Ayaan Hirsi's Prejudice Confirmed

Libertarian Muslim · July 17, 2010

Prejudice confirmed
July 17, 2010 - 12:40PM
Ayaan Hirsi Ali's convert-like zeal is both disturbing and delusional, writes Hilary McPhee.
AYAAN Hirsi Ali has brains and beauty and is a gift to those of us who like our prejudices confirmed. In Australia, where she returns regularly to promote her books, she reinforces our idea of the Muslim world as monolithic, mediaeval and dangerous. Islam is all bad, religion is the problem, Allah is the villain. The West is better in every respect. These days she proclaims the American way with stars in her eyes.
Hirsi Ali's early life was difficult and spent on the move between Somalia, Saudi Arabia, Ethiopia and Kenya. Had she grown up elsewhere — in parts of the Lebanon, Jordan, Turkey or Teheran perhaps — she might have been able to give us a more complex and sympathetic picture of the Muslim world, but I suspect not. As each of us is shaped by family and culture, it was her dysfunctional family that formed her, and gave her the courage and impetus to escape — a harsh mother she despised, an educated politicised father she idealised until "he fell back into a trance of submission to Allah", a younger sister she had hopes for but who married and retreated from the life being offered in Europe.
Hirsi Ali's story is extraordinary and her books, mixtures of memoir and analysis wearing their dramatic single-word titles like brand names, are highly popular throughout the West. A Muslim apostate is both consolation and vindication in uncertain times.
Infidel told the story of her family and her flight to Holland to escape an arranged marriage, how she learnt the ropes of the welfare system and the workforce, before gaining a university education. How she became a member of the Dutch Parliament, worked with immigrant women, scripted the film Submission, of Koranic verses projected onto a naked woman's body, a provocation for which the producer, Theo van Gogh, was murdered and she received death threats. From then on, she was provided with bodyguards by the Dutch Government until a political furore over her citizenship status caused her to leave Holland for the US.
In 2006, she accepted a job with the ultra-conservative think tank, the American Enterprise Institute, which had provided much of the rationale for military intervention in Iraq and for rebuilding the image of Israel in the world through a conservative alliance with America. Nomad is dedicated to the past president, Chris DeMuth, "my surrogate abeh" (father).
Hirsi Ali describes this time as her intellectual coming-of-age. With her now private bodyguards, she travels the US and those parts of the world that welcome her message, lecturing on the evils of Islam and explaining her remedies, scornful of more than 1.5 billion Muslims. After Allah, Muslim women receive most of the blame — childlike, unable to manage money, trapped in their marriages, pouring their frustration into damaging their daughters.
We are never reminded that more than 50 countries from Indonesia to Iran through Africa and the Middle East have Muslim majorities and vastly different cultures and histories.
A perspective on the role played by poverty, illiteracy and rural conservatism is missing.
The books aren't much good. Infidel, ghostwritten in Dutch and published in English translation in 2007, came at the right time and sold hugely. Nomad is an awkward retelling of her story through the lens of imagined contact with her sister and her dying father, her hated mother and her dead grandmother. Framed by a chapter called "A Letter to My Grandmother" and an epilogue called "A Letter to My Unborn Daughter", are large chunks of out-of-date polemic echoing Bernard Lewis and Samuel P. Huntington. The "clash of civilisations" gets a rerun.
Her targets are predictable. Multiculturalism is utopian, producing victims and welfare dependence. Feminists are naive to suggest that many women in the West are also manipulated, complicit, objectified. Germaine Greer cops it for cultural relativism; Tariq Ramadan for being Tariq Ramadan.
There is a depressing absence of hope or empathy. Micro-financing, which has for years been helping women out of poverty, doesn't rate a mention; nor does the improved literacy in some Islamic countries; nor the belated but huge investment in education in some rich Arab countries. The growing numbers of Muslim women in public life and scholars reinterpreting the Koran and Shar'ia, described by Isobel Coleman in Paradise Beneath Her Feet, do not fit her thesis and are ignored.
Hirsi Ali has joined the ranks of celebrity atheists. Martin Amis and Christopher Hitchens speak of her beauty and tiny wrists. The latter is in a state of adoration: "For me the three most beautiful words in the emerging language of secular resistance to tyranny are Ayaan Hirsi Ali."
I wonder what they make of one of the "remedies" in Nomad that Muslims would be better off being Christian and that the Vatican joins the campaign to save Muslims from themselves.
There is something disturbing and slightly delusional here, the zeal of the convert protecting herself from facing the consequences of her own actions and theories, perhaps. The cult that surrounds Hirsi Ali could engulf her. She's a one-woman band against her own culture, a hero to herself as well to the men who worship her. I can't help but fear for her.
Ayaan Hirsi Ali is in conversation on July 29 at the Capitol Theatre. Bookings: wheelercen-tre.com.
Hilary McPhee, editor, writer and former publisher, has been liv-ing and working in the Middle East. Her selec-tion of recent Australian writing, Wordlines, is published by Five Mile Press this month.
Source: http://www.theage.com.au/entertainment/books/prejudice-confirmed-20100716-10e7n.html

Edited July 17, 2010 by Adonis Vlahos

Robert Campbell · July 19, 2010

The cult that surrounds Hirsi Ali could engulf her. She's a one-woman band against her own culture, a hero to herself as well to the men who worship her. I can't help but fear for her.

Adonis,

Since you appear to endorse the viewpoint taken in this article, could you hazard a guess as to what Ms. McPhee "fears for" in Ms. Hirsi Ali's future?

Robert Campbell

Mike Renzulli · August 7, 2010

I think the only person being delusional is the author of this essay. She cannot prove her premise and yet relies on ad-hoc accusations and red herrings to make her case.

What is disturbing is that the author may have not ever read Hirsi Ali's book Infidel or, if she did, went into reading the book with pre-concieved notions as to what the book is about and/or ignorance about Islam.

I base my relationships on the kind of relations I have with others regardless of their race or religion. If they do not try to decieve or lie to me and do not commit acts of aggression against me I will trade and might even look to start a friendship or acquaintance of some kind with them.

I have no problem trading and being in relations with Muslims so long as they do not commit acts of violence against me or anyone else.

In terms of Ayaan Hirsi Ali's experience, the fact that she has to live in hiding with body guards since her life is still in danger as the result of her work speaks volumes of the people who she has angered. Hirsi Ali has obviously told the truth or those who want her killed or attempt to slander her reputation would instead seek to engage, debate, or discuss her experiences and points in an effort to prove her wrong.

Having been a Christian for over 30 years I can associate a similar experience to what Ms. Hirsi Ali went through. Though I did not have my genitals mutiliated, like her ability to think, my ability to think nearly was.

Fortunately, and thanks to Ms. Rand's philosophy, I have been able to not only assert my individuality but my sanity and live a life of reason and rationality too.

Ayaan Hirsi Ali deserves a Nobel Prize for her efforts. I will not hold my breath that the Nobel Committee will give her one due to the fact that they have given people like Al Gore and Paul Krugman awards.

Edited August 7, 2010 by Mike Renzulli

Xray · August 11, 2010

The cult that surrounds Hirsi Ali could engulf her. She's a one-woman band against her own culture, a hero to herself as well to the men who worship her. I can't help but fear for her.
Adonis,
Since you appear to endorse the viewpoint taken in this article, could you hazard a guess as to what Ms. McPhee "fears for" in Ms. Hirsi Ali's future?
Robert Campbell

Adonis,

That would interest me too: What do you think McPhee "fears for" Ali Hirsi? Your posting the article here indicates that you consider it as relevant for the discussion. So where exacactly do you see its relevance? Please be specific.

Edited August 11, 2010 by Xray

Libertarian Muslim · August 13, 2010

Because there are extremists out there that would kill Ayaan Hirsi for what she says, just as they've done with any of their opposition whether those opposition hate Islam, or are Muslims who simply hate the cancerous ideals of Wahhabism. They do need to be stopped.

Despite the lies that Hirsi has told and the misguided hate she incites towards Islam, rather than the practices of culturalism and tribalism that she has seen, I don't believe that killing anyone is going to benefit..

