Protectiveness and Masculinity


Dennis Hardin

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According to relationship expert Alison Armstrong, appearing on the Dennis Prager radio show earlier today, one of the things men commonly do not know about women is that they experience the issue of safety on a daily basis. Men rarely are even aware of safety at all, and only think of it if something truly threatening occurs. For women, safety is a daily, even an hourly concern. Women crave safety in the way that men crave sex. In fact, this is such a powerful issue for women that it is one of the key factors that impact a woman’s response to a man. To the extent that a man makes a woman feel protected, she is much more likely to respond to him sexually. Things which a man might consider totally insignificant, such as assisting her to cross a busy street, might well be experienced by the woman as something akin to foreplay.

If a man is smaller in stature than a woman, Armstrong says he can impact her feeling about him by offering to arm wrestle with her. By proving his superior strength to her in this way, her feminine chemistry will kick in, so to speak, and she will begin to respond to him as a protective male.

Armstrong clearly indicated that this sense of protectiveness is absolutely essential for female sexual response, and could undermine such response to the extent that it is missing.

This was a revelation to me. As a man, I can’t remember the last time I felt truly unsafe. I have always been aware that women like to feel protected, but I never really thought about the psychological mechanics which underlie that need. It makes perfect sense, of course, because women in our society are obviously much more vulnerable to physical dangers, including intimidating or assaultive men. To know that women experience this safety issue daily is utterly fascinating. It is something about which men should be very mindful when considering the needs of women they care about.

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"Masculinity" doesn't hold much weight. If their women are an indication, I meet plenty of men who put on an act to be masculine. And I don't think that the women in topic need safety, they want control. I once tried selling a couple who fit my take on the subject. The man led the conversation so I landed him on what he wanted and needed. But then his wife said, "I thought we decided you weren't going to get that." So they had a quiet conversation wherein he caved to his wife, then stood up to me, and they both left. Masculine and safe.

I don't understand it. Why would a woman be attracted to that kind of man and what man wouldn't be repulsed by that kind of a woman?

Edited by Bryce
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"Masculinity" doesn't hold much weight. If their women are an indication, I meet plenty of men who put on an act to be masculine. And I don't think that the women in topic need safety, they want control. I once tried selling a couple who fit my take on the subject. The man led the conversation so I landed him on what he wanted and needed. But then his wife said, "I thought we decided you weren't going to get that." So they had a quiet conversation wherein he caved to his wife, then stood up to me, and they both left. Masculine and safe.

I don't understand it. Why would a woman be attracted to that kind of man and what man wouldn't be repulsed by that kind of a woman?

There certainly are a great many misconceptions about what masculinity (and femininity) is and isn't. Probably the best definition is simply that of enjoying your relationship toward the opposite sex. That's why I made use of the term here. If a man knows a woman needs a sense of safety, he will want to provide that for someone he cares about.

I do not sufficiently understand your question to know how to answer it.

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Guaranteed that Armstrong's advice leads to a new rash of pseudo-masculine types; still, it's got to be a lot better than the "metro-sexual male" who can't wait to trot out his faked 'sensitive side' to adoring women. Yuk!

Ultimately, I think it's a man's fearless honesty and integrity that makes a woman feel secure.

All the muscles in the world are not going to disguise an inherently weak male for long.

Tony

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> assisting her to cross a busy street, might well be experienced by the woman as something akin to foreplay. [Dennis]

Since I'm six-two and 235 pounds my solution is simply to lift them up and carry them across the street. (Clubbing and dragging by the hair are a bit old fashioned.) :rolleyes:

Seriously though, I think the relationship expert has a point but considerably overstates it: In a modern, civilized society women aren't constantly feeling unsafe. They do feel a need for sensitivity as well, Tony (so much for the clubbing and dragging bit). Women aren't constantly feeling unsafe. They do feel a need for sensitivity as well, Tony (so much for the clubbing and dragging bit).

Objectivists seem to too often fall for radically oversimplified psychological insights.

Edited by Philip Coates
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Seriously though, I think the relationship expert has a point but considerably overstates it: In a modern, civilized society women aren't constantly feeling unsafe.

I too can't relate to the "constantly feeling unsafe" bit, and would caution against too much categorizing here.

If a man is smaller in stature than a woman, Armstrong says he can impact her feeling about him by offering to arm wrestle with her. By proving his superior strength to her in this way, her feminine chemistry will kick in, so to speak, and she will begin to respond to him as a protective male.

But what if the woman in the "arm wrestling match" turns out to be in fact physically stronger than the man? Does Ms. Armstrong have any solutions for the poor guy in that case? :)

Edited by Xray
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A woman's smarter, that's what I say!

Woman smarter in every way!

