"Israeli Raid: Statist Logic to its Deadly Extreme"

[Libertarian Muslim]

Why should Israel commit piracy?

How would you characterize Hamas, Adonis?

--Brant

Boarding the ship and taking it over in the first place was piracy, it was in international waters.

But moving into the future. If there are no international observers Israel may commit piracy by not allowing items that are not weapons to get into Gaza and instead taking the ships into their own ports.

That is state piracy.

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

The reason Hamas won't allow Israel to bring it in after that incident is because it would set a precedent which has previously shown not to work.

Adonis,

In other words, let the Gazans suffer when it's politically convenient for Hamas?

Boy, those Hamas people are all right. Some concern for their people they show.

With rulers like that, who needs enemies?

Here we disagree.

Michael

[Libertarian Muslim]

The reason Hamas won't allow Israel to bring it in after that incident is because it would set a precedent which has previously shown not to work.

Adonis,

In other words, let the Gazans suffer when it's politically convenient for Hamas?

Boy, those Hamas people are all right. Some concern for their people they show.

With rulers like that, who needs enemies?

Here we disagree.

Michael

Michael,

The people of Gaza are suffering not because of Hamas, but because of Israel's blockade..

Hamas' refusal to take goods from Israel was because of the fact that Israel would turn it into a PR stunt to make themselves look good for delivering a portion of what was taken when ultimately there is no legal basis for a blockade that prevents essentials from going in.

It's about the legitimacy of the blockade..

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

It's about the legitimacy of the blockade..

Adonis,

I always want to respond to things like this with, "Tell that to the child with hunger in his belly that did not have to be there if Hamas had let the aid through."

Even if you respond with, "The hunger would not have been there in the first place if not for Israel," that does nothing for the child.

He is still hungry and there was food to give him. Hamas denied him that food.

That's why I say, with rulers like Hamas, who needs enemies? I don't believe in their true concern for Gazans. I do believe in their true concern for their own power and the hatred they nurture in their souls.

Michael

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

I want to add something.

It's about the Hamas leaders who would not let the food through.

The Gazan babies who were hungry did not eat that day. But I have no doubt--none at all--that those Hamas leaders enjoyed very good meals.

Michael

[Libertarian Muslim]

You assume too much. Hamas aren't some dictatorship that leeches off of their people, they were elected because of the good they do in the community especially in social programs.

So what were Hamas supposed to do? Let the aid in and say 'Thank you Israel for being so generous granting us what is a human right now that you're in the media spotlight'.

It sets a precedence which has been tried before, Israel can turn that aid tap off any time when they aren't in the international spotlight like they've done since 2006 and it's only really being made an issue now after the attack on the flotilla.

Do you beg for what are your inalienable rights from those who've usurped them from you Michael? If you don't then why do you expect the Palestinians to do the same.. They're human beings with the right to dignity..

Accepting that aid would have been giving up a long term gain for something so temporary that it would have lasted a very short time.

[sbeaulieu]

You assume too much. Hamas aren't some dictatorship that leeches off of their people, they were elected because of the good they do in the community especially in social programs.

Vlad,

It may very well be the case that Hamas don't leech (what would they take?). But what good are they doing for the community when they disallow goods to come in through Israel. Ultimately, if it comes from them, who cares about media attention?? Also, it's a sanction from Israel stating that what's coming is uncontested, thereby showing good faith and building positive rapport. That could be the start of briding the gap to peaceful relations. Hamas is showing their hand with the "we know what's better for you" attitude.

~ Shane

[Libertarian Muslim]

Vlad,

It may very well be the case that Hamas don't leech (what would they take?). But what good are they doing for the community when they disallow goods to come in through Israel. Ultimately, if it comes from them, who cares about media attention?? Also, it's a sanction from Israel stating that what's coming is uncontested, thereby showing good faith and building positive rapport. That could be the start of briding the gap to peaceful relations. Hamas is showing their hand with the "we know what's better for you" attitude.

~ Shane

Vlad? Excuse me?

[sbeaulieu]

Vlad? Excuse me?

Apologies

I mixed your last and first name, Adonis. Won't happen again.

~ Shane

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

So what were Hamas supposed to do? Let the aid in and say 'Thank you Israel for being so generous granting us what is a human right now that you're in the media spotlight'.

Adonis,

When I see the children of my people hungry, but I have complaints, then food shows up, I feed the kids then worry about the rest (my complaints).

I certainly don't eat well while denying food to the kids and present a sanctimonious posture of righteousness in political PR moves.

But then that's my morality. Feed the kids if there is food, then worry about the rest.

The bottom line for my morality is this:

I can respect a person who sacrifices his own things and his own life for his cause. He can be my enemy and we may wish to destroy each other, but if he does this, I respect him. He truly values his cause.