In fact, the Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him was insulted and lied about more during his own life than he has been in the past 10 years and he didn't react like that.. So why should we?

blackhorse · August 13, 2010

Muslims still attacking her.

Xray · August 14, 2010

Because there are extremists out there that would kill Ayaan Hirsi for what she says, just as they've done with any of their opposition whether those opposition hate Islam, or are Muslims who simply hate the cancerous ideals of Wahhabism. They do need to be stopped.

And how do you think they are going to be stopped? Any suggestions?

What history tells us is that if no one speaks up in public about violation of human rights by extremists of whatever provenience, those atrocities will continue.

Those who do speak up and accuse can indeed risk their lives, but these people have both courage and a commitment so strong that speaking up in the name of the victims is of greater value to them than their lives.

Giordano Bruno for example was burnt at the stake for speaking up about a scientific truth, and he considered this truth as of more value than his life.

It was the speaking up in public by victims like Ali Hirsi about the horrific practice of genital mutilation which has led to campaigns for its abolishemnt.

Despite the lies that Hirsi has told

Would you please name those lies.

Most people are born into a religion without their consent. I for example was baptised as a baby and raised a Catholic. In past centuries, one could not just unassign and leave, as it is possible today.

Suppose someone has been born a Muslim and wants to leave:

In the Wikipedia article, it says:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_conversion
"It is common belief among Muslims that everyone is Muslim at birth[14][15] [derived from a single source and brought into being by the single entity] but sometimes chooses to take steps to revert back to their origins. While conversion to Islam is among its most supported tenets, conversion from Islam to another religion, apostasy, is considered to be a sin, and carries with it the penalty of death.[16]"

I then went to [16] and got the foilowing link: http://www.al-islam.org/short/apostasy/5.htm

What I want to know from you, Adonis:

1) Is what it says in the article "Apostasy is equal to treason" accurate in that its explanation why Islam does not allow apostasy can be regarded as representing the belief accurately?

If yes,

2) Do you agree with what, according to the Shari'ah law, awaits the apostate?

If yes, why?

If not, why not?

Edited August 14, 2010 by Xray

Libertarian Muslim · August 15, 2010

And how do you think they are going to be stopped? Any suggestions?
What history tells us is that if no one speaks up in public about violation of human rights by extremists of whatever provenience, those atrocities will continue.
Those who do speak up and accuse can indeed risk their lives, but these people have both courage and a commitment so strong that speaking up in the name of the victims is of greater value to them than their lives.
Giordano Bruno for example was burnt at the stake for speaking up about a scientific truth, and he considered this truth as of more value than his life.

Do you honestly think that people want to kill her because she speaks out against honor killings? Female genital mutilation? etc.. Absolutely not, there are millions of Muslims out there that speak out against such barbarity and no harm comes to them.. That is because the practices mentioned are not Islamic, they're cultural and you can find them amongst all religious groups in those regions.. Including Christians too..

The truth is that the people out there that want to kill her want to do so because she lies about Islam and the Prophet and intentionally tries to offend Muslims and insult the Prophet, she associates those disgusting practices with Islam when they are absolutely not a part of it.

Is it right that she should be killed for this? No.. She should be dealt with in another matter as she already has been, discredited and shown to be the liar that she is.. And those who do try and harm her should be put in prison for their crimes..

It was the speaking up in public by victims like Ali Hirsi about the horrific practice of genital mutilation which has led to campaigns for its abolishemnt.

What was she a victim of exactly?

Would you please name those lies.

You don't know? She lied about everything.. About living in a war zone.. About forced marriage.. About honor killings etc.. Just so she could get asylum in the Netherlands.. She's been exposed too and admitted to most of it.. She is a liar and lied to get where she wanted in life.. For fame and money also..

It was all exposed on a documentary called 'Holy Ayaan'

Most people are born into a religion without their consent. I for example was baptised as a baby and raised a Catholic. In past centuries, one could not just unassign and leave, as it is possible today.
Suppose someone has been born a Muslim and wants to leave:
In the Wikipedia article, it says:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_conversion
"It is common belief among Muslims that everyone is Muslim at birth[14][15] [derived from a single source and brought into being by the single entity] but sometimes chooses to take steps to revert back to their origins. While conversion to Islam is among its most supported tenets, conversion from Islam to another religion, apostasy, is considered to be a sin, and carries with it the penalty of death.[16]"

I then went to [16] and got the foilowing link: http://www.al-islam.org/short/apostasy/5.htm
What I want to know from you, Adonis:
1) Is what it says in the article "Apostasy is equal to treason" accurate in that its explanation why Islam does not allow apostasy can be regarded as representing the belief accurately?
If yes,
2) Do you agree with what, according to the Shari'ah law, awaits the apostate?
If yes, why?
If not, why not?

I don't believe at all that one is obliged to stay Muslim if they want to leave Islam and certainly don't believe that there is a death penalty for those that leave Islam. In fact, to force people to stay Muslim is against any form of logic because they will only become hypocrites and unhappy.

I would much prefer a thousand apostates I knew of than even one hypocrite.

Those that were punished during the prophet peace be upon him's life were not punished for leaving Islam, rather they were punished for treason against the state, they not only left Islam but they went as far as to aid the Pagan Quraish against the Islamic State..

They did not leave the state and renounce their citizenship so they could fight against the people of Medina, rather they acted subversively against the State by plotting and acting..

I see no problem with such a punishment because their actions were that of treason. In most countries the punishment for treason is the death penalty..

Xray · August 16, 2010

editing

Edited August 16, 2010 by Xray

Xray · August 16, 2010

And how do you think they are going to be stopped? Any suggestions?
What history tells us is that if no one speaks up in public about violation of human rights by extremists of whatever provenience, those atrocities will continue.
Those who do speak up and accuse can indeed risk their lives, but these people have both courage and a commitment so strong that speaking up in the name of the victims is of greater value to them than their lives.
Giordano Bruno for example was burnt at the stake for speaking up about a scientific truth, and he considered this truth as of more value than his life.
Do you honestly think that people want to kill her because she speaks out against honor killings? Female genital mutilation? etc.. Absolutely not, there are millions of Muslims out there that speak out against such barbarity and no harm comes to them..
That is because the practices mentioned are not Islamic, they're cultural and you can find them amongst all religious groups in those regions.. Including Christians too..

I'm very interested in being provided with sources indicating that millions of Muslims speak out in public about such barbarity.

It was the speaking up in public by victims like Ali Hirsi about the horrific practice of genital mutilation which has led to campaigns for its abolishemnt.
What was she a victim of exactly?

Is it true that Ali Hirsi was genitally mutilated (Im going by the Wikipedia article on her)?

If yes, how can you even ask what she was a victim of?

Would you please name those lies.
You don't know? She lied about everything.. About living in a war zone.. About forced marriage.. About honor killings etc.. Just so she could get asylum in the Netherlands.. She's been exposed too and admitted to most of it.. She is a liar and lied to get where she wanted in life.. For fame and money also.. It was all exposed on a documentary called 'Holy Ayaan'

Thanks Adonis for providing the links in your post # 8.

I haven't yet had time to go through the videos in detail, but will do so as soon as I have the time.

If you are interested, we can go through them acribically together, which would also imply examining the videos themselves as sources, and then try to find out where they qualify as documenting the truth about a fact and where they fail to provide sufficient evidence to meet this burden of proof.

In the course of our research, we would also have to go through source like the following:

http://www.zemblabla.nl/English%20Text%20about%20The%20Holy%20Ayaan.pdf

So just let me know if you are interested in doing more detailed research on this issue.

In the Wikipedia article, it says:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_conversion
"It is common belief among Muslims that everyone is Muslim at birth[14][15] [derived from a single source and brought into being by the single entity] but sometimes chooses to take steps to revert back to their origins. While conversion to Islam is among its most supported tenets, conversion from Islam to another religion, apostasy, is considered to be a sin, and carries with it the penalty of death.[16]"

I then went to [16] and got the foilowing link: http://www.al-islam.org/short/apostasy/5.htm
What I want to know from you, Adonis:
1) Is what it says in the article "Apostasy is equal to treason" accurate in that its explanation why Islam does not allow apostasy can be regarded as representing the belief accurately?
If yes,
2) Do you agree with what, according to the Shari'ah law, awaits the apostate?
If yes, why?
If not, why not?
I don't believe at all that one is obliged to stay Muslim if they want to leave Islam and certainly don't believe that there is a death penalty for those that leave Islam. In fact, to force people to stay Muslim is against any form of logic because they will only become hypocrites and unhappy.

