Firefighters Respond ...watch house burn ...fee not paid

[sbeaulieu]

For instance, does this fire agency have a monopoly? Can anyone who wants to get into the business? What is the motivation of a business to dispatch and not act? This is not a free market solution, it is a statist organization given the privileges of a private actor - the worst of both systems.

Ted,

I'm following you. At this early stage, it'd be hard to say. Given the proper attention, I'm sure someone will dig into this now that it's in MM. Even UK posted this article on one of the news sites.

~ Shane

[Selene]

NY City Fire Department - Fiscal 2008 appropriations = $383, 200, 000.00

NY City Population in 2008, approx 8.2 million. That breaks down to just over $30. Probably less given that the number of residences could average out to 1/2 to 1/4 of the population. So maybe even closer to $15-$20. That's well worth the bill.

I'm assuming $383M covers all stations?

~ Shane

Shane:

Yes, as to the stations.

However, knowing NY City budgeting the way I do, this is not a real number[e.g., the hidden long term costs of pensions and health care never seem to be itemized, gee what a surprise!].

Nevertheless, it is a workable number for comparison to the $75.00 annual "fee". I am extremely interested in how the "discovery process" plays out in both the mainstream media and the alternative media.

Something just does not "feel right" to me. I came from a NY Fire Department family and there is no chance at all that the firefighters would have obeyed a bureaucratic fire commissioner's or a city manager's command over the phone. At least not the men that I knew. I know that there would have been a "communications failure" on the radio or phone while they acted.

Adam

[Selene]

Zee Plot...she thickens!

"Gene Cranick of Obion County and his family lost all of their possessions in the Sept. 29 fire, along with three dogs and a cat.

"They could have been saved if they had put water on it, but they didn't do it," Cranick told MSNBC's Keith Olbermann."

Now the firefighters are in for it! The biggest asshole on cable is involved!

"The fire started when the Cranicks' grandson was burning trash near the family home. As it grew out of control, the Cranicks called 911, but the fire department from the nearby city of South Fulton would not respond. 'We wasn't on their list,' he said the operators told him.

Cranick, who lives outside the city limits, admits he 'forgot' to pay the annual $75 fee. The county does not have a county-wide firefighting service, but South Fulton offers fire coverage to rural residents for a fee."

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/39516346/ns/us_news-life/

Adam

[Brant Gaede]

Zee Plot...she thickens!

"Gene Cranick of Obion County and his family lost all of their possessions in the Sept. 29 fire, along with three dogs and a cat.

"They could have been saved if they had put water on it, but they didn't do it," Cranick told MSNBC's Keith Olbermann."

Now the firefighters are in for it! The biggest asshole on cable is involved!

"The fire started when the Cranicks' grandson was burning trash near the family home. As it grew out of control, the Cranicks called 911, but the fire department from the nearby city of South Fulton would not respond. 'We wasn't on their list,' he said the operators told him.

Cranick, who lives outside the city limits, admits he 'forgot' to pay the annual $75 fee. The county does not have a county-wide firefighting service, but South Fulton offers fire coverage to rural residents for a fee."

http://www.msnbc.msn...s/us_news-life/

Adam

In a perfect world there wouldn't be a public fire dept., but private coverage would be offered and if you had a fire it'd be put out if you were on the scene to sign the contract for X dolars--and all that stuff, but in a perfect world people would still step in front of speeding cars and get smashed up to oblivion.

--Brant

I've made decisions--and I'm not saying they were bad decisions--that cost me much more than that guy who lost his house--did he have insurance?--and I'm not complaining

[Mikee]

Zee Plot...she thickens!

"Gene Cranick of Obion County and his family lost all of their possessions in the Sept. 29 fire, along with three dogs and a cat.

"They could have been saved if they had put water on it, but they didn't do it," Cranick told MSNBC's Keith Olbermann."

Now the firefighters are in for it! The biggest asshole on cable is involved!