They even get guys like Dennis to write them up just the way they want.

--Brant

All this sounds like a lot of guys at some male-only club talking about women as if they were a separate species. It is certainly true that a great many women are able to outsmart many men, mainly because our attention tends to be divided between two entirely separate heads.

Women generally know where male weaknesses are, and they know how to get what they want by exploiting those weaknesses. But to call women smarter as a gender? No way. Look at how few women are able to grasp enough philosophy to even begin to challenge the men here at OL.

No doubt cultural factors figure into the equation and explain why men tend to be left-brained and logical while women tend to be right-brained and emotional-intuitive. Right-brained emotionalism/intuition may help a woman to manipulate men to some extent, but being genuinely smart entails the capacity to think logically and to stay focused on rationally chosen goals.

I don't think I have to tell the mostly male members of OL that Ayn and Barbara are the rare exceptions to the rule.

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Objectivists seem to too often fall for radically oversimplified psychological insights.

Interesting turn of phrase. What does "fall" mean in this context? Stumbling over the truth?

Alison Armstrong gets a lot of validation from her female audience, so obviously a lot of women share her feelings on this issue. I thought the mostly male population of OL might benefit from the knowledge, to the extent that it might apply to the women in their lives.

"Radically oversimplified"? A lot of women feel a very real concern for their safety on a daily basis in our society. Not sure what complications you think Armstrong needs to add.

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Seriously though, I think the relationship expert has a point but considerably overstates it: In a modern, civilized society women aren't constantly feeling unsafe.

I too can't relate to the "constantly feeling unsafe" bit, and would caution against too much categorizing here.

If a man is smaller in stature than a woman, Armstrong says he can impact her feeling about him by offering to arm wrestle with her. By proving his superior strength to her in this way, her feminine chemistry will kick in, so to speak, and she will begin to respond to him as a protective male.

But what if the woman in the "arm wrestling match" turns out to be in fact physically stronger than the man? Does Ms. Armstrong have any solutions for the poor guy in that case? :)

I appreciate getting a female perspective on this. Thanks. Obviously the fear is not universal for all women.

If the guy loses to the woman in arm wrestling, he might want to ask her permission to leave the room so he can go have himself a good cry.

Edited by Dennis Hardin
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Since I'm six-two and 235 pounds my solution is simply to lift them up and carry them across the street.

Hmm, then I think you were caught on tape:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mqhPLYRo_wM&feature=player_embedded

Move ahead to 1:20 to see who really knows how to score with the ladies.

Objectivists seem to too often fall for radically oversimplified psychological insights.

You were doing beautifully, until that last sentence. Good points, humorous delivery…Primo Phil. Then you insult the guy who started the thread, and who's most eager to talk about the subject.

I think Dennis provided a nice conversation starter, my thought when I saw it last night was to take it in another direction, to point out that women use men’s “instinct” to protect them in a manipulative way, and that women like being fought over. Maybe a bit misogynistic, but I call it like I’ve seen it.

This could develop into an interesting thread if you don’t make it about how superior you are compared to those “too often” Objectivists.

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It was always confusing to me that the most masculine people I knew were the men who absolutely hate women, they treated women badly with total disrespect, they called them bitches, etc. etc. It seemed if you liked women you were soft or possibly effeminate; maybe even gay. Of course women just lapped up that kind of treatment.

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> assisting her to cross a busy street, might well be experienced by the woman as something akin to foreplay. [Dennis]

Since I'm six-two and 235 pounds my solution is simply to lift them up and carry them across the street. (Clubbing and dragging by the hair are a bit old fashioned.) :rolleyes:

Seriously though, I think the relationship expert has a point but considerably overstates it: In a modern, civilized society women aren't constantly feeling unsafe. They do feel a need for sensitivity as well, Tony (so much for the clubbing and dragging bit). Women aren't constantly feeling unsafe. They do feel a need for sensitivity as well, Tony (so much for the clubbing and dragging bit).

Objectivists seem to too often fall for radically oversimplified psychological insights.

Hi Phil,

Ok, I got your point - you didn't have to state it twice. (Talk about "clubbing" a point to death) :lol:

So women require some sensitivity (along with strength)? Too true, as I do, also. That's not my argument.

Generally, I don't believe 'women' want to be understood, or they make it hard to be, and Ive often felt that we 'men' prefer it that way. (The image is easier than the reality to many).

What I have managed to do is to understand A woman - sometimes... when motivated to put in the close attention needed.

As individuals, there is not much difference between the sexes, I've come to conclude.

(Still, along with understanding, a little bit of mystique and allure should always remain, would you agree?)

Frankly, a long while back, I became tired of all the manipulation going on - it seemed like dishonest game-playing - and began resorting to 'get real' honesty.

