General Petraeus on Koran burning

[9thdoctor]

I just watched Olbermann’s segment on General Petraeus’s public statements about a planned Koran burning in Florida scheduled for 9/11/2010. I’m concerned about the precedent of a military leader using a bully pulpit against free speech at home. I think the message we should be sending to whomever has a problem with this is to deal with it, that this is what freedom looks like (toothless hicks burning your holy book, so what), and we’ll provide you with paper copies of the US Constitution, which you can burn in front of us by way of payback. Or you can take them home and read, one copy a person.

The preacher behind this is named Terry Jones, and being an incurable Monty Python fanatic I can’t resist:

[sbeaulieu]

Ninth,

Good point on the freedom of speech. But I wonder if actual book burning is covered (since that doesn't involve 'speech')?

My question to this is "Why incite all Muslims?" If you're voicing discontent to a specific group, throwing the Qu'ran into a bonfire isn't the right way to go about doing it.

~ Shane

[9thdoctor]

I wonder if actual book burning is covered (since that doesn't involve 'speech')?

It’s like flag burning, that’s covered though it’s been debated. Call it free expression then.

My question to this is "Why incite all Muslims?" If you're voicing discontent to a specific group, throwing the Qu'ran into a bonfire isn't the right way to go about doing it.

In my opinion these people are fools, probably bigots, and this won’t accomplish anything good, but that’s not the point.

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

I think burning holy books is distasteful. And I really dislike it when people burn the American flag.

But if Muslims are touting a God-given American right to build a mosque at Ground Zero, they should not expect a lot of people to get outraged over a small-town preacher burning Qur'ans. I know my own enthusiasm to speak out is quite low in light of that mosque thing.

Other than that, General Petraeus is military, not civilian. I would have no problem with him issuing an order that the troops under his command shall not burn the Qur'an. He has the power to do that.

And just as all these good folks, mosque-builders and Qur'an burners, have their rights, the good General also has his own right to free speech. He issued his concerns publicly.

But that's as far as it goes on American shores.

All this actually is what freedom looks like.

Michael

[sbeaulieu]

In my opinion these people are fools, probably bigots, and this won’t accomplish anything good, but that’s not the point.

Some people's kids...

But I get your point. All the same, I wish little escapades like this weren't what we go to the front lines to defend.

Let's see if Muslims turn the other cheek.

~ Shane

[9thdoctor]

I would have no problem with him issuing an order that the troops under his command shall not burn the Qur'an. He has the power to do that.

And just as all these good folks, mosque-builders and Qur'an burners, have their rights, the good General also has his own right to free speech. He issued his concerns publicly.

But that's as far as it goes on American shores.

This isn’t about troops burning the Koran, he’s speaking against the small town preacher at home. I suppose he hasn’t crossed the line, but if there are attacks in the coming days, and there’s a link established to the Koran burnings, free speech will be in the cross hairs. Why does he speak against this and not South Park? Or Pamela Geller?

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Let's see if Muslims turn the other cheek.

Shane,

LOL...

That was quite funny.

Yes, let's do see if they turn the other cheek as they claim we must.

Michael

[Selene]

Gentleman:

As dumb as this televangelist is, and he approaches 100% dumb, he is as un-Christian as one can be.

However, I would still rather have it the way it is here than a country or "legal system" that buries a woman up to her neck and then stones her!

I have major personal problems with folks who burn the American flag because I can see catching me on a bad day and I could easily smack the shit out of the person.

Of course, I would be completely wrong.

I just do not get the purpose of burning the Koran. It is completely beyond me.

Adam

scratching his head in amazement at the extent of human stupidity

Asimov wrote a book "The God's Themselves Contend in Vain Against Stupidity...

here is the link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Gods_Themselves

"The main plot line is a project by aliens who inhabit a parallel universe (the para-Universe) with different physical laws from this one. By exchanging matter with Earth, they seek to exploit these differences in physical laws. The exchange of matter provides an alternative source of energy in their dying Universe. However, the exchange of physical laws will have the ultimate result of turning the Earth's Sun into a supernova, and possibly even turning a large part of the Milky Way into a quasar which, in turn, provides more energy for the para-Universe."

