Are we At War with Islam? Check Your Premises!

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

By doing it my way, I get the added benefit of such people thinking twice before spending their time on writing long bigoted pieces and polluting this forum with their hatred.

There's less mess to clean up. And fewer flame wars.

In other words, by lowering the noise level to slightly below shouting, we can focus on actual ideas...

Michael

[jriggenbach]

By doing it my way, I get the added benefit of such people thinking twice before spending their time on writing long bigoted pieces and polluting this forum with their hatred.

Oh, you mean like those people who write long, rambling pieces in which they growl incoherently about other, unnamed people who think still other people are "stewpid"? You mean those people who appear to have adopted the "actual idea" that anyone who notices differences from individual to individual in intellectual talent is somehow an advocate of preventing other people from "thinking for themselves"?

I myself find such people entertaining. Take their apparent belief that the simple act of using the spelling "stewpid" (instead of the more conventional "stupid") somehow refutes the simple observation that the average human has about the intelligence of a lukewarm bowl of oatmeal - this is richly comical. So, of course, is their apparent failure to grasp that most people are too stupid to think for themselves, which is why they don't do it.

Stick around here on OL. The entertainment never ends.

JR

Edited July 31, 2010 by Jeff Riggenbach

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Jeff,

You wouldn't be looking down your nose at anyone, now would you?

Nah...

Why would I ever think that?

Michael

[Brant Gaede]

Churchill:

I like pigs.

Dogs look up at us and cats look down, but pigs treat us as equals.

--Brant

meow!

[jriggenbach]

Jeff,

You wouldn't be looking down your nose at anyone, now would you?

Nah...

Why would I ever think that?

Michael

I can't look up my nose at very many people, Michael. I'm 6'4".

Do I consider myself the intellectual superior of those with the intelligence of a lukewarm bowl of oatmeal? Yes. Why shouldn't I? Are the latter legion? Yes. Does this mean I think the latter shouldn't "think for themselves"? No. Of course, they'll botch the job, but that's not the question, is it?

What's your point?

JR

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

What's your point?

Jeff,

Not much other than responding to pointless stuff like self-aggrandizing mockery of others...

Michael

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Jeff,

All right, all right.

You found me out.

I do have a secret agenda.

I'm out to prove that you do not hold a monopoly on pissing people off over nothing.

I can do it, too.

Michael

[blackhorse]

This kind of stuff happens all too often (here in the U.S.A.!)

http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/campus-apostate-former-uc-irvine-muslim-student-union-member-%E2%80%94-and-former-muslim-%E2%80%94-speaks-out/#comments

We are at war with islam both militarily and ideologically.-anyone who may dispute this is free to live in any islamic nation and extol its virtues.

[Brant Gaede]

This kind of stuff happens all too often (here in the U.S.A.!)

http://pajamasmedia....s-out/#comments

We are at war with islam both militarily and ideologically.-anyone who may dispute this is free to live in any islamic nation and extol its virtues.

I don't have time right now for this "we" war as I'm at war with our insanely stupid government.

--Brant

get your enemies prioritized, please!

[BaalChatzaf]

This kind of stuff happens all too often (here in the U.S.A.!)

http://pajamasmedia....s-out/#comments

We are at war with islam both militarily and ideologically.-anyone who may dispute this is free to live in any islamic nation and extol its virtues.

I don't have time right now for this "we" war as I'm at war with our insanely stupid government.

--Brant

get your enemies prioritized, please!

Wait until the Jihadists explode a dirty radioactive bomb in Manhattan. Then you will be focused.

Ba'al Chatzaf

[Brant Gaede]

This kind of stuff happens all too often (here in the U.S.A.!)

http://pajamasmedia....s-out/#comments

We are at war with islam both militarily and ideologically.-anyone who may dispute this is free to live in any islamic nation and extol its virtues.

I don't have time right now for this "we" war as I'm at war with our insanely stupid government.

--Brant

get your enemies prioritized, please!

Wait until the Jihadists explode a dirty radioactive bomb in Manhattan. Then you will be focused.

Ba'al Chatzaf

I've been "focused" since I was eleven years old (1955). If such a bomb is exploded it will be because of deficiencies of "our insanely stupid government."

--Brant

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

I just noticed that this is in the wrong section. I am moving it to "Mideast." But I'll leave a link behind.

Michael

[Libertarian Muslim]

Hmmm lots of interesting comments here.

Is the West at war with Islam?