"The fire started when the Cranicks' grandson was burning trash near the family home. As it grew out of control, the Cranicks called 911, but the fire department from the nearby city of South Fulton would not respond. 'We wasn't on their list,' he said the operators told him.

Cranick, who lives outside the city limits, admits he 'forgot' to pay the annual $75 fee. The county does not have a county-wide firefighting service, but South Fulton offers fire coverage to rural residents for a fee."

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/39516346/ns/us_news-life/

Adam

Nothing about this resembles a free market service. A truly free market would have multiple service providers racing each other to the scene to show their competence and perhaps earn 100-200 times their usual fee. What we see instead is a government monopoly using this mans house as an example of what happens if you don't pay your protection money. Whatever the mans reasons for not paying the fee ("I forgot", "I'm tapped out, I'll take the risk this year", whatever) it is unconscionable for this fire department to act as they did. Whoever was responsible for this decision, fire chief, bureaucrat, should be fired or thrown out of office. At the least never work for a fire fighting organization of any kind again. This incident embarrasses the profession. It is being used as an example of what happens in a free market (read the comments after the story). It is nothing even remotely resembling free market action.

[kiaer.ts]

Zee Plot...she thickens!

"Gene Cranick of Obion County and his family lost all of their possessions in the Sept. 29 fire, along with three dogs and a cat.

"They could have been saved if they had put water on it, but they didn't do it," Cranick told MSNBC's Keith Olbermann."

Now the firefighters are in for it! The biggest asshole on cable is involved!

"The fire started when the Cranicks' grandson was burning trash near the family home. As it grew out of control, the Cranicks called 911, but the fire department from the nearby city of South Fulton would not respond. 'We wasn't on their list,' he said the operators told him.

Cranick, who lives outside the city limits, admits he 'forgot' to pay the annual $75 fee. The county does not have a county-wide firefighting service, but South Fulton offers fire coverage to rural residents for a fee."

http://www.msnbc.msn...s/us_news-life/

Adam

Nothing about this resembles a free market service. A truly free market would have multiple service providers racing each other to the scene to show their competence and perhaps earn 100-200 times their usual fee. What we see instead is a government monopoly using this mans house as an example of what happens if you don't pay your protection money. Whatever the mans reasons for not paying the fee ("I forgot", "I'm tapped out, I'll take the risk this year", whatever) it is unconscionable for this fire department to act as they did. Whoever was responsible for this decision, fire chief, bureaucrat, should be fired or thrown out of office. At the least never work for a fire fighting organization of any kind again. This incident embarrasses the profession. It is being used as an example of what happens in a free market (read the comments after the story). It is nothing even remotely resembling free market action.

I disagree entirely.

As I said before, there is something weirdly statist and authoritarian going on here. A business would benefit by having both a presubscription and an on-call alternative for its customers. The fact that they did not have an alternative for customers who did not pay ahead of time strikes me as bizarrely punitive. The attitude is much more what you would expect from a bureaucrat than a businessman. For instance, does this fire agency have a monopoly? Can anyone who wants to get into the business? What is the motivation of a business to dispatch and not act? This is not a free market solution, it is a statist organization given the privileges of a private actor - the worst of both systems.

[Mikee]

Ted,

I agree with you. Sorry I missed it the first time you posted it. First thing in the morning etc. Stopped drinking coffee awhile back, still in the adjustment phase. You stated it better than I did. "Bizarrely punitive", exactly.

[kiaer.ts]

Ted,

I agree with you. Sorry I missed it the first time you posted it. First thing in the morning etc. Stopped drinking coffee awhile back, still in the adjustment phase. You stated it better than I did. "Bizarrely punitive", exactly.

No, actually, I liked your version just as much. But I have not given up on the coffee. I make it cold using taster's choice instant in 1% milk as if I were making chocolate milk.