It won the Nebula Award for best novel in 1972.

[9thdoctor]

Yes, let's do see if they turn the other cheek as they claim we must.

I didn't think "turn the other cheek" made it into Islam. Maybe Adonis will clarify.

[sbeaulieu]

I didn't think "turn the other cheek" made it into Islam. Maybe Adonis will clarify.

I meant this as humor, but also to highlight the ignorance of said televanglist to make assumptions (and I'm assuming this, of course) that those they decry will sit idly by and do nothing (hence, turning the other cheek).

As to whether Muslims hold Christians to their own teachings...that would be interesting to know.

~ Shane

[BaalChatzaf]

In my opinion these people are fools, probably bigots, and this won't accomplish anything good, but that's not the point.

Some people's kids...

But I get your point. All the same, I wish little escapades like this weren't what we go to the front lines to defend.

Let's see if Muslims turn the other cheek.

~ Shane

They won't. Very likely there will be riots. Why do I say so? Look what happened after the Mohammed Cartoon affair. I would not be surprise if some radical Muslim puts out a Fatwah (contract) on the preacher who burns the Q'ran.

Ba'al Chatzaf

[9thdoctor]

I meant this as humor, but also to highlight the ignorance of said televanglist to make assumptions (and I'm assuming this, of course) that those they decry will sit idly by and do nothing (hence, turning the other cheek).

Yeah, I got that, I was replying to MSK’s reply.

I think burning holy books is distasteful.

How about this: let’s all get PDF or text file copies of the Koran, and announce that on a certain day, we will all delete the file from our computers. And empty our recycle bins. That’ll teach ‘em.

And this pile of paper they're going to burn is not "The Koran". Particularly if it's an English translation. We should make sure they're not burning copies in Arabic.

[Jerry Biggers]

I really feel good about knowing that the architect of our military strategy in Afghanistan thinks that it was a really good idea to denounce this christian ignoramus, thus giving him worldwide free publicity - the exact opposite of what our good General wanted.

[9thdoctor]

I really feel good about knowing that the architect of our military strategy in Afghanistan thinks that it was a really good idea to denounce this christian ignoramus, thus giving him worldwide free publicity - the exact opposite of what our good General wanted.

I was suggesting a budding conspiracy to subvert free speech and increase Government power. You’re saying it’s just stupidity. I must concede that you have Hanlon’s Razor on your side.

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

I didn't think "turn the other cheek" made it into Islam. Maybe Adonis will clarify.

Dennis,

I'm not sure if it did. I only know that when radical Islamist groups go into victim mode propaganda, the subtext is always for the West to turn the other cheek with respect to the "reasonable" atrocities they commit.

Michael

[Jerry Biggers]

I really feel good about knowing that the architect of our military strategy in Afghanistan thinks that it was a really good idea to denounce this christian ignoramus, thus giving him worldwide free publicity - the exact opposite of what our good General wanted.

I was suggesting a budding conspiracy to subvert free speech and increase Government power. You’re saying it’s just stupidity. I must concede that you have Hanlon’s Razor on your side.

Thanks for the link to the fascinating article in Wikipedia on "Hanlon's Razor," and its presentation on the various versions of this "razor."

Whether it is attributed to Hanlon or Heinlein, I personally favor its elaborative addendum (as attributed by Peter Singer to Albert Einstein),

Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity, but don't rule out malice.

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Glenn Beck, who is on vacation, weighed in on this issue. I like very much what he said.

Thoughts From Glenn on Church Plan to Burn Koran

I’m on vacation and trying to unplug but the news can make that hard. I just read the story about the Florida church planning to burn copies of the Koran.