I cannot respect a man who sacrifices his people--including women and children--for his cause, and when you look at what he does, he does not participate in that sacrifice. He may say he does, but when you look at how he lives, he is well taken care of. How can anyone respect that and call that a man?

(The Hamas leaders I have seen might be called anything, but underfed is not one of them. If equality of justice brought you to Islam, I suggest--from the heart, not from any kind of attempt to denigrate your beliefs--that you look with a critical eye at how Hamas's leaders are always much more equal than the people they rule.)

I say, if the men eat, then the children must eat. Isn't that in harmony with Islam? For God's sake, if there is not enough food and food appears, withholding that food from children is evil in my values. Is it not in yours? How can anyone justify eating well while withholding food from the children they are supposed to protect?

It sets a precedence which has been tried before, Israel can turn that aid tap off any time when they aren't in the international spotlight like they've done since 2006 and it's only really being made an issue now after the attack on the flotilla.

In the news accounts I have read, there is paper work to be filed (granting Israel permission to inspect the cargo among other conditions) before undertaking the trip--paperwork that the flotilla refused to do. I will try to find you the links to the reports. I will also try to find independent sources to avoid bias.

So I don't understand what you mean by precedent here. If Israel denies the paperwork and refuses to make the inspection, OK. That would be ugly. But I have not seen it reported that way.

What I saw was refusal to allow Israel to inspect the cargo and an attempt to challenge the blockade in a kind of suicide mission.

Michael

[Libertarian Muslim]

Adonis,

When I see the children of my people hungry, but I have complaints, then food shows up, I feed the kids then worry about the rest (my complaints).

I certainly don't eat well while denying food to the kids and present a sanctimonious posture of righteousness in political PR moves.

But then that's my morality. Feed the kids if there is food, then worry about the rest.

The bottom line for my morality is this:

I can respect a person who sacrifices his own things and his own life for his cause. He can be my enemy and we may wish to destroy each other, but if he does this, I respect him. He truly values his cause.

I cannot respect a man who sacrifices his people--including women and children--for his cause, and when you look at what he does, he does not participate in that sacrifice. He may say he does, but when you look at how he lives, he is well taken care of. How can anyone respect that and call that a man?

(The Hamas leaders I have seen might be called anything, but underfed is not one of them. If equality of justice brought you to Islam, I suggest--from the heart, not from any kind of attempt to denigrate your beliefs--that you look with a critical eye at how Hamas's leaders are always much more equal than the people they rule.)

I say, if the men eat, then the children must eat. Isn't that in harmony with Islam? For God's sake, if there is not enough food and food appears, withholding that food from children is evil in my values. Is it not in yours? How can anyone justify eating well while withholding food from the children they are supposed to protect?

Your emotional response to it would put your country into further havoc. The reason is because whilst in the short term you may gain some food or concrete it would cost you far more in the future because ultimately, Israel would then use their media machine as a way to say that your acceptance of the goods was a reason to legitimize their piracy and aggressions and then in the future, as they have done numerous times in the past would once again block those supplies from coming in when the media spotlight wasn't on them.

Your actions of accepting it would cause more harm than good..

In the news accounts I have read, there is paper work to be filed (granting Israel permission to inspect the cargo among other conditions) before undertaking the trip--paperwork that the flotilla refused to do. I will try to find you the links to the reports. I will also try to find independent sources to avoid bias.

So I don't understand what you mean by precedent here. If Israel denies the paperwork and refuses to make the inspection, OK. That would be ugly. But I have not seen it reported that way.

What I saw was refusal to allow Israel to inspect the cargo and an attempt to challenge the blockade in a kind of suicide mission.

Michael

I'm not sure about the paperwork on this occasion, I've definitely combed over the Israeli media and never seen that.. Nevertheless, Israel has consistently refused to allow these goods including concrete to rebuild their homes into Gaza, whether through Aid convoy or other shipments. On many other occasions the Israelis refused to allow goods properly declared like concrete into Gaza.

In this instance they were bringing in goods that Israel wasn't letting in on other occasions where people had filled out shipment and customs forms for in the first place like concrete so what makes you think that filling out the paper work would have let it go through this time?

If Israel had any intention of letting the goods through upon inspection they wouldn't have attacked the ship in international waters threatening to fire upon it if it didn't stop heading towards Gaza and instead would have asked to inspect the goods first.

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Your emotional response to it would put your country into further havoc.

Adonis,

This is something that gets to me on a level far deeper than politics.

I wonder if the Hamas leaders are enjoying their "emotional response" of righteousness as they dig into a hot meal, knowing that they just denied their people's hungry children some food to eat.

That kind of soul is my problem.

And that's what I refuse to dismiss with them.

(I'll get to the other stuff later.)

Michael

[Martin Radwin]

Your emotional response to it would put your country into further havoc.

Adonis,

This is something that gets to me on a level far deeper than politics.

