Obama endorses the Ground Zero mosque

[Darrell Hougen]

You accuse them of money laundering and supporting terrorism. Those are pretty hefty accusations.

The hypocrisy is that you'd expect people not to assume you're guilty without you being found guilty yet you don't afford the same courtesy to others. That's a bit hypocritical.

See this link:

Sept. 10, 2003 update: Matthew Epstein of the Investigative Project points out today in testimony before the U.S. Senate Judiciary Committee ("Saudi Support for Islamic Extremism in the United States") that a fourth CAIR-connected person has been indicted on terrorism, money laundering or fraud related charges. Ghassan Elashi was, according to articles of incorporation filed with the Texas Secretary of State on September 29, 1998, a founding board member of CAIR's Texas chapter. Then, in December 2002, Elashi and his four brothers were charged with "illegal exports, making false statements on export declarations, dealing in the property of a designated terrorist, conspiracy, and money laundering."

Darrell

[sjw]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/religion/7999250/Australian-lawyer-smokes-pages-of-Bible-and-Koran-asking-Which-is-best.html

Youtube video pulled, world outraged at the philistine lack of respect for political-correctness fascism. I did find this:

Shayne

[sjw]

Here's the original, I wonder if Youtube censored or if the person submitting pulled it:

http://fiveaa.com.au/video_alex-stewart-burns-the-bible-and-koran_106508

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Shayne,

You're on the wrong thread. It would be good to post that stuff here (I called it "Holy Smoke").

Michael

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

This is something that should give folks a bit of a pause:

Associate of Ground Zero Imam Is a 9/11 'Truther'

Meredith Jessup

The Blaze

September 13, 2010

From the article:

A founding member of an organization run by imam Feisal Abdul Rauf, the lead protagonist for the proposed Cordoba mosque near Ground Zero, has made claims that the attacks of Sept. 11, 2001 were an "inside job" and that Muslims have been falsely and improperly made into scapegoats.

According to a report from the New York Post, Faiz Khan has preached at the proposed Cordoba site on at least two separate occasions in the past and partnered with Rauf for years in the American Society for the Advancement of Muslims. The Post reported today that Khan also serves on the advisory board of Muslims for 9/11 Truth and co-founded the Muslim-Jewish-Christian Alliance for 9/11 Truth (MUJCA). On the MUJCA Web site, Khan wrote: "the inescapable fact [is] that 9/11 was an inside job."

"The prime factor for the success of the criminal mission known as 9/11 did not come from the quarter known as 'militant Islam,' although the phenomenon known as 'militant Islamic networks' may have played a partial role, or even a less than partial role — perhaps the role of patsy and scapegoat," Khan wrote.

The video below is O'Reilly interviewing Roy Locker, the managing editor for The Investigative Project on Terrorism. It speaks for itself:

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As to their remarks about Rauf, I'm becoming more and more convinced that he's in all this stuff for the money, not for ideology. I knew people like him within the Muslim community in Brazil.

His flag flies with the money wind, not with peacemaking, not with terrorists, not even with Islam as far as I am concerned. I sincerely believe he will not denounce terrorists, etc., because people associated with them give him money. If he offended them, the money would dry up.

And I believe that's as far as it goes with him. If he could make a killing on the land for the Cordoba project, enough so he did not need to rely on those other folks, I believe he would sell it to a crazy Islamophobic Zionist--the kind hell-bent on conquering all of North Africa in the name of Israel--and sleep well that night, chuckling at his own business shrewdness.

Some of the people next to him, though, that's another story...

Michael

[sjw]

This is something that should give folks a bit of a pause:

On the contrary, I find it silly. A lot of people do not believe the official story regarding 9/11. You can search around regarding polls, e.g.:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/September_11_attacks_opinion_polls

It may be a minority who believe the US government was involved in 9/11, but it's definitely not a "fringe" view. Which makes me wonder whether this association of 9/11 truthers with terrorists is being done on purpose.

Shayne

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

This is something that should give folks a bit of a pause:

On the contrary, I find it silly. A lot of people do not believe the official story regarding 9/11...

Shayne,

So?

Does this mean you don't want people to have the right to disagree or to voice concerns about the people building the GZ mosque?