Does this mean you personally disagree with what the Sha'aria law says about the apostate? [bolding in the quoted text mine], and would be opposed to the Sharia'ah law being inflicted on an apostate?

http://www.al-islam.org/short/apostasy/5.htm
Apostasy is equal to treason:
Why does Islam not allow apostasy? Apostasy or irtidãd in Islam is equal to treason.
The Western world limits treason to political and military terms. In the USA, treason consists "only in levying war against Americans, and in adhering to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort." However, sometimes even the Western world stretches the concept of political treason to include things which are non-politics or non-military matters. For example, in England, treason includes violating the King's consort, or raping the monarch's eldest married daughter, as well as the sexual violation of the wife of the eldest son and heir. Even now, "polluting" the Royal bloodline or obscuring it is included in the definition of treason.[5]
Why has England included such non-political and non-military matters in treason? It has done so because the Royal family and the purity of its bloodline is one of the most significant parts of the British society and culture. In Islam, the concept of treason is not limited to political and military aspects; it also has a spiritual and cultural dimension to it. In the Islamic order of sacredness, Allah, then the Prophet, and then the Qur'ãn occupy the highest positions. Tawhid, nubuwwa, and qiyãma form the constitution of Islam. Just as upholding and protecting the constitution of a country is sign of patriotism, and undermining it is a form of treason - in the same way open rejection of the fundamental beliefs of Islam by a Muslim is an act of treason. Apostasy, i.e., the public declaration of rejecting the fundamentals of Islam, has also negative influence on the Muslim society; it is indeed a major fitna. And that is why Islam has prescribed harsh punishment for irtidãd.
It must be emphasized that the irtidãd that we are discussing here involves open rejection, without any force and with full realization of what one's statements or actions imply. If a Muslim has a genuine doubt on an Islamic matter, that process of doubting does not automatically classify him as a murtad. As long as he is still in state of doubt, the punishment of irtidãd is suspended.[6] A murtad must fully realize the implications of his open rejection and what it means--casting doubt on the truth and honesty of Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) as the Messenger of God.
The punishment prescribed by the shari`ah for apostasy is death.
Even the terms used by the shari`ah for apostates give the idea of treason to this whole phenomenon. "Murtad" means apostate. Murtad can be of two types: fitri and milli.
(1) "Murtad Fitri" means a person who is born of a Muslim parent and then he rejects Islam. "Fitrah" means creation. The term "murtad fitri" implies that the person has apostated from the faith in which he was born.
(2) "Murtad Milli" means a person who converted to Islam and then later on he rejects Islam. Milli is from millat which means religion. The term "murtad milli" implies that the person has apostated from his religion and the Muslim community.
In the first case, the apostasy is like the treason against God; whereas in the second case, the apostasy is like the treason against the Muslim community. Probably, that is why the Sh`iah jurisprudence deals with these two kinds of murtads differently:
· A former kãfir who became a Muslim and then apostates (murtad milli), he is given a second chance: if he repents, then he is not to be killed; but if he does not repent, then he is to be killed.
· But one who is born as a Muslim and then apostates (murtad fitri), he is to be killed even if he repents. It is important to understand that in case a murtad fitri repents, Allãh may accept his repentance and he may be forgiven in the hereafter, but he still has to go through the punishment prescribed for his treason in this world.[7]
This punishment is only applicable in case of apostasy by men; in case of women, the punishment is not death but life imprisonment. And if such a woman repents, then her repentance is accepted and the punishment is lifted.
In writings of some of the Sh`iah jurists, one gets the sense that the punishment of murtad is to be implemented only in dãru 'l-Islãm (i.e., the Muslim world), and that if the murtad flees to dãru 'l-kufr (i.e., the abode of kufr), then he is not to be pursued.[8]
Notes:
[5] See Professor Ali Mazrui, The Satanic Verse or a Satanic Novel, p. 4-5, who probably is the first Muslim to have used the term treason in comparison with apostasy in the context of the Rushdie affair.
[6] Shaykh Muhammad Hasan al-Najafi, Jawãhiru 'l-Kalãm, vol. 6 (Tehran: Dãr al-Kutub al-Islãmiyya, n.d.) p. 46. According to Fakhrul Muhaqqiqin al-Hilli, it is obligatory to resolve the doubt(s) that are raised by the potential apostate. See his, Iidhãhu 'l-Fawã'id, vol. 4 (Qum: al-`Ilmiyyah, 1387) p. 550.
[7] For a detailed discussion on the acceptance of the repentance (tawba) by a murtad fitri, see the transcript of the late Ayatullãh al-Khu'í's lectures by Shaykh al-Gharawi, at-Tanqíh, vol. 3, p. 224-229.
[8] Shaykh al-Mufid, al-Muqni`ah (Qum: Jami`a Mudarrisin, 1410) pl 781; Ibn Hamzah at-Tusi, al-Wasilah ila Nayli 'l-Fadilah (Qum: Maktaba as-Sayyid al-Mar`ashi, 1408) p. 424-5; Muhaqqiq al-Hilli, Sharã'i` al-Islãm, vol. 4 (Tehran: al-Istiqlãl, 1409) p. 961-2.

Edited August 16, 2010 by Xray

studiodekadent · August 18, 2010

I have enormous respect for Ayaan Hirsi Ali. When she was interviewed on the 7.30 Report (a current affairs show in Australia), her benevolent sense of life could be felt through the screen. She's an amazing human being.

But I have disagreements with her, and most of them can be boiled down to methodological collectivism.

In short I believe she treats Christianity and Islam as monolithic entities with no variance amongst various subtypes or individual believers.

It is understandable why she'd do this. Her experiences with Islam were immensely negative, whilst her experiences with Christianity have been (I'm tempted to say atypically) positive. I believe this has, to some extent, distorted her perspective.

Lets start with Christianity, shall we? (and my source for her views is her interview with Reason magazine, see http://reason.com/archives/2007/10/10/the-trouble-is-the-west)

Where I come from, in Islam, the only concept of God is you submit to Him and you obey His commands, no quarreling allowed. Quarreling or even asking questions means you raise yourself to the same level as Him, and in Islam that’s the worst sin you can commit... Catholics should be proselytizing about a God who is love, who represents a hereafter where there’s no hell, who wants you to lead a life where you can confess your sins and feel much better afterwards. Those are lovely concepts of God. They can’t compare to the fire-breathing Allah who inspires jihadism and totalitarianism.

Ali discusses only the Catholic concept of God, but she discusses no other concepts of God to be found in Christianity. What about the Calvinist conception of God? A mad celestial dictator that creates entities solely to torture them for his own glory? The kind of God that Calvinist Christians believe in is indeed very close to the fire-breathing Allah. The Evangelical concept of God isn't particularly nice either. Also, even the Catholic conception of God isn't exactly all rosy.

Well, it (Islam) hasn’t been tamed like Christianity. See, the Christian powers have accepted the separation of the worldly and the divine. We don’t interfere with their religion, and they don’t interfere with the state. That hasn’t happened in Islam.

Brackets are mine.

Ali is correct that once, Christian powers were not tame; they were part of the State. But Ali seems to believe that Christianity itself has been tamed.

Really?

Fundamentalist Evangelicalism, people? Catholic priests denying politicians in their congregation the Eucharist unless the politician voted in a way the priest approved of? Christian religious powers may not be directly using violence but they are indeed preaching the subversion of secular States and the institution of religious policies. Christianity has not been "tamed." Plenty of Christians are, themselves, content with keeping State and Religion separate, but many Christian powers are not.

Also, historically, Islamic civilization was in many respects more religiously liberal during the Dark Ages. Islamic Spain was by no means perfect but compared to Christian Europe, it was Las Vegas.