When it was appreciated, I knew this was someone really fine; when it wasn't, she wasn't.

Sorry that this became an off-topic discourse, but

that's my point about honesty and integrity with women. It owes more to my personal experience, and oh yes, to reading Nathaniel B., than it does to Objectivism - but not exclusively.

Tony

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I think Dennis provided a nice conversation starter, my thought when I saw it last night was to take it in another direction, to point out that women use men’s “instinct” to protect them in a manipulative way, and that women like being fought over. Maybe a bit misogynistic, but I call it like I’ve seen it.

ND,

Once again, the gents at the Men’s Club need to exercise a little discretion when it comes to the temptation to characterize all women as exactly the same. We know that guys are not all alike in terms of how we relate to women. The same obviously goes for the distaff side.

Some women undoubtedly do enjoy manipulating men into fighting over them. And the dupes who fall for that ploy deserve their respective bloody noses. Hopefully their macho bravado will help them to compensate for all the humiliation that goes with dating such women. The point is, if a man is with a woman he likes, will the knowledge that she may be susceptible to fears for her safety be helpful in relating to her? The answer seems obvious: yes, of course. And if making her feel protected serves as an aphrodasiac--and some women say it definitely does--what man wouldn't want to know that?

Since I'm six-two and 235 pounds my solution is simply to lift them up and carry them across the street.

I think it's important that the men commenting on this thread include their vital statistics so that all the defenseless women out there in OL land can contact them in times of need.

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Since I'm six-two and 235 pounds my solution is simply to lift them up and carry them across the street.

I think it's important that the men commenting on this thread include their vital statistics so that all the defenseless women out there in OL land can contact them in times of need.

Seven inches.

--Brant

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Since I'm six-two and 235 pounds my solution is simply to lift them up and carry them across the street.

I think it's important that the men commenting on this thread include their vital statistics so that all the defenseless women out there in OL land can contact them in times of need.

Seven inches.

--Brant

Really? You're seven inches? How big is your penis?

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Since I'm six-two and 235 pounds my solution is simply to lift them up and carry them across the street.

I think it's important that the men commenting on this thread include their vital statistics so that all the defenseless women out there in OL land can contact them in times of need.

Seven inches.

--Brant

Really? You're seven inches? How big is your penis?

Don't try to cap a capper.

--Brant

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> "Radically oversimplified"? A lot of women feel a very real concern for their safety on a daily basis in our society. Not sure what complications you think Armstrong needs to add.

Dennis, it's not a -general- concern among all of them.

Think of another case of someone smaller and weaker, a child: Until maybe age 13 or so, he is physically smaller than -both- men and women around him. Do you think he feels unsafe just because of that? Feeling unsafe is not about size. It's about context, early experiences in one's life.

Edited by Philip Coates
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Once again, the gents at the Men’s Club need to exercise a little discretion when it comes to the temptation to characterize all women as exactly the same.

I was just identifying a pattern, not claiming it applied universally.

Since I'm six-two and 235 pounds my solution is simply to lift them up and carry them across the street.

I think it's important that the men commenting on this thread include their vital statistics so that all the defenseless women out there in OL land can contact them in times of need.

Seven inches.

--Brant

Really? You're seven inches? How big is your penis?

Don't try to cap a capper.

--Brant

For once a thread has been killed with Phil’s participation, but without it being his fault. Let's go for broke:

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According to relationship expert Alison Armstrong, appearing on the Dennis Prager radio show earlier today, one of the things men commonly do not know about women is that they experience the issue of safety on a daily basis. Men rarely are even aware of safety at all, and only think of it if something truly threatening occurs. For women, safety is a daily, even an hourly concern. Women crave safety in the way that men crave sex. In fact, this is such a powerful issue for women that it is one of the key factors that impact a woman’s response to a man. To the extent that a man makes a woman feel protected, she is much more likely to respond to him sexually. Things which a man might consider totally insignificant, such as assisting her to cross a busy street, might well be experienced by the woman as something akin to foreplay.

If a man is smaller in stature than a woman, Armstrong says he can impact her feeling about him by offering to arm wrestle with her. By proving his superior strength to her in this way, her feminine chemistry will kick in, so to speak, and she will begin to respond to him as a protective male.

Armstrong clearly indicated that this sense of protectiveness is absolutely essential for female sexual response, and could undermine such response to the extent that it is missing.

This was a revelation to me. As a man, I can’t remember the last time I felt truly unsafe. I have always been aware that women like to feel protected, but I never really thought about the psychological mechanics which underlie that need. It makes perfect sense, of course, because women in our society are obviously much more vulnerable to physical dangers, including intimidating or assaultive men. To know that women experience this safety issue daily is utterly fascinating. It is something about which men should be very mindful when considering the needs of women they care about.

