Whoring and Pimping, Brothels and Law

[william.scherk]

OL readers may be aware that three provisions of Canada's criminal code have just been struck down by an Ontario Superior Court Judge [Bedford v Canada]. The three laws judged unconstitutional (in Canucki parlance, 'contrary to Charter rights') cover 'Living off the avails of prostitution,' 'soliciting for the purpose of prostitution,' and 'keeping a common bawdy house.'

Prostitution itself is legal in Canada, in that no law on the books prohibits anyone from paying for sex. The three criminal laws struck down, however, prohibited any public selling/soliciting, prohibited the operation of brothels (bawdy houses) and prohibited anyone profiting from prostitution.

Now, we find a grand debate underway in Canada. I am interested in Objectivish takes on prostitution law, and also in any prognostications on how the laws will likely be rewritten or revised or updated.

As some may be aware, two other 'moral' laws have been struck down in Canada in the past decades. The first to go were laws against abortion: there is presently no law on the books with regard to abortion. The second was marriage law (marriage is a federal concern) that made marriage unavailable to same-sex couples.

In the first instance, no law concerning abortion has been able to pass Parliament, and realistically, no party can hope to pass any such law. In the second instance, the feds wrote a law that recognizes no distinction of gender, and directed the provinces to revise their statutes. As a result, abortion is entirely a matter between a woman and her doctor, and marriages are solemnized in all Canadian jurisdictions regardless of gender.

What is interesting to me is that a socialist hellhole like Canada has had laws disappear, with no chance in hell that the Charter freedoms will be abridged again. The basis for the decisions on abortion and gay marriage has been the supposed balance between 'society' and the 'individual.' In each case, judgements have come down on the side of the individual. The harm caused to individuals by the laws has been judged to be much more important than any harm supposed to apply to the collective.

The debate now raging has made some strange bedfellows; moralistic religious groups are making common cause with a wing of the feminist intelligentsia to demand fresh criminal law. It seems to me that once a Charter case has been decided in Canada, that is that . . . it gives me satisfaction to see individual rights trump notions of state/social interests.

If an appeal to the Supreme Court of Canada fails, I suspect that prostitution will become a regulated trade as with the situation in the Netherlands or New Zealand, rather than with the current Nordic model.

[BaalChatzaf]

Prostitution is a base and nasty business, but I cannot see any principled grounds for making it illegal.

It is a reductionist modality which reduces humans (particularly females) to pieces of meat.

Ba'al Chatzaf

[rodney203]

Mr. Scherk,

I see you ARE Canadian; kool. Do you work for a living, or is posting all this interesting stuff all you do?

Now, does this topic belong here in the "ethics" section or over in "politics"? Sometimes it can be difficult to tell, heh?

You commented on how Canada seemed to be "skitzo", i.e., getting some things right even though it's a "socialist hell hole". Well, our theory says that only a proper philosophy can be practiced consistently; any other system would have to be practiced inconsistently. So there is no surprise.

You wondered what Objectivism would have to say about prostitution laws. Well, the answer to that issue should be common agreed upon knowledge here in this community; a no brainer, and I'm sure you can see the answer. But I have a better question: What does Objectivism say about marriage laws? I have the correct answer, but I'm not comfortable saying it because of all the swine in the forum. However if anyone else does say it, I promise to come out. The answer to this question is actually the most important, most untouchable answer our thinking has to offer to the society.

Regarding a strong negative moral stance on the issue of prostitution, such as Mr. Ba'al's: I think that such an attitude just fails to take enough facts into consideration.

Edited October 3, 2010 by rodney203

[Brant Gaede]

Prostitution is a base and nasty business, but I cannot see any principled grounds for making it illegal.

It is a reductionist modality which reduces humans (particularly females) to pieces of meat.

It'd be less base and nasty if it weren't illegal; the pimps are worse than most johns.

--Brant

don't knock the geishas

[9thdoctor]

I am interested in Objectivish takes on prostitution law

I don’t know why there’d be a special Objectivist view, distinct from the libertarian hands off stay out government position.

If an appeal to the Supreme Court of Canada fails, I suspect that prostitution will become a regulated trade as with the situation in the Netherlands or New Zealand, rather than with the current Nordic model.

I’ve spent some good time in Amsterdam, and what they have seems to work. If only they could regulate the weather.

[Rich Engle]

rodney criticizes bacon while behaving like bacon:

" I have the correct answer, but I'm not comfortable saying it because of all the swine in the forum."