I wonder if the Hamas leaders are enjoying their "emotional response" of righteousness as they dig into a hot meal, knowing that they just denied their people's hungry children some food to eat.

That kind of soul is my problem.

And that's what I refuse to dismiss with them.

(I'll get to the other stuff later.)

Michael

Do you also wonder if the Israeli government leaders are enjoying their "emotional response" of righteousness as they dig into a hot meal, knowing that they just denied thousands of Palestinian hungry children some food to eat, via the longstanding blockade that they have imposed? Because, after all, unlike me, you don't have any tribal biases at all. As a non-tribalist, surely you don't adhere to one set of moral values for one tribe and a different set of moral values for another. So surely you wouldn't want to condemn and to feel moral outrage at Hamas leaders for doing this, while giving a free pass to the Israeli government, would you?

Martin

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Martin,

I don't approve of Israelis who knowingly do that.

I need to study the information on these effects more because the history of disinformation on this issue is a history of extremely poor reputation and performance truth-wise--on all sides. I like to make sure of my facts before I make my judgments.

At any rate, the Hamas leaders are sworn to protect their people. They don't. And they eat well while they sacrifice--through hunger--the women and children they pledge to protect.

Beyond disgusting.

That's even beyond any tribal values I know of, and I don't really like tribal values.

btw - I have moderated a pro-Israel tribalist because he wouldn't stop with the bigoted comments. Has that escaped you?

Michael

[anthony]

Your emotional response to it would put your country into further havoc.

Adonis,

This is something that gets to me on a level far deeper than politics.

I wonder if the Hamas leaders are enjoying their "emotional response" of righteousness as they dig into a hot meal, knowing that they just denied their people's hungry children some food to eat.

That kind of soul is my problem.

And that's what I refuse to dismiss with them.

(I'll get to the other stuff later.)

Michael

Do you also wonder if the Israeli government leaders are enjoying their "emotional response" of righteousness as they dig into a hot meal, knowing that they just denied thousands of Palestinian hungry children some food to eat, via the longstanding blockade that they have imposed? Because, after all, unlike me, you don't have any tribal biases at all. As a non-tribalist, surely you don't adhere to one set of moral values for one tribe and a different set of moral values for another. So surely you wouldn't want to condemn and to feel moral outrage at Hamas leaders for doing this, while giving a free pass to the Israeli government, would you?

Martin

Martin,

I have recently viewed photos from Gaza, showing busy shops, relaxed street scenes, and piles of produce.

Your opinion of Israel being bullies has the tiniest amount of truth - and even that makes many Jews I know (and myself) unhappy.

But starving Gazans? No.

"...other observers go even further, pointing to the well-stocked markets in Gaza, the emergence of gourmet restaurants...

...Human rights activists contend that although there is plenty of food, not everyone can afford enough to meet their basic needs. They say 70% of factories are closed, 40% of Gaza workers are unemployed, and 60% of households are 'food insecure.'"

Leslie Susser, journalist.

Israel is a naive idiot when it comes to public relations, or too proud to defend themselves against western liberals who, long ago, were seduced by the efficient Muslim propaganda machine.

Be very wary where you get your 'facts' from.

"The Principles of War" - by Hezbollah - reads:- "the media has innumerable guns whose hits are like bullets. Use them in battle."

Tony

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

But starving Gazans? No.

Tony,

I suspect there are none myself.

I'm merely going by what Hamas reports when I criticize their behavior.

So if there are no starving Gazan babies, the Hamas people are liars using their children as objects of their lies. If I try to think like a religious person, that makes me uneasy morally. What would God or Allah think of that--of using children for adult dishonesty?

If there are starving Gazan babies and, as Hamas has admitted, they did not let food in--and all the while they ate well while the children starved, then they are monsters.

(For the record, I generally have a much high regard for Muslims than other people here in O-Land because I have known many with high moral standards. Also, I have many friends I left behind in Brazil. They are lovely people. I suspect if I ever meet Adonis in person, we could become friends despite our disagreements. Obviously, I do not hold this esteem for Hamas.)

Still, I am going to check on all this from unbiased sources.

Michael

[anthony]

But starving Gazans? No.

Tony,

I suspect there are none myself.

I'm merely going by what Hamas reports when I criticize their behavior.

So if there are no starving Gazan babies, the Hamas people are liars using their children as objects of their lies. If I try to think like a religious person, that makes me uneasy morally. What would God or Allah think of that--of using children for adult dishonesty?

If there are starving Gazan babies and, as Hamas has admitted, they did not let food in--and all the while they ate well while the children starved, then they are monsters.

(For the record, I generally have a much high regard for Muslims than other people here in O-Land because I have known many with high moral standards. Also, I have many friends I left behind in Brazil. They are lovely people. I suspect if I ever meet Adonis in person, we could become friends despite our disagreements. Obviously, I do not hold this esteem for Hamas.)