No, to assert so is to say that the majority of Muslims are cowards and not living up to their religious obligation to fight against the West.. Nothing could be further from the truth, we're not afraid and I could assure you that if it were indeed the case that the West and Islam were at war that you'd most certainly know it for sure and wouldn't need to ask the question.. Every Western nation would be on fire.. I'm not just talking about a car bombing here or there, or even planes flying into buildings so infrequently as they have been.. I can tell you very clearly that if those fear mongers were right and we really were at war that you'd have open and intense war and in fact, by now it would be over and done with with absolute destruction on all sides and yet we'd still reign victorious..

However, this is not the case, there is no war.. The majority of Muslims love the West despite the imperialism the West has shown in the lands that Muslims tend to reside.. I lived in the Middle East, the only thing that the majority of Muslims feel towards the West in general is envy, in living in free and open societies where people can have free speech and live their lives with comparatively little interference by the government etc than they face now within their own nations.

There are two groups of people that promote the idea that the West is at war with Islam..

The first are the Al Qaeda, Al Shabab, Taliban like 'Islamic' extremists who use it as a rallying cry to recruit and indoctrinate ignorant people to their causes and the second group seems to be right wing extremists within the West that hate everything about Islam and want to wipe it off of the face of the planet..

Both groups are incredibly small and so I say that we should try to convince them that there is no war between and that everyone can all just get along..

Of course should that fail.. I say we get a small piece of land in the world big enough to fit both groups and watch them battle it out to the death like on that Condemned movie.. At least then we can be entertained and also we don't have to deal with their extremist sensationalized rhetoric and hate speech every day and we can just live our lives peacefully..

[Rich Engle]

It's spelled "stoopid."

rde

Soaking in tub of lukewarm oatmeal (w/ pancake syrup)

[Philip Coates]

> if it were indeed the case that the West and Islam were at war that you'd most certainly know it for sure and wouldn't need to ask the question.. Every Western nation would be on fire. [Adonis]

I think you're right. And more: It seems to me that throughout history whenever there have been religious wars and bloodlettings, external (like the Crusades) or internal (like the Inquisition, the Protestant Reformation, the pogroms), it has always been tiny groups of elites from the church or hte state manipulating and urging this and getting other small groups to do their killing. Never have entire civilizations or masses of people wanted to kill and die for their god or because he has been insulted.

> I lived in the Middle East, the only thing that the majority of Muslims feel towards the West in general is envy, in living in free and open societies where people can have free speech and live their lives with comparatively little interference by the government etc than they face now within their own nations.

Adonis, I'd like to hear more about your 'biography'. Were the schools good? What was your education like in (I don't recall what country your are from)? In your experience, did you find that most of the people tend to give lip service to their religion like they do in much of the advanced West? I had a muslim roommate when I first lived in San Francisco and what struck me was how secular he was. Other than multiple praying every day and no alcohol, I recall it seemed most of his thought was toward every day living - his job, women, etc.

[blackhorse]

Beware the religion that can espouse this ideaology;

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2007/03/taqiyya-about-taqiyya.html

http://www.islam-watch.org/Others/Taqiyya-Deception-Islam.htm

Edited August 7, 2010 by blackhorse

[blackhorse]

Adonis, where are the islamic nations that defend individual rights and liberty and embrace reason? Where liberty is - islam isn't.

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

... I say we get a small piece of land in the world big enough to fit both groups and watch them battle it out to the death like on that Condemned movie.. At least then we can be entertained and also we don't have to deal with their extremist sensationalized rhetoric and hate speech every day and we can just live our lives peacefully..

Adonis,

Hear hear.

Let the haters hate each other and leave the rest of us out it.

Michael

[9thdoctor]

Beware the religion that can espouse this ideaology;

Adonis, where are the islamic nations that defend individual rights and liberty and embrace reason? Where liberty is - islam isn't.

It would be easy to come up with comparable examples from the other Abrahamic religions, in ideology and history, so easy that I’m not going to bother. By what process and which political policies has religious hegemony been weakened historically? When, where, and how? And did intolerance (however vestigial) help or hurt the process?

[Libertarian Muslim]

I think you're right. And more: It seems to me that throughout history whenever there have been religious wars and bloodlettings, external (like the Crusades) or internal (like the Inquisition, the Protestant Reformation, the pogroms), it has always been tiny groups of elites from the church or hte state manipulating and urging this and getting other small groups to do their killing. Never have entire civilizations or masses of people wanted to kill and die for their god or because he has been insulted.