Hirsi Ali: Only if Islam is defeated. Because right now, the political side of Islam, the power-hungry expansionist side of Islam, has become superior to the Sufis and the Ismailis and the peace-seeking Muslims.
Reason: Don’t you mean defeating radical Islam?
Hirsi Ali: No. Islam, period. Once it’s defeated, it can mutate into something peaceful. It’s very difficult to even talk about peace now. They’re not interested in peace.

In other words, Ali admits there are nonviolent Muslims. Then she goes back to treating ALL forms of Islam as equally dangerous and toxic. Again, in Islamic Spain there were many peaceful forms of Islam that advocated allegorical rather than literalist interpretation of the Koran.

Do I believe the Islamic world is in need of a Reformation? Very much so. But I think Ali views Christianity through rose colored glasses, and treats both Christianity and Islam as monolithic (she seems to go between acknowledging subtypes and making sweeping generalizations).

Note that I support Ali when we're talking about Wahabbist Islam and Islamic fundamentalism and any form of Islam which believes the State should have any role in (non-coercive) religion. But to equate these sects with "Islam as a whole" is like saying that Catholicism is a representative sample of Christianity (or that Calvinism is, for that matter).

Xray · August 18, 2010

I have enormous respect for Ayaan Hirsi Ali. When she was interviewed on the 7.30 Report (a current affairs show in Australia), her benevolent sense of life could be felt through the screen. She's an amazing human being.
But I have disagreements with her, and most of them can be boiled down to methodological collectivism.
In short I believe she treats Christianity and Islam as monolithic entities with no variance amongst various subtypes or individual believers.
It is understandable why she'd do this. Her experiences with Islam were immensely negative, whilst her experiences with Christianity have been (I'm tempted to say atypically) positive. I believe this has, to some extent, distorted her perspective.
Lets start with Christianity, shall we? (and my source for her views is her interview with Reason magazine, see http://reason.com/archives/2007/10/10/the-trouble-is-the-west)
Where I come from, in Islam, the only concept of God is you submit to Him and you obey His commands, no quarreling allowed. Quarreling or even asking questions means you raise yourself to the same level as Him, and in Islam that’s the worst sin you can commit... Catholics should be proselytizing about a God who is love, who represents a hereafter where there’s no hell, who wants you to lead a life where you can confess your sins and feel much better afterwards. Those are lovely concepts of God. They can’t compare to the fire-breathing Allah who inspires jihadism and totalitarianism.
Ali discusses only the Catholic concept of God, but she discusses no other concepts of God to be found in Christianity. What about the Calvinist conception of God? A mad celestial dictator that creates entities solely to torture them for his own glory? The kind of God that Calvinist Christians believe in is indeed very close to the fire-breathing Allah. The Evangelical concept of God isn't particularly nice either. Also, even the Catholic conception of God isn't exactly all rosy.

It is indeed not rosy at all. What many also don't know is that in the Christian faith, the act of baptism is considered as an indelible imprint on the soul, making the baptised individual forever a member of Christ's corpus mysticum. The soul is brandmarked for eternity, so to speak.

Cutting oneself off the corpus mysticum by abandoning the faith is compared to amputating a limb which then becomes worthless and will be thrown away. Where it will be thrown away is clear: hell is awaiting the apostate.

The big monotheistic religions Islam, Judaism and Christianity have in common the demanding of absolute submission by humans to the will of a supernatural being considered as the almighty creator of the world.

"I am a slave to the Creator", poster Adonis Vlahos wrote verbatim on OL, which is as clear as it can get.

Not following the demand of submission to the will of the god will be sanctioned in all three religions, with the nature of the sanctions varying according to what is allowed by a society.

Ali Hirsi using the term "tamed" for the Christian religion is quite revealing; imagine how our world would look like if t this had not happened. But there's a lot more yet to be done.

Edited August 18, 2010 by Xray

Brant Gaede · August 18, 2010

I'm going with God is existence and am giving up my atheism. I submit to it. I worship it. That's that.

--Brant

Libertarian Muslim · August 18, 2010

Is it true that Ali Hirsi was genitally mutilated (Im going by the Wikipedia article on her)?
If yes, how can you even ask what she was a victim of?

She's lied on record for her own benefit.. This is fact.. So, if I may ask.. Why would I believe anything she says? Would you in any other circumstance accept testimony of a liar or is it your intense hate for Islam that causes you to clutch at straws to the extent that you're willing to ignore the fact that she has lied for her own gain in the past and believe what she says?

The fact is that the tribal practice of Clitoridectomy (removing the clitoris) is forbidden in Islam and the punishment prescribed for the guilty parties of this crime (the people who do the cutting and those who are accessories to it if I'm not mistaken) is death because of the fact that they take from women something which is their right, that is that sex should be enjoyable for them.. Yes, it gets practiced amongst a minority of Muslims who still follow tribalism, but this isn't only amongst the Muslim population there, I know of many Christian Orthodox Ethiopian girls from Ethiopia and Egypt that have had this crime committed against them.. It's a disgusting practice and the only thing that Islam does allow, is a hoodectomy, that is.. Removing the clitoral hood which in fact enhances female response and arousal as opposed to Female Genital Mutliation like the clitoridectomy which tries to remove it.

Yet people like Ayaan Hirsi claim that Islam's teachings are to practice FGM. It's simply not true.

Thanks Adonis for providing the links in your post # 8.
I haven't yet had time to go through the videos in detail, but will do so as soon as I have the time.
If you are interested, we can go through them acribically together, which would also imply examining the videos themselves as sources, and then try to find out where they qualify as documenting the truth about a fact and where they fail to provide sufficient evidence to meet this burden of proof.
In the course of our research, we would also have to go through source like the following:
http://www.zemblabla.nl/English%20Text%20about%20The%20Holy%20Ayaan.pdf
So just let me know if you are interested in doing more detailed research on this issue.

Yes, it is something that needs to be looked into more.

Does this mean you personally disagree with what the Sha'aria law says about the apostate? [bolding in the quoted text mine], and would be opposed to the Sharia'ah law being inflicted on an apostate?

I don't believe it is a practice of Shariah that apostasy is as simple an issue as portrayed and stand by my comments before stating that it's only treason when the apostate fights against the Islamic State without renouncing citizenship or aids the enemies of the state.

Do I believe the Islamic world is in need of a Reformation? Very much so. But I think Ali views Christianity through rose colored glasses, and treats both Christianity and Islam as monolithic (she seems to go between acknowledging subtypes and making sweeping generalizations).
Note that I support Ali when we're talking about Wahabbist Islam and Islamic fundamentalism and any form of Islam which believes the State should have any role in (non-coercive) religion. But to equate these sects with "Islam as a whole" is like saying that Catholicism is a representative sample of Christianity (or that Calvinism is, for that matter).

I think the Muslim world is in need of a reformation of sorts, not saying that Islam needs to be changed, rather the interpretation of Islam by Muslims, needs to be re examined to get the Muslim world back in line with Islamic principles and teachings. The key is education. Once this is done, the majority of the Muslim world will fall into line with the correct teachings and that will leave a few that are hostile towards it.. They will be turned out by their own communities.

I'm going with God is existence and am giving up my atheism. I submit to it. I worship it. That's that.
--Brant

So you believe in God? If so, what brought this change on?

Edited August 18, 2010 by Adonis Vlahos

Brant Gaede · August 18, 2010

I'm going with God is existence and am giving up my atheism. I submit to it. I worship it. That's that.
--Brant
So you believe in God? If so, what brought this change on?

I've told you what my "God" is--it is everything taken in toto. It is existence itself. Now, tell us what yours is. A silly Christian might say He's an old man with a beard in the sky. A serious Christian would speak in pure unconcretable abstractions. As for what brought it on--a minor epiphany.

--Brant

Edited August 18, 2010 by Brant Gaede

Libertarian Muslim · August 18, 2010

I've told you what my "God" is--it is everything taken in toto. It is existence itself. Now, tell us what yours is. A silly Christian might say He's an old man with a beard in the sky. A serious Christian would speak in pure unconcretable abstractions. As for what brought it on--a minor epiphany.
--Brant

Oh, hmmmm what is toto?