What is wrong with us? It’s just like the Ground Zero mosque plan. Does this church have the right? Yes. Should they? No. And not because of the potential backlash or violence. Simply because it is wrong. The more I reflect on what happened on 8/28 the more I realize the amazing power of GOOD.

We must be the better person. We must be bigger than our problems. Bigger than the times in which we live. Burning the Koran is like burning the flag or the Bible. You can do it, but whose heart will you change by doing it? You will only harden the hearts of those who could be moved. None of those who are thinking about killing us will be affected, but our good Muslim friends and neighbors will be saddened. It makes the battle that they face inside their own communities even harder.

Let us rise above the current levels and elevate ourselves and our country. The only thing this act would prove is that you CAN burn a Koran. I didn’t know America was in doubt on that fact. Let’s prove to each other that while there are many things we can do, there are maybe many more things that we choose not to do.

It's no secret that I'm a Beck fan. But that's not the only reason I post things like this.

There is deep wisdom in Beck's response. I believe it is possible to achieve that from an Objectivist orientation.

Yes, we can be bigger than the times we live in.

We don't have to do everything we can just to prove to others that we can, especially obnoxious and hurtful things that prove we can, but prove nothing more.

Maybe when I observe Beck, I resonate because I behold a a true uplifting vision that anyone can share. A command to rise, as Rand would say. A command to be bigger than the times you live in. And Beck does it in speech and his own actions.

That's rare in today's mainstream world.

Michael

[Selene]

Michael:

Precisely. I am also a Beck endorser and have been since I heard him in Virginia some five (5) or six (6) years ago.

I get his e-mails daily and check his BLAZE news site daily also...http://www.theblaze.com/

"t makes the battle that they face inside their own communities even harder." This jumped off the e-mail when I read it today.

I have another close friend who went to the 8-28 gathering.

When you post your account, I have permission to make her writings to what you post.

He is a worthy citizen.

Adam

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

I just had an outside-the-box thought.

If I were in the Western intelligence community, I would be thrilled about an idiot like pastor Terry Jones doing what he is doing.

I believe the vast majority of Muslims are not going to give his idiocy any more thought than something like I did: they will feel this thing is distasteful and they will try to be bigger than the implications. Then they will get on with their lives.

But, if we look a little deeper, look at the gains to the intelligence community.

1. Pastor Terry Jones is a cult leader (even his own daughter calls him that), so if something happens to him, not all that many people will get upset. He preaches self-sacrifice and--Islamist kooks being what they are--will likely get to practice it, but the bottom line is that, for political purposes, he, himself, is so kooky he is expendable.

2. The Muslims who are going ballistic over this are Muslims who go ballistic. They're the bad guys. At this very moment, they're sticking their faces right into cameras and saying, "I'm the one who's the enemy." Who needs covert operations to discover anything when the bad guys are shouting in public at you? All you have to do is take pictures and take names, then follow up later.

3. If a top dog like General Petraeus comes out in public with a message against our kook, and even says that we need to do something about our kook because our kook will antagonize their kooks, he makes it look like America is afraid of their kooks--and this makes their kooks come out into the public and swagger even more. Maybe some who are more cautious will be moved by bravado to come out.

4. General Petraeus gets the added benefit of showing to that vast majority of Muslims (who are not kooks) that the USA military does not condone insulting them. Hell, even Obama has jumped on that bandwagon.

Talk about smoke and mirrors--the intelligence community had this subterfuge fall right into their laps. No wonder someone with the prestige and media clout of General Petraeus commented on it. All the intelligence community has to do is nudge it a little bit with bogus outrage from American leaders and they get a windfall. And the bogus outrage can even be real outrage (not many people like burning holy books on principle) as gravy.

OK, this is speculation, but these dots sure fit together real well.

Michael

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

How's this for an unintended consequence? (Or worse, an intended consequence?)

Westboro Baptist Church to burn Qurans if Dove doesn't (Kansas)

Springfield Pastor Plans To Burn Quran (Tennessee)

Protester plans to burn Quran on Capitol steps (Wyoming)

It looks like this thing is going to grow.