Exactly, whilst I do believe that the majority of Muslims are ignorant to Islam's real connection towards ideologies such as Libertarianism due to their dumbing down over more than a thousand years of oppressive and monarchs and dictators, I do also know that very few espouse hatred for different beliefs and ideologies.. Yes, most Muslims despise imperialism and occupations, we all do.. Most Muslims also felt very insulted by the cartoon incidents where under the guise of 'free speech' cartoonists decided to draw very derogatory depictions of the Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him.

But the fact is, despite the media's excessive coverage of such incidents and blowing it out of proportion, out of 1.5 billion Muslims, very few numbering in their thousands actually rioted or harmed anyone for this.. That's not even 1% of our population yet it was portrayed as if all of us were..

The fact is that instead of rioting, most Muslims expressed their disgust with their wallets and there were huge boycotts of Danish goods within the Muslim world which did indeed harm the Danish economy.

In my opinion however, even the boycotts were an unnecessary reaction and instead this event should have first been seen as a perfect time to engage in frank, open dialogue and discourse about the Islam in a peaceful manner to show the beauty of Islam. If this had been done, a better relationship between the Muslim world and Europe could have been established and the next time a cartoonist or movie maker decided to try an incite a reaction with their work then the rest of Europe would have seen them not of the bastions of freedom of speech that they have been portrayed as and instead for the hatemongers that they really are.

Adonis, I'd like to hear more about your 'biography'. Were the schools good? What was your education like in (I don't recall what country your are from)? In your experience, did you find that most of the people tend to give lip service to their religion like they do in much of the advanced West? I had a muslim roommate when I first lived in San Francisco and what struck me was how secular he was. Other than multiple praying every day and no alcohol, I recall it seemed most of his thought was toward every day living - his job, women, etc.

I was born and raised in Australia and lived most of my life there except for a short stint in New Zealand in 2006. In 2008 I received a scholarship to study Arabic at the University of Qatar. They seemed however, to be a misunderstanding as I was put into a beginners class with people who had been studying Arabic for a two years at university whereas I did not even know the alphabet. I exited the course early and started working for a renowned interfaith organisation by the name of The Doha International Center for Interfaith Dialogue.

I worked for this organization for a few months as a Public Relations Officer and Interfaith Worker. I quickly learned that most people within the organization were not as sincere as I had initially hoped about creating change and in addition to that found some discrepancies with some of the money that was flowing and decided that I would make my stay within the organization a short one.

I was then requested to assist someone who was from a very well known family in the US as he'd spent most of his life after the age of 12 in prison and needed to get his life on track. So I got us both jobs teaching English in Syria and we both started working there.. It didn't go as well as I'd anticipated with this person so after a few of months we went our separate ways. I stayed in Syria and continued working and doing some studies in Islam and after 9 months I got sick of the BS that I saw there including the lack of freedom and the secret police following me around so I left and returned to New Zealand to study in December 09 where I've been ever since.

In regards to your friend, well the truth is that one of the most important aspects of Islam is the way you treat other people, not harming those who are not trying to harm you and trying to do good in the world.. Very simply, to treat others as you'd have them treat yourself and therefore, if your friend did the right thing by people, then he did what he should have and I couldn't judge him.

Beware the religion that can espouse this ideaology;

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2007/03/taqiyya-about-taqiyya.html

http://www.islam-watch.org/Others/Taqiyya-Deception-Islam.htm

I'm sorry but your understanding of Taqiyya is flawed.

If someone came to you and said, 'If you don't stop being an Objectivist I'll kill you.. Renounce it now or die' would you renounce it?

If so, then no one could blame you, you had no other option to save your life because you were going to be killed for your beliefs.. That is taqiyya..

You can not use the excuse of taqiyya to mislead people at will, it's very dishonest to do so and we consider that lying..

A proper explanation can be found from the following links from the Islamic Encyclopedia at Al-Islam.org

al-Taqiyya/Dissimulation (Part I)

al-Taqiyya/Dissimulation (Part 2)

al-Taqiyya/Dissimulation (Part 3)

Adonis, where are the islamic nations that defend individual rights and liberty and embrace reason? Where liberty is - islam isn't.

Hmmm, Blackhorse, there are no Islamic nations, only nations in the Middle East and elsewhere that have a majority Muslim population.. There is currently no state that can be defined as an Islamic State in the world despite the claims of Iran and Saudi Arabia, they simply don't fit the criteria of what an Islamic State should be and the truth is, if you want to find the closest thing to what an Islamic State should be, then all you need to do is take a look at two documents from the 18th Century, the Declaration of Independence and the United States Constitution. The ideals held within in limiting government and guaranteeing rights are found within Islam.. In fact it might surprise you but John Locke himself was influenced by many Islamic Teachings..

