems.

Tony - was the post you quoted from this thread? I know MSK said he threw a post in the garbage pile....

Yes, must have been, Aristo. I haven't yet got the hang of importing posts (how about, "cross-threading" - could this be a new web-term? Ah, prob'ly not.)

"The smell of urine is offensive" raised my ire. It was uncalled for, he'd been engaged quite politely, and I was likely in a bad temper that day.

I remember all my rants - they still embarrass me. Thanks so much for bringing it up.

Tony

Ah yes, mindless rants are a regretful thing. I've had a couple of my own throughout my short history on OL. I'm even guilty of a little cross-threading as well.

To RHS: you have a good mind superfly. If only you could present your ideas in a more objective fashion.

Edited April 7, 2011 by Aristocrates

[anthony]

Ah yes, mindless rants are a regretful thing. I've had a couple of my own throughout my short history on OL. I'm even guilty of a little cross-threading as well.

To RHS: you have a good mind superfly. If only you could present your ideas in a more objective fashion.

Mindless rants? Moi? No, not completely. Sometimes a little superfluous, and even slightly unfair, is all.

Now, I enjoy good minds, and often marvel at the calibre Objectivism attracts. There are youngsters on the forums who are thinking deeply at an age I was interested only in girls.

But, OTOH, I have personally known people whose good minds have far outstripped their character. Or, are not conscious of any bigger picture outside of their quite narrow subject range. Or, who have mastered logic, but are scarily irrational. Or, who use their superior mind as a club to beat others over the head.

Haven't you found this, Aristocrates?

Could be a 'mind-body split' in all those instances, but I reckon it is "Handsome is, as handsome does."

Tony

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

I really don't understand your attacks on RHS. He makes valid arguments. I didn't see any arguments against the content of his post.

Aristocrates,

Are you kidding me?

This idiot shows up out of nowhere and says he can't stand to be here because it smells like piss--and makes a few sundry digs against Objectivsts in general for gravy--and you want people to take him seriously?

I don't know how it is in your house, but in mine that ain't gonna happen.

Ever.

Frankly, after that, I'm not interested in anything this dude has to say. There are far too many people in the world to waste my time on someone who behaves like that.

And there's more. I would never do something like that if I were in your house--or his.

Michael

[basimpson22]

Ah yes, mindless rants are a regretful thing. I've had a couple of my own throughout my short history on OL. I'm even guilty of a little cross-threading as well.

To RHS: you have a good mind superfly. If only you could present your ideas in a more objective fashion.

Mindless rants? Moi? No, not completely. Sometimes a little superfluous, and even slightly unfair, is all.

Now, I enjoy good minds, and often marvel at the calibre Objectivism attracts. There are youngsters on the forums who are thinking deeply at an age I was interested only in girls.

But, OTOH, I have personally known people whose good minds have far outstripped their character. Or, are not conscious of any bigger picture outside of their quite narrow subject range. Or, who have mastered logic, but are scarily irrational. Or, who use their superior mind as a club to beat others over the head.

Haven't you found this, Aristocrates?

Could be a 'mind-body split' in all those instances, but I reckon it is "Handsome is, as handsome does."

Tony

Well, mindless was directed more toward myself. Also, I thought mindless rants just sounded like a good way to put it. How mindless of me.

Have I found this? Well, I'm cautious to say what I've found. There are numerous tactics on OL I've found absurd but naming them would be the same as naming the posters. I'm trying to practice a little diplomacy . I notice that you sorta rebuked RHS for his lack of diplomacy and RHS lacking diplomacy is a fair evaluation. I will say that I have really been crushed one time, by one of the great minds here on OL. He really is a great mind. I was eager about the subject of a certain thread he had posted and replied in an informal/conversational manner. Well, reading his response back was like hearing a great sighhhhh. I'm thinking well sorry for not spontaneously having the knowledge required for a PHD on the subject. So I guess my answer afterall is YES, I have found this.

[basimpson22]

MSK! How have you been? Well, I wasn't referring to his piss post. I was referring to the one in this particular thread. I thought he made good points although he definitely could have taken a more objective approach. He said it smells like piss. Well, I think, as Tony pointed out, that he was making a silly reference to pissy attitudes. Also, I think we could learn from Tony. He admitted that his reply was a little anger-filled. He's been able to move on from his anger with RHS. And here we are(Tony and I) typing pleasant posts to one another void of rhetorical questions or name-calling. Maybe RHS is guilty of these kinds of tactics but I believe the senior members of OL should be well beyond resorting to these adolescent exercises.

EDIT: I have respect for you as a founding member of OL and I can see where you are coming from. I understand the need to some extent, of filtering out the garbage. But you have to dispose of it in the proper way. Instead of burying the garbage it seems you'd rather sit it on a hilltop and light it on fire.