Michael

[Brant Gaede]

This is all about 15 minutes of fame, reactive stupidity and cultural wimpiness. Americans are free to burn their books; the Muslims will have to live with it. This is how we inform them about freedom: if they can't get it intellectually they'll get it by bitch-slapping, but one way or the other they'll get it unless we cringe in the corner over some nut in Florida who has more balls then our combat general who must have armed our troops with paintball guns. (General Petraeus as a senior probably heard Ayn Rand at West Point in 1974. It didn't do him much good.)

--Brant

(Ayn Rand was especially powerful because she was a woman speaking like a man should speak but men didn't speak because of intellectual/cultural castration so she became their uncrastrated selves.)

Edited September 10, 2010 by Brant Gaede

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Brant,

Living in Brazil for over 30 years has definitely colored my outlook on government. When I see Obama's administration, I see so much that is familiar that it hurts.

As a general rule of thumb, with Obama's folks you can take the opposite of what a person says to be what he really does. In the present case, I see a bunch of piety among high-profile government people as they comment about the misdeeds of a dude with a congregation of 50.

Talk about the Evans Law of Inadequate Paranoia kicking in. What are these folks really doing? Just being wimps? Or showing integrity? Or what?

I doubt it. I don't think they care two hoots about the Muslim issue right now. They have other fish to fry and this is a good opportunity to fry some.

I honestly think some of our dear leaders are using this situation to get some quick intelligence for some short-term military gains so Obama doesn't sink altogether, and as a bonus, be able to set up some kooky Americans (the ones who are starting to sign on to Qur'an burning) as future scapegoats and targets--when they need them, of course.

I definitely do not think things are as they seem to be here, nor do I think the mainstream media is reporting it well.

Michael

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

So long as I am in Evans Law of Inadequate Paranoia mode, why not throw this on the fire?

U.S. Has 'No Strategy' to Confront Homegrown Terror, Security Group Warns

Hey, I've got an idea, and let's pass this idea on to Obama & Co.

Why not make a new government agency to deal the "homegrown terror" threat and some new, stricter laws?

I tell ya', this whole thing stinks.

Michael

[Jerry Biggers]

How's this for an unintended consequence? (Or worse, an intended consequence?)

Westboro Baptist Church to burn Qurans if Dove doesn't (Kansas)

Springfield Pastor Plans To Burn Quran (Tennessee)

Protester plans to burn Quran on Capitol steps (Wyoming)

It looks like this thing is going to grow.

Michael

Holy Book is a misnomer. Insofar as "holy" means "Belonging to, derived from, or associated with a divine power," I do not believe that the Bible, the Koran, the Bhadavsd-Gita, etc., are holy, because they were written by men, not by deities. They have no mystical powers and do not glow in the dark (an attribute we should not covet, see below).

All books deserve to be protected and revered. Those who burn books merely increase the value of those writings, thus creating the opposite of what the burners intended.

If some of our worst fears become true, and a terrorist nuclear device is set-off in a major U.S. city (as the MSM Cassandras continually like to predict), no doubt it will soon be followed by similar reprisals against targets in countries that are supporting terrorists. They may be glowing in the dark, but not because of holiness. So they will have created not heaven, but hell on earth. For all of us.

[Selene]

So I guess we should practice what we preach Mr. Obiwan, incredible shrinking president...

"On May 5, Army spokeswoman Major Jennifer Willis told Reuters that at Bagram Air Force Base in Afghanistan "the Bibles shown on Al Jazeera's clip were, in fact, collected by the chaplains and later destroyed. They were never distributed."

Today, Christian Broadcasting's David Brody says 'the Bibles were burned because the rules on the base say that all garbage is burned at the end of the day. But just asking here; if the U.S. Military seized a stack full of Korans, would they be burned? You think that might cause a little outrage in the Muslim world?'"