Dennis, I agree with you that Armstrong is on to something important. But he has not quite named it. I don’t think women – or at least not this woman –“experience the issue of safety on a daily basis.” They do not, I believe, experience it consciously. That is, unless I am in a physically threatening situation, the issue of safety rarely enters my mind. However, I do think the issue is present in women on a subconscious level, that a woman carries with her the implicit awareness that men tend to be physically stronger than she and can become threatening to her.

So I agree with you– and Armstrong -- that women value protectiveness in men. Indeed, that it Is part of what we mean by “masculinity.” But we need to e careful about what we mean by “protectiveness.” It’s not the so-called “protectiveness” of a man who treats women as fragile little dolls who need a big strong man to stand between them and a harsh reality. That, to me, would be a complete turn-off, and an insult. Rather, it’s the protectiveness of a man who communicates that if the woman should need his superior physical strength, it will be there for her. And this, indeed, can be communicated by such simple things as offering his arm when they are crossing a busy street.

I must add, however, that few things are absolutes. I was once in a situation where a man I cared for was threatened by a hoodlum with a knife. Without a thought in my head, I instantly leaped between them, to protect the man I loved -- who was, it so happened, unusually physically powerful and perfectly able to protect himself.

Barbara

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Precisely correct Barbara.

"Rather, it’s the protectiveness of a man who communicates that if the woman should need his superior physical strength,

it will be there for her. And this, indeed, can be communicated by such simple things as offering his arm when they are crossing a busy street."

If you carry yourself with self confidence and you are aware of your surroundings, you impart a sense of security to whoever you are with.

Subconsciously, women, have a sense, or genetic memory of either knowing someone, or being in a state wherein protection is required, e.g., bearing a child.

Excellent observations.

Adam

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Dennis, I agree with you that Armstrong is on to something important. But he has not quite named it. I don’t think women – or at least not this woman –“experience the issue of safety on a daily basis.” They do not, I believe, experience it consciously. That is, unless I am in a physically threatening situation, the issue of safety rarely enters my mind. However, I do think the issue is present in women on a subconscious level, that a woman carries with her the implicit awareness that men tend to be physically stronger than she and can become threatening to her.

So I agree with you– and Armstrong -- that women value protectiveness in men. Indeed, that it Is part of what we mean by “masculinity.” But we need to e careful about what we mean by “protectiveness.” It’s not the so-called “protectiveness” of a man who treats women as fragile little dolls who need a big strong man to stand between them and a harsh reality. That, to me, would be a complete turn-off, and an insult. Rather, it’s the protectiveness of a man who communicates that if the woman should need his superior physical strength, it will be there for her. And this, indeed, can be communicated by such simple things as offering his arm when they are crossing a busy street.

I must add, however, that few things are absolutes. I was once in a situation where a man I cared for was threatened by a hoodlum with a knife. Without a thought in my head, I instantly leaped between them, to protect the man I loved -- who was, it so happened, unusually physically powerful and perfectly able to protect himself.

Barbara

Thank you, Barbara. Your comments really help to clarify what is going here from a female perspective, and make the issue easier for a male to grasp. While this safety concern may be primarily subsonscious, I can imagine there would be a lot of situations that could activate the fear, such as proximity to men who are behaving aggressively or erratically. I can see how some degree of strength and confidence might be prerequisites for communicating protectiveness, and how so-called “macho men” could overdo this by deliberately making a woman feel weak and helpless. Many so-called ‘gentlemanly’ behaviors—opening doors, letting a woman go first, offering her a seat—seem ‘protective’ in the sense of underscoring the fact that she is not his equal physically while reassuring her that she does not need to feel threatened. But some men will take this too far, mistakenly assuming that putting on a tough act and demeaning the woman will somehow be perceived as more “manly.” There’s obviously a fine line here, but if a man is aware of a woman’s need to feel safe, he should have a good sense of when and where to communicate that awareness.

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I'm still scratching my head over the arm wrestling thing.

rde

A caller to Dennis Prager's show asked Alison Armstrong if women are less likely to feel protected by a man of smaller stature. As I recall, the caller stated he was either short or on the small side. Armstrong told him to playfully suggest to the woman he was dating that they arm wrestle. Since men almost always have much greater muscular strength, the man will nearly always win and win easily. Armstrong said that, when he demonstrates his superior strength to her in this way, her feminine chemistry will kick in, and she will begin to respond to him as a protective male.

Of course, it would be important to approach this as a game rather than an actual demonstration. Hopefully, the guy is not going to say, "Well, Alice, it's time for me to show you how strong I am."

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