EDIT: Who are you defending? "Objectivists" or yourself. I believe the defense of "Objectivists" would qualify as altruistic behavior.

Edited April 8, 2011 by Aristocrates

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Aristocrates,

I am not just a founding member of OL. I am the owner (along with Kat).

This forum is private property.

It is open to the public--sort of like a business establishment that has a membership arrangement, Except Kat and I provide membership to folks free of charge.

We get some donations from time to time, and there is a small amount of ads, but other than that, we pay for this place.

Michael.

[anthony]

Well, mindless was directed more toward myself. Also, I thought mindless rants just sounded like a good way to put it. How mindless of me.

Have I found this? Well, I'm cautious to say what I've found. There are numerous tactics on OL I've found absurd but naming them would be the same as naming the posters. I'm trying to practice a little diplomacy .

Aristo,

I knew full well you were aiming at your self, but I was 'taking the mickey' about rants, generally.

But you did get my point that I've learned to treat intelligence in context of the entire human being? On its own, without grounding, a good mind CAN be a detriment to itself. (And others.)

No, I wasn't thinking of OL'ers when I wrote earlier; all we can do is roughly speculate about other posters' 'real' characters.

My comments on how good minds are used and abused are based upon people I've known well, myself included.

BTW, I like your enthusiasm and sincerity, if you don't mind me saying.

Tony

Edited April 8, 2011 by whYNOT

[Philip Coates]

> I will say that I have really been crushed one time, by one of the great minds here on OL. He really is a great mind. I was eager about the subject of a certain thread he had posted and replied in an informal/conversational manner. Well, reading his response back was like hearing a great sighhhhh. I'm thinking well sorry for not spontaneously having the knowledge required for a PHD on the subject. [Aristocrates, post 107]

My approach when this happens to me is I just don't take it personally. I knew Leonard Peikoff for over fifteen years in New York City and Southern California. Brilliant man. But he could cut you down like a scissors. I can't count the number of times he responded to a question of mine with a pained look or a deep sigh "YESSSS, Phil....." But if someone thinks I am way behind them in knowledge in an area where they are very advanced, so what? In some cases maybe I am. Or maybe not. In the case of Peikoff I learned -enormously- by putting aside my ego and not attending too much to what he thought about me or if it could someday have been a more knowledgeable question. HIs knowledge of many subjects was massive and impressive. (I can always disagree with some of it, once I've thought it through, but needed very much to be a sponge for all those years and learn what he had to offer - whether in a small group at his place or in a huge lecture hall.)

> a good mind CAN be a detriment to itself. [Whynot, post 110]

One thing I learned as a teacher is you can't focus on the distance between your knowledge and someone else's and view that as a negative or with contempt. You didn't always know a fraction of what you know, and it takes an enormously long time to travel an enormously long distance.

[anthony]

> a good mind CAN be a detriment to itself. [Whynot, post 110]

One thing I learned as a teacher is you can't focus on the distance between your knowledge and someone else's and view that as a negative or with contempt. You didn't always know a fraction of what you know, and it takes an enormously long time to travel an enormously long distance.

Phil,

I take your point, but I don't think you understand mine.

The very thing I am not talking about is relative knowledge - making comparisons between one's own mind, and an other's. It's a losing proposition, as well as an irrational one: there are always greater minds, or greater knowledge, out there.

I have never accepted that life is about endlessly competing intellects. I agree it is only about journeying to your own highest level.(And enjoying the ride )

Isn't it evident to you though that some, or many, 'good minds' lack some essential ingredients of character - like benevolence, integrity, and independence? In which case they are simply good brains, imo. That's not contempt, it is an identification of reality.

(Good account of your early experiences with LP, by the way.)

Tony

[Philip Coates]

> Isn't it evident to you though that some, or many, 'good minds' lack some essential ingredients of character - like benevolence, integrity, and independence? In which case they are simply good brains, imo. That's not contempt, it is an identification of reality.

Tony, I absolutely agree. Sometimes they "rode the horse that brought them", gave them smooth sailing, was rewarded, allowed them to coast on those laurels. And never realized they needed to develop other traits. It's analogous to people who developed encyclopedic knowledge of Objectivism or Rand's statements and shut themselves off from developing knowledge in other areas.

(Personally, I tend to prefer to know people who may not necessarily be 'great minds', but are nice people or well rounded in terms of character, personality, etc.)

Edited April 8, 2011 by Philip Coates

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

I understand the need to some extent, of filtering out the garbage. But you have to dispose of it in the proper way. Instead of burying the garbage it seems you'd rather sit it on a hilltop and light it on fire.

Aristocrates,

When people consistently post garbage, they are trying to get attention.

I merely provide a proper platform for it.