The fact is that over the last 1000+ years, the greatness of Islamic Philosophy has been lost amongst Muslims and adopted by the West.. My experience in the Middle East showed me that due to the tyrannical dictators and monarchs that have ruled the Muslim lands and their way of controlling the people, that the very concepts of critical thinking and analysis have largely been lost amongst Muslims, especially within the Muslim world.. When you lose the logic, the critical thinking and analysis, you become people who learn simply by wrote and don't understand the notions of context.. That is what gave birth to the types of mentalities that have arisen in the Muslim world..

The idea that we need to rid the world of Islam to stop the violence and barbarism of the Muslim world is simply wrong.. The fact is that the Arabs were far worse as pagans than they are as Muslims.. Instead, if the US were actually adhering to the ideas of the Founding Fathers it could lead by example and invite the Muslim world to that way of thinking.. And the Muslim world would come in droves.. More than one Islamic scholar has stated that they lived all their lives in the Middle East and didn't find Islam until they went to the USA..

Hear hear.

Let the haters hate each other and leave the rest of us out it.

Michael

Amen to that..

[blackhorse]

Adonis, have you read the constitutions of these islamic nations and their laws? Islam IS the law.-some nations may choose to cherry pick some Koranic and islamc mandates over others.

I have yet to see the islamic teachings that embrace reason and liberty even to a minimal degree. Maybe you could cite them for me. If Islam in it's original form is so beholden to the general idea's of liberty and reason I certainly haven't heard or read about in either its history or historical figures.

Islam has never embraced reason to a degree that it as allowed for critical thinking to supersede its mysticism. You speak of an islam that does not and cannot exist. Maybe it is an islam that you wish would exist, but it is nothing more than that.

A liberty loving muslim who embraces reason is an oxymoron - it's beliefs will not allow it.

Edited August 7, 2010 by blackhorse

[Libertarian Muslim]

Adonis, have you read the constitutions of these islamic nations and their laws? Islam IS the law.-some nations may choose to cherry pick some Koranic and islamc mandates over others.

Hmmm again, this is a mistake many people make.. Blackhorse, there are no 'Islamic States' around today.. Many may claim to be but that doesn't grant them the status..

For example.. If I start calling myself, Dr Adonis MD, does it mean that I am now qualified to start treating the sick? Surely the fact that I have adopted the Dr. and MD onto my name now qualifies me to do so right? Wrong.. To be a physician I have to fulfill a certain criteria of learning and examination etc and then I will be qualified to do so..

It's the same with an Islamic State as mandated by Islamic doctrine, just because these countries claim to be Islamic States or Islamic nations and claim to be basing their laws on Qur'anic laws, it doesn't mean that they're actually following Islamic law, they may feel they are following their interpretation of such but the fact is that they simply don't understand the correct procedures and laws that were adhered to by the Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him..

I have yet to see the islamic teachings that embrace reason and liberty even to a minimal degree. Maybe you could cite them for me. If Islam in it's original form is so beholden to the general idea's of liberty and reason I certainly haven't heard or read about in either its history or historical figures.

Islam has never embraced reason to a degree that it as allowed for critical thinking to supersede its mysticism. You speak of an islam that does not and cannot exist. Maybe it is an islam that you wish would exist, but it is nothing more than that.

The question is, where have you looked Blackhorse? Certainly you won't find any of the beauty of Islam within the anti-Islam websites.. Just as I won't find anything good about Objectivism in anti-Objectivism websites..

Have you ever studied anything about Islamic philosophy? I'm sure if you did, you'd find that it has influenced a great many Western thinkers including John Locke.

A liberty loving muslim who embraces reason is an oxymoron - it's beliefs will not allow it.

What specific beliefs are you referring to? You're making a very big statement there so I wonder if you'd back it up?

[kiaer.ts]

Note the exact parallel to the pre-1989 Communists who said that there were not any "real" socialist countries in the world. regardless of what the people's states called themselves.

The parallels between the disaffected marxist adventurers of old and the disaffected adventurers of today is no more than the difference between a sickle and a crescent, and perhaps a an increase in the taste taste for bondage and passive anal sex with swarthy bearded men. Spoiled rich kids in funny headgear adopt a murderous ideology. Some only lie on its behalf. others actually kill.

But none goes out and teaches his adopted brothers not to kill. Why not? If the criticism is sincere, then why isn't the criticism taken to the nations where it's needed?