What do I believe?

I believe God is the Creator, Engineer, Author, Maintainer and Sustainer of all that is in existence. He is All Knowing, All Powerful and having no equals, no sons, daughters, mothers, fathers, brothers and sisters etc. He needs not rest, nor slumber.. Nor anything to sustain Him..

Brant Gaede · August 18, 2010

I've told you what my "God" is--it is everything taken in toto. It is existence itself. Now, tell us what yours is. A silly Christian might say He's an old man with a beard in the sky. A serious Christian would speak in pure unconcretable abstractions. As for what brought it on--a minor epiphany.
--Brant
Oh, hmmmm what is toto?
What do I believe?
I believe God is the Creator, Engineer, Author, Maintainer and Sustainer of all that is in existence. He is All Knowing, All Powerful and having no equals, no sons, daughters, mothers, fathers, brothers and sisters etc. He needs not rest, nor slumber.. Nor anything to sustain Him..

Toto is the dog in The Wizard of Oz.

--Brant

Edited August 18, 2010 by Brant Gaede

Libertarian Muslim · August 18, 2010

Toto is the dog in The Wizard of Oz.
--Brant

Haha I thought so, I just wanted to make sure before I addressed it.. Didn't want to insult your beliefs and all that jazz

studiodekadent · August 19, 2010

She's lied on record for her own benefit.. This is fact.. So, if I may ask.. Why would I believe anything she says? Would you in any other circumstance accept testimony of a liar or is it your intense hate for Islam that causes you to clutch at straws to the extent that you're willing to ignore the fact that she has lied for her own gain in the past and believe what she says?
Yes, it gets practiced amongst a minority of Muslims who still follow tribalism, but this isn't only amongst the Muslim population there

And it is this tribalist population of Muslims that Ayaan Hirsi Ali was born into.

She lied to get into the Western World. Honestly, considering what she was fleeing from, I don't blame her.

The fact is that the tribal practice of Clitoridectomy (removing the clitoris) is forbidden in Islam and the punishment prescribed for the guilty parties of this crime (the people who do the cutting and those who are accessories to it if I'm not mistaken) is death because of the fact that they take from women something which is their right, that is that sex should be enjoyable for them.. , I know of many Christian Orthodox Ethiopian girls from Ethiopia and Egypt that have had this crime committed against them.. It's a disgusting practice and the only thing that Islam does allow, is a hoodectomy, that is.. Removing the clitoral hood which in fact enhances female response and arousal as opposed to Female Genital Mutliation like the clitoridectomy which tries to remove it.
Yet people like Ayaan Hirsi claim that Islam's teachings are to practice FGM. It's simply not true.

Hoodectomy is still genital mutilation. For that matter I consider infant circumsicion of males to be abhorrent as well. And yes, the practice isn't exclusive to some Muslims; some Christians do it as well. And I agree with you that claiming these Muslims or these Christians as representative samples of all Muslims or all Christians is fallacious.

I think the Muslim world is in need of a reformation of sorts, not saying that Islam needs to be changed, rather the interpretation of Islam by Muslims, needs to be re examined to get the Muslim world back in line with Islamic principles and teachings. The key is education. Once this is done, the majority of the Muslim world will fall into line with the correct teachings and that will leave a few that are hostile towards it.. They will be turned out by their own communities.

Please remember that you separate "Islam" from "Interpretations thereof." That is not something many Muslims do. I assume you agree with Irshad Manji that the pre-Islamic tribalism of the Arabic world often gets package-dealt with Islam and that the two things should be separated (and honestly I agree with you). However, just saying that many Muslims don't agree with you, and I think you come close to declaring them "not Muslims" (you have a frozen abstraction; the wider class being "Muslims" and the subclass being "Muslims who's interpretation of Islam you agree with"). I'm not saying you're wrong theologically or anything, I just think you are freezing your abstractions in the same way that an Evangelical that claims "Catholics aren't Christians" is.

Xray · August 19, 2010

Thanks Adonis for providing the links in your post # 8.
I haven't yet had time to go through the videos in detail, but will do so as soon as I have the time.
If you are interested, we can go through them acribically together, which would also imply examining the videos themselves as sources, and then try to find out where they qualify as documenting the truth about a fact and where they fail to provide sufficient evidence to meet this burden of proof.
In the course of our research, we would also have to go through source like the following:
http://www.zemblabla.nl/English%20Text%20about%20The%20Holy%20Ayaan.pdf
So just let me know if you are interested in doing more detailed research on this issue.
Yes, it is something that needs to be looked into more.

I have now seen all the videos and also went through what it says in the link that criticizes the videos. It looks like there are many distortions in the videos, and the link lists them point per point.

She lied to get into the Western World. Honestly, considering what she was fleeing from, I don't blame her.

I don't blame her either. Hirsi feared she was going to be sent back by the authorities if having "only" given as reason

that she was fleeing from her family.

She's lied on record for her own benefit.. This is fact.. So, if I may ask.. Why would I believe anything she says? Would you in any other circumstance accept testimony of a liar or is it your intense hate for Islam that causes you to clutch at straws to the extent that you're willing to ignore the fact that she has lied for her own gain in the past and believe what she says?

I'm not ignoring anything. My focus is on evidence. Judging from a person having lied in one situation that whatever else he/she says must also be lies is a non-sequitur. From my studies of criminal cases, I know how important it is for investigators to get the complete picture, not just draw conclusions based on isolated items of evidence.

The eye-witness testimonies by Hirsi Ali's relatives about her wedding for example don't qualitfy as conclusive evidence. Have you noticed the slight hesitation before saying "...yes." by one of the eyewitnesses when asked if Hirsi was present?

As for the "aunt" speaking behind a veil - theoretically, this person could be anyone.

When asked why the relatives' statements contradict her own, Hirsi explains it with them feeling shame about the whole situation, hence their the testimony that of course the bride was present her own wedding.

The question about who tells the truth here can't be cleared up because a key piece of evidence is missing: pictures from the wedding showing the couple. Now don't you you think it strange that none of these relatives was able to produce a picture as evidence to show the interviewer? This raises a red flag in my eyes.

As for you asking me if I'm "clutching at straws": the answer is no, since I don't go by the premise that humans are saints.

Yes, it gets practiced amongst a minority of Muslims who still follow tribalism, but this isn't only amongst the Muslim population there
And it is this tribalist population of Muslims that Ayaan Hirsi Ali was born into.

That is exactly the point, studiodekadent.

The Abrahamitic religions are patriarchal because they were all founded in an age of tribalism. And where these religions still play a powerful role in controlling people's lives in society is in those parts of the world which have a lot of patriarchalism and tribalism left.

The less tribalism and patriarchalism there is, the less influential these religions will be, at least in their fundamentalist variety.

The fact is that the tribal practice of Clitoridectomy (removing the clitoris) is forbidden in Islam and the punishment prescribed for the guilty parties of this crime (the people who do the cutting and those who are accessories to it if I'm not mistaken) is death because of the fact that they take from women something which is their right, that is that sex should be enjoyable for them.. , I know of many Christian Orthodox Ethiopian girls from Ethiopia and Egypt that have had this crime committed against them.. It's a disgusting practice and the only thing that Islam does allow, is a hoodectomy, that is.. Removing the clitoral hood which in fact enhances female response and arousal as opposed to Female Genital Mutliation like the clitoridectomy which tries to remove it.
Yet people like Ayaan Hirsi claim that Islam's teachings are to practice FGM. It's simply not true.
Hoodectomy is still genital mutilation.
For that matter I consider infant circumsicion of males to be abhorrent as well.

I too find it abhorrent to perform this procedure on children not being able to refuse. Justifying it with religious or whatever other reasons does not alter the fact one iota that it is violation of a human being's right to intactness of the body.

Male circumcision allowed in Islam is a remainder of (religious) tribalism.

Male Jews were circumcised to "mark" them as members of "God's chosen people". In Islam, male circumcison has its roots in Ishmael being the son of Abraham.

As for female hoodectomy, Adonis's #14 post could give the impression that this is practised to enhance a woman's sexual pleasure. But the issue here is not about medical cases like e. g. excessive hood tissue having a "phimotic" effect.