[Selene]

I'm curious as to why Adam chose the "ethics" section for this topic and not the "politics" section. Not criticizing, just curious, that's all. The primary ethical consideration in the story seems to be "why didn't the homeowner purchase the fire insurance for himself?" Maybe he had his reasons, but that does seem to be the ethical question. (recall what "ethics" refers to, in our system)

Rodney:

The field of ethics (or moral philosophy) involves systematizing, defending, and recommending concepts of right and wrong behavior.

Therefore, since, in my judgment, the behavior of the firefighters was at issue here, this was absolutely the proper place for this thread.

Your thoughts?

Adam

By the way, Roy Halliday, who spent twelve (12) years in the baseball purgatory which masquerades as a professional baseball franchise, the Toronto Blue Jays, just pitched the second NO HITTER in baseball's post season history!

This was his first post season appearance. He threw 104 pitches and only walked one (1) man. The last no-hitter was fifty-four (54) years ago, when Don Larson pitched the only perfect game and, by definition, a no-hitter, in World Series history, for the greatest sports franchise in sports history the New York Yankees against the Brooklyn Dodgers.

Edited October 7, 2010 by Selene

[kiaer.ts]

Zee Plot...she thickens!

"Gene Cranick of Obion County and his family lost all of their possessions in the Sept. 29 fire, along with three dogs and a cat.

"They could have been saved if they had put water on it, but they didn't do it," Cranick told MSNBC's Keith Olbermann."

Now the firefighters are in for it! The biggest asshole on cable is involved!

"The fire started when the Cranicks' grandson was burning trash near the family home. As it grew out of control, the Cranicks called 911, but the fire department from the nearby city of South Fulton would not respond. 'We wasn't on their list,' he said the operators told him.

Cranick, who lives outside the city limits, admits he 'forgot' to pay the annual $75 fee. The county does not have a county-wide firefighting service, but South Fulton offers fire coverage to rural residents for a fee."

http://www.msnbc.msn...s/us_news-life/

Adam

Nothing about this resembles a free market service. A truly free market would have multiple service providers racing each other to the scene to show their competence and perhaps earn 100-200 times their usual fee. What we see instead is a government monopoly using this mans house as an example of what happens if you don't pay your protection money. Whatever the mans reasons for not paying the fee ("I forgot", "I'm tapped out, I'll take the risk this year", whatever) it is unconscionable for this fire department to act as they did. Whoever was responsible for this decision, fire chief, bureaucrat, should be fired or thrown out of office. At the least never work for a fire fighting organization of any kind again. This incident embarrasses the profession. It is being used as an example of what happens in a free market (read the comments after the story). It is nothing even remotely resembling free market action.

I disagree entirely.

As I said before, there is something weirdly statist and authoritarian going on here. A business would benefit by having both a presubscription and an on-call alternative for its customers. The fact that they did not have an alternative for customers who did not pay ahead of time strikes me as bizarrely punitive. The attitude is much more what you would expect from a bureaucrat than a businessman. For instance, does this fire agency have a monopoly? Can anyone who wants to get into the business? What is the motivation of a business to dispatch and not act? This is not a free market solution, it is a statist organization given the privileges of a private actor - the worst of both systems.

In case anyone is interested in revisiting this established thread.

[Selene]

Thanks Ted:

Apropos to the reappearance of this thread, Drudge reports the following:

http://newyork.cbslo...ment-crash-tax/

"And drivers needing help from the FDNY will be the targets.

Getting hurt in a car accident is painful enough, but if firefighters have to respond, expect more pain — in your wallet.

Starting next summer, the city plans to bill drivers in accidents that require an emergency response.

The so-called "crash tax" works like this: A car fire or accident with injury would cost you $490. A car fire without injury, $415. And any vehicle accident without injury will run you $365."

Fascinating!

Adam

Edited December 10, 2010 by Selene

[sbeaulieu]

And it's likely to be voted in. Silver lining... people might actually take more care in driving.

~ Shane