Hey, MSK-- Now doesn't that give you just the kind of warm and fuzzy a man needs after a long hard day?

rde

Snark, snark.

Edited October 4, 2010 by Rich Engle

[rodney203]

ND:

I don’t know why there’d be a special Objectivist view, distinct from the libertarian hands off stay out government position.

-------------------------

In this case the objectivist position would be the Libertarian position. No regulation, no testing, no licensing, nothing. The state has no rightful say in this matter.

[Mike11]

Its funny how at this point in history the Socialist Hell has quite a few rights the land of the free does not.

As for the debate at hand my concern is how this affects human trafficking. Sure the Religious and Secular Right use this argument but I think it may have some merit.

[rodney203]

Joel:

As for the debate at hand my concern is how this affects human trafficking. Sure the Religious and Secular Right use this argument but I think it may have some merit.

----------------------------------------

I see your point Joel. It's legal to be an auto mechanic here, and just last week the Mexicans were caught smuggling in 75 auto mechanics abducted from Brazil.

[Brant Gaede]

All I know is I can't get a permit for my whorehouse.

--Brant

going to try Nevada for my number one girl!

[Mike11]

Just for reference, in the Netherlands human trafficking continues to be a serious issue that legalization has provided a cover for.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_in_the_Netherlands#Human_trafficking

At the end of 2008, a gang of six people were sentenced to prison terms of eight months to 7½ years in what prosecutors said was the worst case of human trafficking ever brought to trial in the Netherlands. The case involved more than 100 female victims, violently forced to work in prostitution.[20] In December 2009, two Nigerian men were sentenced to 4 and 4½ years in prison for having smuggled 140 Nigerian women aged 16–23 into the Netherlands. The women were made to apply for asylum and then disappeared from asylum centers, to work as prostitutes in surrounding countries. The men were said to have used "voodoo" curses on the women to prevent escape and enforce payment of debts.

If prostitution is going to be legal in Canada we're going to need a damn good system in place to prevent exploitation.

[Selene]

Joel:

Slave trade and human trafficking have always existed and will continue as long as there are humans who will engage in that activity.

Whether prostitution, which is the instant case we are debating here, is legal or illegal, evil scum will try to traffic young boys and girls to supply the demand of other evil scum.

The question, in my mind, is whether there is more or less trafficking where prostitution is legal? Do we know?

The second point is that if someone I knew, boy or girl, friend or family member was "trafficked", I would make it my personal mission to hunt down the trafficker, gut him or her, and post their head on a pole with a warning to the next evil scum who elected to engage in this activity.

Finally, if I knew someone who was on the buying end of that trafficking, I would make sure that he or she met the same end.

Adam

Yes I am a primitive barbarian when it comes to children.

One strike and you are out.

[rodney203]

Joel:

"Just for reference, in the Netherlands human trafficking continues to be a serious issue that legalization has provided a cover for."

-----------------------------------------------------

I think you pulled a switch Joel and that's not fair. Is the problem that it's legal in Holland, or illegal everywhere else, thus creating the demand, and especially the high profit from illegal activities?

[william.scherk]

Its funny how at this point in history the Socialist Hell has quite a few rights the land of the free does not.

I would not put the situation in such stark terms. Up here in the hellhole, though, there just isn't any credible push to write a new abortion law, or any effort whatsoever to rewrite the provincial marriage statutes. Many folks might not like the fact that two men or two women can go to the court house and get a license to wed, but they aren't quite ready to go apeshit Tea Party crazy over the matter.

As for the debate at hand my concern is how this affects human trafficking. Sure the Religious and Secular Right use this argument but I think it may have some merit.

The 'struck down' laws stand for the moment (the judge gave 30 days 'grace') and the federal government (by Canadian standards from the 'right,' by Tea Party standards on point with Mao) will appeal the ruling. But you are right. The moralistic arguments are the usual screeching and moaning about what other folks do with their genitals and how awful it is . . . but human trafficking is a grave concern for some who otherwise like the idea of a laissez-faire market in sex.

I didn't add another note that might surprise some of my south of the border friends -- marijuana policing. In my province, BC, cops and courts simply don't give a shit about smoking dope or possession of under an ounce. In Vancouver right now, at the New Amsterdam cafe, about a hundred folks are toking madly away in the storefront downtown, with zero possibility that police will enter, let alone charge anyone found in.

Does this say anything about the relative merits of the Socialist Hellhole and the USA? Nope. But it is a fact.

[Mike11]

Selene,

1) As far as whether or not human trafficking will increase I don't know. I can't find the numbers online and there are arguments for or against.