It might interest Adonis that in 2006, Islamic scholars at a conference in Kairo's Azhar university declared any form of female circumcision as "harmful and un-islamic".

Edited August 19, 2010 by Xray

Libertarian Muslim · August 21, 2010

And it is this tribalist population of Muslims that Ayaan Hirsi Ali was born into.
She lied to get into the Western World. Honestly, considering what she was fleeing from, I don't blame her.

Oh please, Kenya? Kenya is not Somalia and people live good lives there. I have many Kenyan friends and they would be offended at the assertion that someone would have to flee from there. That is precisely why the government of the Netherlands wasn't accepting refugees from Somalia that came from Kenya..

Nevertheless, the point is, she lied for her own benefit, not only to simply get refugee status, but also in her book and other times.. To gain money and fame. So why should I believe anything she says?

Hoodectomy is still genital mutilation. For that matter I consider infant circumsicion of males to be abhorrent as well. And yes, the practice isn't exclusive to some Muslims; some Christians do it as well. And I agree with you that claiming these Muslims or these Christians as representative samples of all Muslims or all Christians is fallacious.

Male circumcision is actually compulsory in Islam and I'm not even going to bother arguing that with you because we're both it's not illegal and is not harmful and parents are legally allowed to choose it for their children.. I will most certainly get my sons circumcised.

Next, to your point that a hoodectomy is FGM.. Female Genital Mutilation is illegal in many countries like the USA and UK and most of the world in fact, however you can still get a hoodectomy in these countries..

I. In the United States (by region)

IA. Northeast

Manchester, New Hampshire

The Plastic Surgery Center

57 Bay Street

Manchester, NH 03104

1-800-640-0290

email: info@plasticsurgerypa.com

Website: http://www.plasticsurgerypa.com/index.cfm?event=CategoryView&CategoryID=49'>http://www.plasticsurgerypa.com/index.cfm?event=CategoryView&CategoryID=49

Duxbury, Massachusetts

Female plastic surgeon:

Christine Hamori, M.D.

Cosmetic Surgery and Skin Spa

95 Tremont Street, Suite 28

Duxbury, MA 02332

Phone: (781) 934-2200

Fax: (781) 934-7301

Email: cah@christinehamori.com

Website: http://www.christinehamori.com'>http://www.christinehamori.com

Dr. Hamori reports that she has had many referrals from this site and is very experienced in this

procedure. Hood removal is not mentioned at her website, but the before and after photos

supplied at her site show excellent results.

Various locations in Connecticut

Greenwich, CT

The Greenwich Center for

Aesthetic Vaginal Surgery

Edward Jacobson, MD

One Perryridge Road

Greenwich, Connecticut 06830

The Summer Street

Surgery Center

1290 Summer St., Ste 3100

Stamford, CT 06905

The Greenwich Hospital

5 Perryridge Road

Greenwich, Connecticut 06830

Tel.: 203-869-8360

Email: drjacobson@cosmeticvaginasurgery.com

Website: http://cosmeticvaginasurgery.com/index.html

Dr. Jacobson also has an office in Beverly Hills, CA (see information for California, below)

New York City (Manhattan)

Female plastic surgeon:

Michelle Copeland, D.M.D, M.D., F.A.C.S.

1001 Fifth Avenue (across from the Metropolitan Museum of Art)

New York, New York

Phone: 212-452-2200

Fax: 212-452-2208

Email: mcopeland@icnt.net

Website: http://www.drcopeland.com'>http://www.drcopeland.com

Clitoral hood removal is not mentioned on the Web page, but Dr. Copeland will make

consultations to perform this surgery upon request.

New York City (Manhattan)

Neil C. Goodman, M.D. and Martin C. Hyman, M.D.

Lite Touch Medical P.C.

7 West 51st St., 2nd Floor

New York, New York 10019

Phone: (212) 397-7650

Fax: (212) 397-7653

Website: http://www.litetouchmedical.com/vaginalrejuvenation2.html'>http://www.litetouchmedical.com/vaginalrejuvenation2.html

Drs. Goodman and Hyman provide a number of before and after pictures of labiaplasties they

have performed, including one that was both a labiaplasty and hoodectomy.

New York City (Manhattan)

John G. Hunter, M.D., F.A.C.S.

47 East 63rd Street

(Btw. Park and Madison Aves.)

New York, NY 10021

Phone: (212) 751-4444

Fax: (212) 753-0516

Website: http://www.labiacosmetic.com'>http://www.labiacosmetic.com

Email: jgh@labiacosmetic.com

Manhattan and Great Neck

Dr. Thomas W. Loeb

994 Fifth Avenue

New York, NY 10028

Phone: (212) 327-3700

Fax: (212) 327-4506

http://www.labialdr.com'>http://www.labialdr.com

Great Neck, New York

1000 Northern Boulevard, Suite 340

Great Neck, NY 11021

Tel: (516) 487-3134

Fax: (212) 327-4506

New York City (Brooklyn):

New York Urologic Institute

Vitaly Raykhman, M.D.

Brooklyn location:

1664 East 14th Street (corner of Kings highway)

Suite 101

Brooklyn, NY 11229

Manhattan location:

New York Urologic Institute

380 2nd Ave. (corner of E. 22nd)

10th Floor, Suite 1000

Phone.: (718) 375-2100

Toll Free: (877) 714-1444

Email: doc@labiaplastysurgeon.com

Website: http://www.labiaplastysurgeon.com/dr-raykhman.html'>http://www.labiaplastysurgeon.com/dr-raykhman.html

Dr. Raykhman only provides before and after photos of labiaplasties he has performed.

Brooklyn

Dr. Ayman A. Shahine MD. FACS, FACOG

334 86th St.

Brooklyn, NY 11209

Phone: 646-385-7882

http://www.labiaplastysurgeon.com/dr-raykhman.html'>http://www.labiaplastysurgeon.com/dr-raykhman.html

New Jersey

Thomas Theocharides, MD

New Beginnings Medical Spa and Vein Institute

30 State Rte. 34 North, Suite 7

Colts Neck, NJ 07722

Phone: 732-308-1818

Fax: 732-308-0810

http://www.mybodybeautiful.net'>http://www.mybodybeautiful.net

Pennsylvania (Philadelphia area)

Mark Solomon, M.D, F.A.C.S.

191 Presidential Blvd., Suite LN 24

Bala Cynwyd, PA 19004

Phone: 610-667-7070

http://www.marksolomonmd.com/'>http://www.marksolomonmd.com/

Washington, D.C. area

Dr. M. Tavallali, M.D., F.A.C.S.

3299 Woodburn Rd., Suite 310

Annandale, VA 22003

Phone: (703) 876-9400

also,

5530 Wisconsin Ave., Suite 1135

Chevy Chase, MD 20815

Phone: (301) 907-3838

Website: http://www.tavmd.com'>http://www.tavmd.com

Baltimore, Maryland

Female plastic surgeon:

Karen E. Boyle, M.D.

Chesapeake Urology Associates at Greater Baltimore Medical Center (GBMC)

Physicians Pavilion North

6535 North Charles Street, Suite 625

Baltimore, MD 21204

Phone: 410-825-5454

Fax: 410-825-5811

Email: kboyle@cua.md

Webpage: http://www.drkarenboyle.com/femalesexualhealth.html'>http://www.drkarenboyle.com/femalesexualhealth.html

IB. Southeast

Atlanta, Georgia

Female plastic surgeon:

Susan E. Kolb M.D.

Plastikos Surgery Center

4370 Georgetown Square

Atlanta, GA 30338

Phone: 770-457-4677

Email: drkolb@mindspring.com (Dr. Kolb would rather be telephoned to discuss the procedure,

however, rather than emailed)

Webpage: http://www.plastikos.com'>http://www.plastikos.com

Clitoral hood removal is not mentioned on the web page, but Dr. Kolb will do consultations to do

this surgery upon request.

Atlanta, Georgia area

Atlanta Urogynecology Associates

John R. Miklos M.D.

