Godless Grief

[Mike Renzulli]

I had the opportunity to briefly read C.J. Jones's book Godless Grief. It stated much of what I had originally read in the first book I read by Theresa Rando titled How to Go On Living When Someone You Love Dies.

Also, I was turned off by Ms. Jones's reeling against selfishness and greed in one of the chapters of her book.

If you do suffer the loss of a loved one, I would recommend Dr. Rando's book rather than Ms. Jones's. Dr. Rando's is not only just as comprehensive but also more widely available and competitively priced.

While Dr. Rando does believe in God, the references to her personal beliefs are a paragraph or two of the book and are hers alone. She also points out how kids can lose their faith after a parent or loved one dies but that's it.

Otherwise, Dr. Rando makes no attempt to prosthelyze <sp> for religion and her information is very good.

Also, you could even toss in reading the chapter on death that George Smith makes in his book Why Atheism? and maybe even Richard Dawkins's remarks from his book The God Delusion.

Edited July 26, 2010 by Mike Renzulli

[kiaer.ts]

Also, you could even toss in reading the chapter on death that George Smith makes in his book Why Atheism? and maybe even Richard Dawkins's remarks from his book The God Delusion.

You mean where Dawkins says we shouldn't despair too much because we can only be six sevenths sure that our loved ones actually are dead and not just in some other imaginable state?

[Xray]

Also, you could even toss in reading the chapter on death that George Smith makes in his book Why Atheism? and maybe even Richard Dawkins's remarks from his book The God Delusion.

You mean where Dawkins says we shouldn't despair too much because we can only be six sevenths sure that our loved ones actually are dead and not just in some other imaginable state?

If Dawkins actually said that, what is the basis for this (inane imo) calculation? Since any "other imaginable states" can't be the object of empirical study, coming up with "six sevenths" here is ridiculous.

The only thing such calculation reveals is something about Dawkins himself: it tells us that he is not a 100 per cent believer in non-transcendence.

Edited July 27, 2010 by Xray

[kiaer.ts]

As far as grief is concerned, I am all for it. It is a tribute to value. One does not grieve for what one has not loved. Grief is the final tribute we can pay. I lost a sister when she was twenty and my love was murdered in a car jacking. This is not an unimportant subject for me.

That being said, Dawkins is a profoundly silly man who has done nothing but damage with his anti-concepts of the selfish gene and the meme. Ernst Mayr, the late dean of evolutionary biology, gives a good summary of the problems with Dawkins biology in his book What Evolution Is. Merlin Donald criticizes the anti-concept of the meme in A Mind So Rare. Dawkins is a socialist and a skeptic and in biology a rationalist. I would describe him as the Bertrand Russell of the turn of the milennium.

Edited July 28, 2010 by Ted Keer

[kiaer.ts]

That being said, Dawkins is a profoundly silly man who has done nothing but damage with his anti-concepts of the selfish gene and the meme. Ernst Mayr, the late dean of evolutionary biology, gives a good summary of the problems with Dawkins biology in his book What Evolution Is. Merlin Donald criticizes the anti-concept of the meme in A Mind So Rare. Dawkins is a socialist and a skeptic and in biology a rationalist. I would describe him as the Bertrand Russell of the turn of the milennium.

And he's an elitist. Sorry I left that out.

[Mike Renzulli]

I apologize for the delay in responding to you.

I am not entirely sure what Dawkins said in his book with regards to this which is why I included maybe in my original post. I will check his book The God Delusion today and see what he actually says unless you would like to quote from The Gold Delusion and tell us Dawkins's views on death and dying from the book itself.

Dawkins has stated in articles I have find on the internet that fear of death is illogical.

Christopher Hitchens made a very good point that I think came from a public speech he made that can be found on YouTube. He said we should not be afraid of death but it makes sense to be afraid of dying itself. I have come to understand that Dawkins makes a similar point in The God Delusion too.

I believe Hitchens stated that its mainly the faithful who scare people into wondering if they will go to heaven/nirvana which explains why many religionists fear of death and dying could keep them in the fold of their religions since they want to be sure their souls will go on after they die.

I know I subscribed to this view when I was a Christian.

Also, you could even toss in reading the chapter on death that George Smith makes in his book Why Atheism? and maybe even Richard Dawkins's remarks from his book The God Delusion.

You mean where Dawkins says we shouldn't despair too much because we can only be six sevenths sure that our loved ones actually are dead and not just in some other imaginable state?

Edited August 2, 2010 by Mike Renzulli

[Xray]

Dawkins has stated in articles I have find on the internet that fear of death is illogical.

Imo Dawkins's attitude here disregards the feelings associated with the ultimate fact death confronts us with, and the emotional effect the death of others has on us. While we all have the cognitive insight into death of a living organism being part of nature, the grief unleashed by the loss of loved ones and friends, as well as grieving for victims one never knew personally - the victims of injustice who were not even allowed to live a life in human decency before their death: starved children, people killed in death camps, in war zones, etc. - all this has a profound impact on us. The fear about how exactly we ourselves are going to die one day can't be soothed either by a mere comment that fear of death is illogical (or irrational).

Is "godless" grief harder to deal with than grief when you are a believer? Having been in grieving situations both as a Christian and later as an agnostic (but leaning more toward atheism), I personally don't have made the experience that it is harder (or easier). I believe dealing with grief is a highly individual issue, depending on various factors, among them several which are not correlated with a person's belief (or non-belef) in transcendence.

Edited August 18, 2010 by Xray

[kiaer.ts]

I apologize for the delay in responding to you.

I am not entirely sure what Dawkins said in his book with regards to this which is why I included maybe in my original post. I will check his book The God Delusion today and see what he actually says unless you would like to quote from The Gold Delusion and tell us Dawkins's views on death and dying from the book itself.

Dawkins has stated in articles I have find on the internet that fear of death is illogical.

Christopher Hitchens made a very good point that I think came from a public speech he made that can be found on YouTube. He said we should not be afraid of death but it makes sense to be afraid of dying itself. I have come to understand that Dawkins makes a similar point in The God Delusion too.

I believe Hitchens stated that its mainly the faithful who scare people into wondering if they will go to heaven/nirvana which explains why many religionists fear of death and dying could keep them in the fold of their religions since they want to be sure their souls will go on after they die.

I know I subscribed to this view when I was a Christian.

Also, you could even toss in reading the chapter on death that George Smith makes in his book Why Atheism? and maybe even Richard Dawkins's remarks from his book The God Delusion.

You mean where Dawkins says we shouldn't despair too much because we can only be six sevenths sure that our loved ones actually are dead and not just in some other imaginable state?

Come to think of it I never fear the possibility of hell when I was a believing Christian - and I have never feared being dead. The dying part may be unpleasant - I really feel sorry for Hitchens since metasticzed Esophageal Cancer has a 3% 5 year survival rate, and its symptoms are quite unpleasant. I am no fan of suicide, but I would consider it in that case.