Note that the common factor among the adventurers is hatred for western "imperialism." Such bullshit. If the west or America wanted they could easily destroy and conquer. What this hatred for imperialism always means is hatred for daddy. A daddy who didn't love you, or who loved you in the wrong ways. Look at the childhoods of Che Guevara and John Walker Lindh and you will find a nerd with daddy issues turned into a murderous monster by a sociopathic ideology.

At least while [international] Marxist-Leninism is a criminal conspiracy, it isn't a criminal conspiracy in the name of a lunatic camel-thief and pederast molester of nine-year old girls, like Muhammad, piss be upon him.

Edited August 8, 2010 by Ted Keer

[Libertarian Muslim]

Note the exact parallel to the pre-1989 Communists who said that there were not any "real" socialist countries in the world. regardless of what the people's states called themselves.

I'm sorry if you find it hard to comprehend, but the fact is that unless the nation fulfills the criteria set within the Qur'an and Sunnah properly then they aren't Islamic States, no matter how much they espouse to be... Just like the US is not a real capitalist country anymore..

The parallels between the disaffected marxist adventurers of old and the disaffected adventurers of today is no more than the difference between a sickle and a crescent, and perhaps a an increase in the taste taste for bondage and passive anal sex with swarthy bearded men. Spoiled rich kids in funny headgear adopt a murderous ideology. Some only lie on its behalf. others actually kill.

Wow, the filth that you spill out.. You seem a bit obsessed with such tastes..

It is not abnormal for new Muslims (and those who were born as Muslim but not really raised in an 'Islamic household')to adopt some radical ideas and even to go and fight in some cases.. Learning a whole new belief system is very difficult and a part of the process for many, including myself is to put a wall up around yourself that allows you to process the information slowly.. Unfortunately it gives you a very limited view on Islam, dictated by black and white absolutism which leads many down extreme tracts.. The majority of new Muslims eventually find balance throughout this process of growing up and understanding however there are those who simply get too caught up in such ways of thinking that they never change or they find a group of people who also think the same and they keep encouraging each other.. This is an issue, and the Muslim community is aware about it.. That's why most Muslim communities are starting programs for new Muslims to guide them towards achieving that balance without having to go through a lot of the headaches..

I myself was quite radical at one stage of my life and to be frank, it could have gone either way.. However, I was blessed with many experiences throughout my life that taught me that these people teaching me those things could not be trusted and Islam was not the absolutist, black and white, judgmental and extreme ideology that others were leading me through and I separated from them and found my own path..

But none goes out and teaches his adopted brothers not to kill. Why not? If the criticism is sincere, then why isn't the criticism taken to the nations where it's needed?

See, again.. Where are you looking? First of all, which brothers are you referring to? Are all of my Muslim brothers and sisters engaged in warfare against the West? Absolutely not.. Out of 1.5 billion Muslims, the amount of them that would be engaged in extremist activities like Al Qaeda or the Taliban would number in the thousands, that's an incredibly small number and is certainly not representative of us.

In addition to that, there are Muslims who go out and try and preach directly to the Muslims who are at risk in places like Pakistan where proper Islamic teachings are not available and groups like the Taliban and Al Qaeda can easily indoctrinate and brainwash the civilian population.

Note that the common factor among the adventurers is hatred for western "imperialism." Such bullshit. If the west or America wanted they could easily destroy and conquer. What this hatred for imperialism always means is hatred for daddy. A daddy who didn't love you, or who loved you in the wrong ways. Look at the childhoods of Che Guevara and John Walker Lindh and you will find a nerd with daddy issues turned into a murderous monster by a sociopathic ideology.

I hate any imperialism, not just Western.. I believe all people have the right to choose for themselves their own destiny rather than have it dictated to them by foreigners.. In fact, isn't that what a large part of the US War of Independence was about?

At least while Marxism is a criminal conspiracy, it isn't a criminal conspiracy in the name of a lunatic camel-thief and pederast molester of nine-year old girls, like Muhammad, piss be upon him.

See, this here really indicates what type of person you are, you act more on emotions like hate and allow them to dictate the way you lead your life.. That prevents you from learning and gaining a better understanding as to what you are against.. The fact is that he wasn't a camel thief nor was he married to a 9 year old..

[kiaer.ts]

Zachary Adam Chesser

More advice from a funny-hatted Jihadi wannabe telling how he "fears" for someone's safety:

"Zachary Adam Chesser was your average white kid growing up, playing football, studying Japanese, drawing rebellious images on notebooks. So how did he turn to belonging to a U.S. Muslim group warningSouth Park creators Matt Stone and Trey Parker of their possible demise?"