3400 Old Milton Parkway

Building C, Suite 330

Alpharetta, Georgia 30005

Phone: 770-475-0862

E-mail: doc@clitoralunhooding.com

Websites: http://www.lvratlanta.com,'>http://www.lvratlanta.com, http://www.clitoralunhooding.com/dr-miklos.html'>http://www.clitoralunhooding.com/dr-miklos.html

His website also includes photos of before and after hoodectomies and labiaplasties.

Boca Raton, Florida

Female plastic surgeon:

Dr. Pamela J. Loftus

900 NW 13th St. Suite 103

Boca Raton, FL 33486

Phone: (561) 394-7494

Website: http://www.drloftusplasticsurgery.com'>http://www.drloftusplasticsurgery.com

Her website lists hoodectomy as one of her specialties and also shows two pictures of results from

labiaplasties she has performed.

Bradenton, Florida

Female plastic surgeon:

Dr. Denise L. Baker

Baker Medical Arts & Wellness Institute

5225 Manatee Avenue West

Bradenton, FL 34209

Phone: (941) 761-9757 or 1-888-50BOTOX

Email: info@twifla.com

Website: http://www.twifla.com/index.html'>http://www.twifla.com/index.html also: http://www.bakermedicalarts.'>http://www.bakermedicalarts.

com/vaginal_rejuvenation.htm

Dr. Baker lists hoodectomy as one of the surgical procedures she offers at the clinic, and also

provides two before and after photos of her results.

Clearwater, Florida

Female plastic surgeon:

Jennifer S. Hayes, DO, FACOOG

2695 Ulmerton Rd.

Clearwater, FL 33762

Phone: (727) 540-0414

Fax: (727) 540-0672

E-mail: drjenniferhayes@gmail.com

Website: http://www.visionarycentreforwomen.com'>http://www.visionarycentreforwomen.com

Fort Lauderdale, Florida

Emerald Lakes Professional Center

Dr. Bernard Stern, M.D.

3109 Stirling Road

Suite 100

Fort Lauderdale, FL

Phone: (954) 981-3223

Cell: (954) 483-7929

Email: doc@labiaplastysurgeon.com

Website: http://www.labiaplastysurgeon.com/dr-stern.html'>http://www.labiaplastysurgeon.com/dr-stern.html

Miami, Florida

Dr. Phillip Craft, M.D.

8720 North Kendall Drive, Suite 112

Miami, FL 33176

Phone: (877) 682-3288

Website: http://www.drphillipcraft.com/Welcome.aspx'>http://www.drphillipcraft.com/Welcome.aspx

Baton Rouge, Louisiana

Dr. Charles Gruenwald, MD FACS

Associates in Plastic Surgery, Baton Rouge Louisiana

8425 Cumberland Place

Baton Rouge, Louisiana 70806

Phone: (225) 924-7514

Email: Dr.C.Gruenwald@gmail.com

Website: http://70.164.22.68/Labiaplasty/

Dr. Gruenwald lists hoodectomy as one of the surgical procedures he offers at the clinic, but only

provides photos of the results of labiaplasties he has performed.

IC. Midwest

Westchester, Hinsdale, and La Grange, Illinois

Dr. Arturo Menchaca, MD

2450 S Wolf Rd.

Suite I

Westchester, Illinois 60154

Phone: 708-492-0650

Fax: 708-492-0647

Hinsdale hospital

120 N. Oak

Hinsdale, Illinois

Phone: 630-856-9000

La Grange Memorial Hospital

5101 S. Willow Springs Road

La Grange, Illinois

Phone: 708-245-9900

Website: http://www.atmenchaca.yourmd.com/'>http://www.atmenchaca.yourmd.com/

Dr. Menchaca supplies before and after pictures of labiaplasties and also clitoral unhoodings at

what he identifies at his “main site,” which can be reached by a click on the right side of the

screen at the site noted here.

Chicago, Illinois:

Dr. Rigo Mendoza, M.D.

Chicagoland Plastic Surgery

1020 East Ogden Avenue

Suite 210

Naperville, IL 60563

Phone: (630) 305-0331

Fax: (630) 305-0289

Watertower Surgicenter

845 North Michigan Avenue

Suite 930E

Chicago, IL 60611

Phone: (312) 251-0331

Center for Reconstructive Surgery

6311 W. 95th Street

Oak Lawn, IL 60453

Phone: (708) 354-8097

Website: http://www.plastic-handsurgery.com/procedures.htm'>http://www.plastic-handsurgery.com/procedures.htm

Chicago, Illinois area

Dr. Allan Parungao, M.D.

610 S. Maple Ave., Suite 2600

Oak Park, IL 60304

Phone: (708) 258-5009

Website: http://parungaopasticsurgery.com/index.html

Chicago, Illinois area

Dr. Otto J. Placik, M.D., F.A.C.S.

Associated Plastic Surgeons, SC

MD Aesthetics Skin Care Center

880 West Central Road

Suite 3100

Arlington Heights, IL 60005

Phone: (847) 398-1660

also,

680 North Lake Shore Drive

Suite 830

Chicago, IL 60611

Phone: (312) 787-5313

Email: doc@labiaplastysurgeon.com

Website: http://www.labiaplastysurgeon.com/dr-placik.html'>http://www.labiaplastysurgeon.com/dr-placik.html

Dr. Placik only provides before and after photos of labiaplasties he has performed.

Two locations in Indiana

Dr. Ronald K. Downs, MD, FACS

Dr. Patrick Viscardi, M.D.

The Centre, P.C.

Comprehensive Plastic Surgery

Website: http://www.thecentrepc.com'>http://www.thecentrepc.com

Elkhart Office

Riverpointe Medical Building

500 Arcade Ave., Suite 300

Elkhart, IN 46514

Phone: 574-296-9100

Fax: 574-293-1511

Chesterton Office

Duneland Health & Wellness Institute

810 Michael Drive, Suite K

Chesterton, IN 46304

Phone: 219-395-9200

Fax: 219-926-3534

Kansas City, Kansas, area:

Premier Plastic Surgery, PA

Dr. Federico Gonzales, M.D., F.A.C.S.

Doctors Building 1

20375 West 151st Street, Suite 370

Olathe, Kansas 66061

Phone: (913) 782-0707

Fax: (913) 782-5813

Website: http://www.ppskc.com/office.html'>http://www.ppskc.com/office.html

Or: http://www.labiaplastysurgeon.com/dr-gonzalez.html'>http://www.labiaplastysurgeon.com/dr-gonzalez.html

Email: doc@labiaplastysurgeon.com

Dr. Stanton only provides before and after photos of labiaplasties he has performed, but his

website states that he will perform clitoral hood removal surgery.

ID. West and Southwest

Bryan, Texas

Board Certified OB/GYN in Bryan Texas, Dr. Royal H. Benson, III has been performing this

surgery for twenty years and has a practice that specializes in female genital refinement

procedures, including hoodectomy, which he lists as one of his specialties. Go to http://www.

femalegenitalrefinement.com/, which also shows several before and after pictures of

hoodectomies (with labiaplasties) he has performed. Dr. Benson also provides a patient case

study.

The Southwest Center for Female Genital Refinement

3740 Copperfield Drive

Suite 105

Bryan, Texas 77802

Phone: 979-412-0358

Fax: 979-776-1314

Dallas, Texas

Dr. Vasdev Rai

Cosmetic Surgical Center

7777 Forest Lane

Suite C-612

Dallas, Texas 75230

Tel.: 972- 992-3511

Toll Free: 800-558-7355

Website: http://www.dallas-labiaplasty.com/clitoral-hood-refinement.html

Phoenix, Arizona

Dr. Scott Gulinson, M.D., F.A.C.O.G.

The Laser Vaginal Rejuvenation Institute of Phoenix

18555 N. 79th Avenue

Suite E-101

Glendale, AZ 85308

Phone: (602) 717-3930

Email: doc@labiaplastysurgeon.com

Website: http://www.labiaplastysurgeon.com/dr-gulinson.html

Dr. Gulinson only provides before and after photos of labiaplasties he has performed.

Denver area: Englewood, Colorado

Dr. Oscar A. Aguirre, M.D. F.A.S.C.O.G.