Believe it or not, when I started doing it that way, it cut waaaaaaaaay down on the consistent garbage being posted.

Trolls only like it when they can spoil stuff in public for productive folks. They hate it when their efforts go into a special troll corner and they can't spoil anything. Often, they just go away and seek easier targets.

Here is a non-solicited piece of advice in communicating with people you say you respect. (This isn't based on your last post, except maybe to a light extent, but on several others I have seen you make.) Don't start out by telling them what they think and what they have to do. Tend more to your own thinking and acts, then trade ideas and observations on that basis. You will find that you can even disagree well that way and go into long discussions.

This is, of course, if you want to gain their respect. If you don't mind being blown off, keep being gratuitously sassy and bossy.

Michael

[basimpson22]

I understand the need to some extent, of filtering out the garbage. But you have to dispose of it in the proper way. Instead of burying the garbage it seems you'd rather sit it on a hilltop and light it on fire.

Aristocrates,

When people consistently post garbage, they are trying to get attention.

I merely provide a proper platform for it.

Believe it or not, when I started doing it that way, it cut waaaaaaaaay down on the consistent garbage being posted.

Trolls only like it when they can spoil stuff in public for productive folks. They hate it when their efforts go into a special troll corner and they can't spoil anything. Often, they just go away and seek easier targets.

Here is a non-solicited piece of advice in communicating with people you say you respect. (This isn't based on your last post, except maybe to a light extent, but on several others I have seen you make.) Don't start out by telling them what they think and what they have to do. Tend more to your own thinking and acts, then trade ideas and observations on that basis. You will find that you can even disagree well that way and go into long discussions.

This is, of course, if you want to gain their respect. If you don't mind being blown off, keep being gratuitously sassy and bossy.

Michael

I'm not on a quest for your respect.

Its funny you know, you say,"Don't start by telling them what they think and what they have to do" and in the next sentence you tell me how I should handle things.... I've noticed on a few threads members calling you hypocritical. Well, where there's smoke, there's fire, MSK.

[caroljane]

I understand the need to some extent, of filtering out the garbage. But you have to dispose of it in the proper way. Instead of burying the garbage it seems you'd rather sit it on a hilltop and light it on fire.

Aristocrates,

When people consistently post garbage, they are trying to get attention.

I merely provide a proper platform for it.

Believe it or not, when I started doing it that way, it cut waaaaaaaaay down on the consistent garbage being posted.

Trolls only like it when they can spoil stuff in public for productive folks. They hate it when their efforts go into a special troll corner and they can't spoil anything. Often, they just go away and seek easier targets.

Here is a non-solicited piece of advice in communicating with people you say you respect. (This isn't based on your last post, except maybe to a light extent, but on several others I have seen you make.) Don't start out by telling them what they think and what they have to do. Tend more to your own thinking and acts, then trade ideas and observations on that basis. You will find that you can even disagree well that way and go into long discussions.

This is, of course, if you want to gain their respect. If you don't mind being blown off, keep being gratuitously sassy and bossy.

Michael

I'm not on a quest for your respect.

Its funny you know, you say,"Don't start by telling them what they think and what they have to do" and in the next sentence you tell me how I should handle things.... I've noticed on a few threads members calling you hypocritical. Well, where there's smoke, there's fire, MSK.

Thought you were a hockey fan, Aristo.

I've heard people call Sean Avery an arrogant jerk,when he came into a guy's home arena and trash-talked him and his girlfriend, and they were right.

You're the one who's smouldering here.

Edited April 9, 2011 by daunce lynam

[anthony]

I'm not on a quest for your respect.

Its funny you know, you say,"Don't start by telling them what they think and what they have to do" and in the next sentence you tell me how I should handle things.... I've noticed on a few threads members calling you hypocritical. Well, where there's smoke, there's fire, MSK.

Aristo.

What the hell?

You are not making sense. MSK did not have to explain his policies on "garbage", nor advise you on how best to gain response from other posters here.

But he did - motivated somewhat sympathetically by your deflation at being disregarded by someone you were attempting to correspond with, I can only assume.

So why shoot the messenger?

I think you were wrong about defending RHS on account of his good mind and valid points, up-thread, bearing in mind he made a totally gratuitous and insulting remark aimed at OL'ers and Objectivists that was also unprovoked and irrational.

But, I admired your character in coming to his defence, and replied to you justifying my rebuke to him - which set all this in motion.

I think that rising to the defence of justice, you have created an injustice.

When you cool off, I'm sure you will see this.

Tony

[basimpson22]

I concede.

Edited April 10, 2011 by Aristocrates

[Philip Coates]

Aristocrates, was I right in answering your question that your avatar is one of Sendak's wild things? I remember posting that but don't remember seeing an answer.