Still, I am going to check on all this from unbiased sources.

Michael

Good luck on your fact-finding mission, Michael.

My impression is there's a lot of ass-covering going on from both sides.

Israel is launching some PR of its own, for a change, too.

Wear a thick coat - the 'blizzard' is going to be heavy.

Tony

[Libertarian Muslim]

Your emotional response to it would put your country into further havoc.

Adonis,

This is something that gets to me on a level far deeper than politics.

I wonder if the Hamas leaders are enjoying their "emotional response" of righteousness as they dig into a hot meal, knowing that they just denied their people's hungry children some food to eat.

That kind of soul is my problem.

And that's what I refuse to dismiss with them.

(I'll get to the other stuff later.)

Michael

You're assuming that Hamas' leadership don't suffer as much as their people and that it is only their people suffering.

Nothing could be further from the truth, I saw how Khaled Meshaal lives in Syria, he lives a very basic life. As does the other Hamas leadership..

They're not like Fatah or the PLO. They are not corrupt and do not live at the expense of their people.

Martin,

I have recently viewed photos from Gaza, showing busy shops, relaxed street scenes, and piles of produce.

Your opinion of Israel being bullies has the tiniest amount of truth - and even that makes many Jews I know (and myself) unhappy.

But starving Gazans? No.

"...other observers go even further, pointing to the well-stocked markets in Gaza, the emergence of gourmet restaurants...

...Human rights activists contend that although there is plenty of food, not everyone can afford enough to meet their basic needs. They say 70% of factories are closed, 40% of Gaza workers are unemployed, and 60% of households are 'food insecure.'"

Leslie Susser, journalist.

Israel is a naive idiot when it comes to public relations, or too proud to defend themselves against western liberals who, long ago, were seduced by the efficient Muslim propaganda machine.

Be very wary where you get your 'facts' from.

"The Principles of War" - by Hezbollah - reads:- "the media has innumerable guns whose hits are like bullets. Use them in battle."

Tony

And because you saw some pictures which you were told were recent pictures from the Gaza Strip depicting 'every day life for Gazans' you assume that it's 100% accurate?

Many aid agencies have stated that most Gazans are suffering from malnutrition and live in terrible conditions.

[Libertarian Muslim]

Also, if the Israelis are so innocent of their actions and were conducting something lawful, perhaps you could then tell me why they have confiscated and refuse to return most of the footage taken from the Flotilla by the journalists on board?

There are hours and hours of footage which Israel refuses to release.. They're hiding their guilt.

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Also, if the Israelis are so innocent of their actions and were conducting something lawful...

Adonis,

I, for one, have not really adopted "law" as a standard, despite having commented on your legal comment. In the present circumstances, I'm sure we can find all kinds of "laws" by all kinds of organizations and find all kinds of violations on both sides.

I see it more as two sides issuing orders to each other and backing those orders up by organized belligerence.

I stated it earlier as Israel saying, "You're not coming in," and Hamas and its friends saying, "Yes we are."

Here I am talking about the point of confrontation and days before, not about any other context.

That's the reality. That's what this thing has become.

Law doesn't mean much in a situation like that.

Diplomacy and negotiations are needed if law is to mean anything of any real effectiveness. Until they happen, I'm afraid any expectations based on law will be nothing but impossible wishful thinking and/or empty rhetoric.

I'm not saying that's how it should be. I am saying that's how it exists.

Michael

[Xray]

Concerning the recent events, the famous conductor Daniel Barenboim gave an interview published in the German weekly newspaper "Die Zeit".

http://www.zeit.de/2010/24/Barenboim-Interview

Should it be possible to have in translated via the net, I'd encourage everyone to do so. Barenboim takes only one side: that of humanity.

In founding (together with the Palestinian scholar Edward Said) the "West Eastern Divan Orchestra" where musicians from both and Israel, Palestine and variuos Arab countries play together, Barenboim has put into practice a vision. He is an ambassador of peace and hope.

His "I Have a Dream" article on his website is deeply touching and inspiring:

http://www.danielbarenboim.com/journal_dream.htm

It is also people like Barenboim who give me hope in my work as teacher of children whose families had to flee from war zones in several parts of the world.

Edited June 13, 2010 by Xray

[algernonsidney]

I'm also curious as to how barring Noam Chomsky from entering the West Bank protects Israel's security. As far as I know, Chomsky has never committed violence against anybody.

http://www.ifex.org/israel/2010/05/25/chomsky_banned/

[BaalChatzaf]

It is also people like Barenboim who give me hope in my work as teacher of children whose families had to flee from war zones in several parts of the world.

There is one bad feature of the Barenboim Plan: it will lead to a lot of dead Jews.

Ba'al Chatzaf