Pelvic Specialty Care

9800 Mt. Pyramid Court Ste 300

Englewood, Colorado 80112

Phone: (303) 322-0500

Website: http://www.lvrdenver.com/

Hoodectomy is not mentioned at Dr. Aguirre’s website, but his office contacted this website

asking to be listed as one that performed this procedure.

Boise, Idaho

Dean E. Sorensen M.D., F.A.C.S.

Sorenson Cosmetic Surgery Center of Idaho

250 Bobwhite Court, Suite 120

Boise, ID 83706

Tel.: 208-333.0200

Website: http://www.sorensenbass.com/labiaplasty.html

Draper, Utah

Dr. Robert LaVonMoody, DO

Biorestoration Clinic

12340 S 450 E

Draper, UT 84020

Phone: (801) 501-9797

Website: http://www.biorestoration.com

Hood reduction is listed as one of the treatments available at the clinic here: http://www.

biorestoration.com/treatments/tped.html

IE. West Coast

Torrance and Los Alamitos, California

Female plastic surgeon:

Linda Swanson, M.D., F.A.C.S.

23560 Madison Suite #105

Torrance, CA 90505

Phone: 562-596-0018

Fax: 562-596-0113

Email: lindaswansonmd@email.msn.com

Website: http://www.plasticsurgeryforme.com/home.html

Dr. Swanson also has an office in Los Alamitos:

3801 Katella Ave., Suite 402

Los Alamitos, CA 90720

(Same phone, fax, email, and website as above)

Clitoral hood removal is not mentioned on the Web page, but Dr. Swanson will make

consultations to perform this surgery upon request.

Beverly Hills

A plastic surgeon who performs this surgery actually has a web page dedicated to the sorts of

procedures he performs. Most of the information there regarding female genital surgery pertains to

labiaplasty (with before and after pictures provided), but he also mentions removal of an excess of

hood as an available option.

Office Address:

Dr. Gary Alter

416 North Bedford Drive, Suite 400

Beverly Hills, CA 90210

Phone: 310-275-5566

Fax: 310-271-0521

Email: altermd@earthlink.net

Website: http://www.altermd.com

Dr. Alter also has an office in New York:

461 Park Avenue South

7th Floor Suite

New York, New York 10016

The phones for this office are listed as the same for his Beverly Hills Office at his website.

Dr Alter’s work is mentioned in the article in, “I Had Cosmetic Surgery on My Genitals,” Marie

Claire magazine, February, 2000. The article lists "clitoroplasty" as one of the available genital

surgeries, and provides the following definition of "clitoroplasty":

“The hood of the clitoris is removed for heightened sensitivity.”

(Most references to “clitoroplasty” in medical journals and reports reserve this term for the

shaping of a clitoris in cases of infants with ambiguous genitals, or for those seeking sex changes

from male to female.)

Dr. Alter’s work is also mentioned in “The New Sex Surgeries,” Cosmopolitan magazine,

November, 1998, p.146.

Dr. Alter explicates his special technique for labiaplasty in “A New Technique for Aesthetic Labia

Minora Reduction,” Annals of Plastic Surgery 40, 1998, p. 287.

Dr. Alter also published an article reporting a follow-up study of his own patients' degree of

satisfaction with their results in Plastic and Reconstructive Surgery 2008 Dec. 122(6), 1780-9.

An abstract of this study may be found here.

Beverly Hills

Modern Institute of Plastic Surgery

Dr. Ryan Stanton M.D., F.A.C.S.

9090 Burton Way

Beverly Hills, CA 90211

Phone: 310-278-0077

Email: doc@labiaplastysurgeon.com

Website: http://www.labiaplastysurgeon.com/dr-stanton.html

Dr. Stanton only provides before and after photos of labiaplasties he has performed.

Beverly Hills (with satellite offices also in Encino and Orange County)

Dr. David Glick

433 N. Camden Dr.

Beverly Hills, California 90210

Phone: 310-887-4406

Fax: 310-887-4409

Website: http://www.drdavidglick.com/breast_body.html#labiaplastys

Beverly Hills and Agoura Hills

Robert A. Gutstein, M.D. F.A.C.S. (Director)

Plastic Surgery Centers

1125 South Beverly Drive #600

Beverly Hills, CA

Phone: 310-277-0910 or 800-339-4968

Another office:

Plastic Surgery Centers

28222 Agoura Rd. Suite 102

Agoura Hills, CA

Phone: 818-991-6436 or 805-496-6551

Email: newyou@plasticsurgerycenters.com

Website: http://www.plasticsurgerycenters.com

An information request form is offered at the website:

http://www.plasticsurgerycenters.com/Info_Request/info_request.html

Clitoral hood removal is not mentioned on the web page, but Dr. Gutstein will perform this

surgery upon request. Based upon private information I have received from one of his patients,

Dr. Gutstein tends not to remove the entire clitoral hood, when he performs this form of surgery,

but prefers instead to trim it back just enough to expose the tip or glans of the clitoris. In

performing a labiaplasty, however, Dr. Gutstein removed her entire labia minora (inner labia).

Beverly Hills

Dr. Edward Jacobson

Cosmetic Vagina Surgery

9735 Wilshire Blvd.

Beverly Hills, CA 90212

Tel.: 302-869-8360

Email: drjacobson@cosmeticvaginasurgery.com

Website: http://www.cosmeticvaginasurgery.com

Los Angeles, California

David L. Matlock, MD, MBA, FACOG

Laser Vaginal Rejuvenation Institute - Los Angeles

9201 Sunset Blvd, Ste 406

Los Angeles, CA 90069

Telephone: (310) 859-9052

Fax: (310) 859-7792

Website: http://www.drmatlock.com

Email contact is provided at the website.

Laguna Beach, California

Dr. Red M. Alinsod, MD

The Women’s Center

31852 Coast Highway, Suite200

Laguna Beach, CA 92651-6765

Phone: 877-4-UROGYN, 949-499-5311

Website: http://www.urogyn.org/avs_clitoral.html

Email: info@urogyn.org

Encino

S. Sean Younai, M.D. F.A.C.S. (Director)

California Center for Plastic Surgery

16311 Ventura Blvd., Suite 1010

Encino, CA 91436

Phone: 818-386-1222 or 877-434-4873

Email: info@beautifulself.com

Website: http://www.beautifulself.com/p_labiaplasty.htm

Dr. Younai mentions clitoral de-hooding as an optional addition to a labiaplasty, but I know

someone on whom Dr. Younai performed just a hoodectomy (without a labiaplasty) with good

results. Dr. Younai prefers not to remove the entire clitoral hood, but will remove enough to

uncover the tip or glans of the clitoris.

Beverly Hills, Orange County, and Encino

Website: http://www.newmenow.com

Beverley Hills, Orange County, Encino, CA

1-877-639-6301

(I was not able to get more information than this from the site.)

Lake Tahoe, California

The Tahoe Body Clinic

589 Tahoe Keys Blvd., Suite E5-8

S. Lake Tahoe, CA 96150

Phone: 530-541-3355 or 800-742-7387

Fax: 530-541-0110

Email: info@tahoeclinic.com

Website: http://www.tahoeclinic.com

Clitoral hood removal is not mentioned in the website, but several women say they had the

surgery done there, and I have subsequently confirmed that the surgery is available at the Tahoe

Clinic, which has extensive experience in performing this procedure.

San Francisco Bay Area: Los Gatos

Female plastic surgeon:

Dr. Rosanne Mayhew

For Women by Women

555 Knowles Dr., Suite 203

Los Gatos, California 95030

Phone: (408) 871-1885

Fax: (408) 871-8405

Website: http://drmayhew.com

Although hoodectomy is not mentioned at her website, Dr. Mayhew reported to this website that

she has performed numerous hoodectomies.

San Francisco

Female Plastic Surgeon

Dr. Usha Rajagopal, M.D.

San Francisco Plastic Surgery

490 Post St, Suite 430

San Francisco, CA 94102

Phone: 415-392-3333

http://www.sfcosmeticsurgery.com/index.htm

Ayaan Hirsi's Prejudice Confirmed

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