If you simply find it silly, that's OK. That's your right.

There are plenty of other people who do not find it silly. I think they are interested in looking at that stuff.

As to my own concerns, you asked me on another thread if you had to reach for your gun. That's reasonable.

In fact, I feel the same way. I want to make sure with this mosque thing that I will not have to reach for mine.

Michael

[sjw]

Shayne,

So?

Does this mean you don't want people to have the right to disagree or to voice concerns about the people building the GZ mosque?

If you simply find it silly, that's OK. That's your right.

There are plenty of other people who do not find it silly. I think they are interested in looking at that stuff.

As to my own concerns, you asked me on another thread if you had to reach for your gun. That's reasonable.

In fact, I feel the same way. I want to make sure with this mosque thing that I will not have to reach for mine.

Michael

I never said anything about me reaching for a gun, I said I was concerned about guns being put to *my* head.

I don't understand your other points. I'm simply saying that an association with 9/11 truth means nothing at all. It's like saying he's Mormon. Lots of people believe in both, that makes them in the minority, not "terrorist fringe."

Shayne

[Robert Campbell]

Dana Milbank thinks Imam Abdul Rauf is mainly in it for the publicity:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/09/13/AR2010091304060.html?hpid=opinionsbox1

Robert Campbell

[Robert Campbell]

I'm simply saying that an association with 9/11 truth means nothing at all. It's like saying he's Mormon.

Shayne,

Would you say that a belief in the black helicopters means nothing at all?

What about a belief that HIV was created in a US government lab in order to kill African-Americans?

Robert Campbell

[sjw]

I'm simply saying that an association with 9/11 truth means nothing at all. It's like saying he's Mormon.

Shayne,

Would you say that a belief in the black helicopters means nothing at all?

What about a belief that HIV was created in a US government lab in order to kill African-Americans?

Robert Campbell

Obviously they mean *something*, what I meant by "nothing" is "nothing of any relevance concerning ties to terrorism." 9/11 truth is a broad set of beliefs ranging from those who believe the investigation wasn't actually completed to proper standards to those who positively think there was US involvement to those who think only Israel was involved, etc. etc. A large fraction of US citizens hold a view somewhere in this range.

BTW, I've seen a black helicopter. It was a helicopter painted black. Is this of some significance?

Shayne

[Robert Campbell]

Shayne,

There's no meaning to a Muslim who occasionally works as a preacher endorsing the view that Osama bin Laden wasn't behind 9/11?

The black helicopters were, according to a widespread conspiracy theory of the 1990s, manned by United Nations military personnel. Believers thought they were being surreptitiously introduced into the United States in preparation for a transnational coup. There was at one time a Republican in Congress (Helen Chenoweth of Idaho) who believed in the black helicopters.

Robert Campbell

[sjw]

There's no meaning to a Muslim who occasionally works as a preacher endorsing the view that Osama bin Laden wasn't behind 9/11?

It's no more concerning to me than a preacher who says that wine gets turned into the blood of Christ when you drink it. The whole world is chock full of nuts. There are far more nutty views than the idea that hey--maybe your government, who steals and lies and assaults innocent people all the time--might not be telling the whole truth about 9/11.

The black helicopters were, according to a widespread conspiracy theory of the 1990s, manned by United Nations military personnel. Believers thought they were being surreptitiously introduced into the United States in preparation for a transnational coup. There was at one time a Republican in Congress (Helen Chenoweth of Idaho) who believed in the black helicopters.

Well, I've seen black helicopters flying in the general vicinity of a military base, so I'd say they're real. Can't say who was in them or what they were doing.

Shayne

[Selene]

Shayne:

"It's no more concerning to me than a preacher who says that wine gets turned into the blood of Christ when you drink it."

Just for the record, the transubstantiation* takes place before the person drinks the "wine" or takes the "host" or wafer.