2) Whether or not there is an increase or decrease its clear from the Wiki article legalization makes good cover hence why if we do get the industry going in Canada it needs to be watched like a hawk. We have some nasty places in this country heavily linked to international crime so we need to be wary against abuse.

3) As a side note if this does get going it needs to be treated as a special industry. This is more an issue in Canada than the States as we have a welfare program which can be affected. Several years ago in one of the European countries a woman was unemployed. The Government told her there were plenty of jobs, in prostitution, so her benefits were denied. Cases like that need to be dealt with in a sensitive manner.

I know from an Objectivist stand point these arguments are not very strong but they are issues I can see Canadians grappling with as this progresses.

[kiaer.ts]

Selene,

1) As far as whether or not human trafficking will increase I don't know. I can't find the numbers online and there are arguments for or against.

2) Whether or not there is an increase or decrease its clear from the Wiki article legalization makes good cover hence why if we do get the industry going in Canada it needs to be watched like a hawk. We have some nasty places in this country heavily linked to international crime so we need to be wary against abuse.

3) As a side note if this does get going it needs to be treated as a special industry. This is more an issue in Canada than the States as we have a welfare program which can be affected. Several years ago in one of the European countries a woman was unemployed. The Government told her there were plenty of jobs, in prostitution, so her benefits were denied. Cases like that need to be dealt with in a sensitive manner.

I know from an Objectivist stand point these arguments are not very strong but they are issues I can see Canadians grappling with as this progresses.

That does raise a question. What is the Objectivist position on whether women, who live in a country inhabited by the descendants of willing payers of the Crown's tea tax, have the right to continuation of their food stamps, when hoards of married gay males are willing to pay them to act as surrogate mothers, no matter what the woman's religious beliefs?

Edited October 6, 2010 by Ted Keer

[Mike11]

Ted, sorry, I don't understand.

[Selene]

Joel:

Understood. Do not assume that I am an "Objectivist" in the ARIan mold.

Second, adults can act as they wish in terms of drugs, prostitution etc.

In today's world, a special industry or profession status would be a decent start, no pun intended.

William:

Your attempt to categorize the tea party as anti-homosexual "marriage" is just not valid.

"...they aren't quite ready to go apeshit Tea Party crazy over the matter." "...by Tea Party standards on point with Mao)."

You need to trade in that "broad brush" for a paint by numbers set which can allow you to paint within the actual lines of actual peoples libertarian views which comprise most of the tea party folks.

Finally, "In my province, BC, cops and courts simply don't give a shit about smoking dope or possession of under an ounce." Yes, I know. You can buy some excellent seeds from folks in B.C. for home hydroponics down here.

Furthermore, the tide is turning regarding the ganja. The pathetic governor of "Kalifourea", Ms. Arnold Shriver, just signed legislation that possession of under an ounce will be an infraction similar to a civil infraction.

As NORML notes, "Yesterday, outgoing California Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger signed Senate Bill 1449 — which reduces adult marijuana possession charges from a criminal misdemeanor to a civil infraction. NORML would like to thank the 2,500+ of you who took the time to write the Governor over the past week via NORML's 'Take Action Center', and the many more who called the Governor's office directly in support of this historic measure." http://blog.norml.or...action-measure/

Long overdue. NJ just passed legal medical ganja law. It is just a matter of time.

Adam

Edited October 6, 2010 by Selene

[kiaer.ts]

I fixed the missing comma and the misspelling of hoards, Joel.

But it was a trick question any way. Canadian whores don't get Food Stamps, no matter what their religious affiliation.

[anthony]

Ted, sorry, I don't understand.

Following from your European example: no State benefits for a woman if she does not employ her body expeditiously.

Sexual gratifier, baby-maker, all utilities of the State.

What a world.

[kluss]

is this not somthing before the internet age? do you need a place for that thing, to orgenize it ? dont you only need a GPS, a house, a skype video server and some smartphones to orgenize this things nowdays ?

btw why do girls do this nowdays why cant they just sell ther eggs (i guess they are prettey and will get good price speicaly if they are from laos or ubzekistan or some other hell holle )when ther religon are probebly less morlaistic then christians ?or just setep som server in camboida or kazhastan and have cybersex ?

(could not use this spellchecker from this public computer sorry could not download it did say and not easy to understand and then translate back pilosphical consecpts back to a other langues )

btw in this country if you get trafficked and eh go to the police you will get new id a work premmit and computer/bar/langues courses free from the goverment so you have a change to get a eh real work and a plan b if you choose to leave, a way to do it ?