*"The application of the foregoing to the Eucharist is an easy matter. First of all the notion of conversion is verified in the Eucharist, not only in general, but in all its essential details. For we have the two extremes of conversion, namely, bread and wine as the terminus a quo, and the Body and Blood of Christ as the terminus ad quem. Furthermore, the intimate connection between the cessation of one extreme and the appearance of the other seems to be preserved by the fact, that both events are the results, not of two independent processes, as, e.g. annihilation and creation, but of one single act, since, according to the purpose of the Almighty, the substance of the bread and wine departs in order to make room for the Body and Blood of Christ. Lastly, we have the commune tertium in the unchanged appearances of bread and wine, under which appearances the pre-existent Christ assumes a new, sacramental mode of being, and without which His Body and Blood could not be partaken of by men. That the consequence of Transubstantiation, as a conversion of the total substance, is the transition of the entire substance of the bread and wine into the Body and Blood of Christ, is the express doctrine of the Church (Council of Trent, Sess. XIII, can. ii)."

Adam

[sjw]

Has some entertainment value. Vigorously supports 9/11 truth, vigorously wants Muslims out of America (his tirade at the end about Muslims reminds me of Peikoff).

Shayne

[sjw]

Daniel Ellsberg regarding Wikileaks and how far you can trust government officials:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/39179092#39179092

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

I never said anything about me reaching for a gun, I said I was concerned about guns being put to *my* head.

Shayne,

Correct. Sorry. I read it too fast. I even made a post on that thread saying you could put your guns away.

That's two mistakes of that nature within a week I also misspelled Darrell's name.

I repeated the error in both cases.

Dayaamm!

At least I can correct these mistakes. I guess I'm following Strunk's advice (he's the guy who wrote The Elements of Style). I paraphrase from memory: "If you don't know how to pronounce a word, say it loud! SAY IT LOUD!"

btw - I do like the mental image of you hauling out your guns to protect your rights. That's what I saw in my mind when I first read your sentence.

Michael

[sjw]

Correct. Sorry. I read it too fast. I even made a post on that thread saying you could put your guns away.

That's two mistakes of that nature within a week I also misspelled Darrell's name.

I repeated the error in both cases.

Dayaamm!

Well, I made my own mistake in presuming why you made the errors, I just figured there was some illogical thing going on in your head that I didn't understand and didn't want to understand. I should have corrected you the first time.

At least I can correct these mistakes. I guess I'm following Strunk's advice (he's the guy who wrote The Elements of Style). I paraphrase from memory: "If you don't know how to pronounce a word, say it loud! SAY IT LOUD!"

Yes, I usually use that rule in all meaningful interactions -- I press disagreements just to make sure it's not stemming from miscommunication. If you assume the customer is always right, you might think he means something he actually doesn't. So you have to argue (in a polite way of course).

btw - I do like the mental image of you hauling out your guns to protect your rights. That's what I saw in my mind when I first read your sentence.

Sounds romantic. But I'm not a martyr, I'll take what rights my masters hand to me and do what I can with them. Free speech being among the most important. If they take that one away then, as Ayn Rand also said, I'll have to reconsider.

Shayne

[Robert Campbell]

It looks increasingly as though Imam Abdul Rauf has suckered a couple of real estate developers into investing in a project that has no chance of ever being built.

See David Frum's piece

http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2010/08/10/david-frum-is-the-ground-zero-mosque-a-publicity-stunt/

and the New York Post item he references, confirming that the second building on the site has not been purchased by the developers ... and belongs to Consolidated Edison.

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/manhattan/half_baked_mosque_8ItuaW0WIByZa5xZ0rCmpJ

Rotsa ruck selling an abandoned, damaged former Burlington Coat Factory in lower Manhattan during a recession...

El-Zanaty and crew should've taken Donald Trump's offer and run.

Robert Campbell

[Robert Campbell]

Here's another piece that kind of got overlooked at the time it appeared.

Walid Shoebat points out that while Imam Abdul Rauf loves to tell the Aspen crowd and the English-language media about the wonders of interfaith dialogue, he's downright cynical about it when commenting to a Middle Eastern audience in Arabic:

http://pajamasmedia....inglepage=true.

Robert Campbell

[BaalChatzaf]

Has some entertainment value. Vigorously supports 9/11 truth, vigorously wants Muslims out of America (his tirade at the end about Muslims reminds me of Peikoff).

Shayne

Compare the above with this:

http://www.youtube.c...feature=related

Especially the last two or three minutes.

Which has been set to music thus:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8602483019158148765#

Ba'al Chatzaf

Edited September 23, 2010 by BaalChatzaf