Natural born citizen- March on Washington- May 26

[galtgulch]

Here is the link:

http://www.wnd.com/index.php?pageId=134881

<<<"

Why Obama is ineligible – regardless of his birthplace

Posted: April 01, 2010

1:00 am Eastern

By Leo C. Donofrio, Esq.

© 2010

The following discussion assumes President Obama was born in Hawaii and is a United States citizen.

The purpose of this article is to highlight judicial and historical evidence suggesting that a "natural born citizen" must be born in the United States to parents who are citizens. By that definition, Obama is not eligible to be president. Therefore, his presidency and official administrative acts remain subject to being rendered void by the Supreme Court.

The relevant Obama admission

At the official Obama campaign website – Fightthesmears.com – just below the Certification of Live Birth (COLB) – the following admission was also published:

When Barack Obama Jr. was born on Aug. 4,1961, in Honolulu, Kenya was a British colony, still part of the United Kingdom's dwindling empire. As a Kenyan native, Barack Obama Sr. was a British subject whose citizenship status was governed by The British Nationality Act of 1948. That same act governed the status of Obama Sr.'s children.

This was republished from a Factcheck.org, article which further stated:

In other words, at the time of his birth, Barack Obama Jr. was both a U.S. citizen (by virtue of being born in Hawaii) and a citizen of the United Kingdom and Colonies (or the UKC) by virtue of being born to a father who was a citizen of the UKC.

The constitutional question presented is whether a person born with citizenship in and allegiance to a foreign nation can be considered a "natural born citizen" of the United States as required by Article II, Section 1.

The U.S. State Department's Foreign Affairs Manual discusses problems associated with dual citizenship:

7 FAM 081: U.S. Policy on Dual Nationality:

(e)While recognizing the existence of dual nationality, the U.S. Government does not encourage it as a matter of policy because of the problems it may cause. Dual nationality may hamper efforts by the U.S. Government to provide diplomatic and consular protection to individuals overseas. When a U.S. citizen is in the other country of their dual nationality, that country has a predominant claim on the person.

This helps explain why the definition of "natural born citizen" as one born in the nation to parents who are citizens makes perfect sense in that such a person will not be infected by dual-allegiance problems. If the parents are citizens, neither will confer allegiance to a foreign nation. Additionally, if one is born on soil foreign to the parents, that nation is likely to recognize the person as a citizen. Owing allegiance to more than one nation is an unnatural circumstance of citizenship.

While the Constitution requires representatives, senators and presidents to be citizens, Article II, Section 1, additionally requires that the president's citizenship be "natural born." A natural born citizen is not a higher level of citizen. "Natural born" simply describes a circumstance of citizenship.

Now watch the red-hot eligibility story on DVD: "The Question of Eligibility: Is Barack Obama's presidency constitutionally legitimate?"

There are multiple circumstances that create "citizens at birth." Some require a federal statute for citizenship while others rely on the 14th Amendment. Had the framers of the 14th Amendment sought to deem every person born in the United States a natural born citizen, they certainly could have included such plain, unequivocal language. But they didn't.

In 1790, the first Congress deemed all persons born of two United States citizen parents abroad to be "natural born citizens," but the words "natural born" were repealed in 1795. Congress never again legislated the definition of "natural born citizen," and no United States statute currently defines the term or even mentions it.

The citizenship of a person born in the United States to parents who are citizens is self-evident and has never required naturalization, a federal statute or an amendment, and the Supreme Court has indicated that such persons are the only citizens who satisfy the natural born citizen requirement of Article II, Section 1.

Origin of the natural born citizen clause

The strict constitutional requirements were enacted to exclude citizens for the sake of national security in safeguarding the office from inexperience and from persons who may not have sole allegiance. It appears the clause was first introduced for constitutional consideration in a letter from John Jay to George Washington dated July 25, 1787:

Permit me to hint whether it would not be wise and seasonable to provide a strong check to the admission of Foreigners into the administration of our national Government, and to declare expressly that the Commander in Chief of the American army shall not be given to nor devolve on, any but a natural born Citizen.

Jay underlined "born" which signifies the importance of allegiance from birth. The "natural born" requirement renders irrelevant that a person – born to foreign or dual allegiance – may not have renewed his foreign citizenship upon reaching maturity. One is either eligible to be president at birth, or one will never be eligible.

An important historical definition of "natural born citizen" comes from a 1797 translation of the "Law of Nations," a 1758 text by Emerich de Vattel, which summarized that body of international law known also as the "Law of Nations":

The citizens are the members of the civil society: bound to this society by certain duties, and subject to its authority, they equally participate in its advantages. The natives, or natural-born citizens, are those born in the country, of parents who are citizens.

Note that a child of former aliens can be a natural born citizen under this standard if born in the United States to parents who were naturalized prior to the child's birth. That was made clear by the Supreme Court's opinion in Perkins v. Elg.

It appears from James Madison's notes of August 1787 that the delegates used the terms "native" and "natural born citizen" synonymously. Additionally, Ben Franklin stated that the framers frequently consulted Vattel's text. Also consider that Article I, Section 8, grants Congress the authority to "punish ... offenses against the Law of Nations."

In the case of The Venus 12 U.S. 253, 289 (1814), Chief Justice John Marshall stated:

Vattel, who, though not very full to this point, is more explicit and more satisfactory on it than any other whose work has fallen into my hands, says "The citizens are the members of the civil society; bound to this society by certain duties, and subject to its authority, they equally participate in its advantages. The natives or indigenes are those born in the country of parents who are citizens. ..."

Chief Justice Marshall relied upon a pre-1797 edition of Vattel's text. The 1797 translation was adopted by the Supreme Court in Minor v. Happersett, 88 U.S. 162 (1874), where Chief Justice Waite stated:

The Constitution does not, in words, say who shall be natural-born citizens. Resort must be had elsewhere to ascertain that. At common-law, with the nomenclature of which the framers of the Constitution were familiar, it was never doubted that all children born in a country of parents who were its citizens became themselves, upon their birth, citizens also. These were natives, or natural-born citizens, as distinguished from aliens or foreigners. Some authorities go further and include as citizens children born within the jurisdiction without reference to the citizenship of their parents. As to this class there have been doubts, but never as to the first. ...

It's significant that this decision was issued six years after the 14th Amendment was enacted. As such, Minor illustrates that the 14th Amendment simply defines who is a citizen, not which citizens are natural born.

If Obama had run for president in 1874 – six years after the 14th Amendment went into effect – he wouldn't have been eligible since he doesn't fit the Minor Court's standard for a natural born citizen.

The strange case of Chester Arthur

The holding in Minor v. Happersett must have given Chester Arthur nightmares when he ran for vice president in 1880, six years after Minor. Arthur, a prominent New York lawyer, managed to conceal from public view that his father didn't become a naturalized citizen until 14 years after he was born. Therefore Chester Arthur was a British subject at birth.

Arthur's deception in concealing this fact involved numerous lies to the Brooklyn Eagle newspaper concerning his father's heritage, immigration and age. He also quite famously burned most of his papers and lied about his own age.

Historical records bear witness that this issue was never discussed in relation to Chester Arthur's eligibility until recently. Helping to cloud the issue all these years was a famous conspiracy theory expounded by a New York lawyer named Arthur Hinman who alleged Chester Arthur was born in Canada and was therefore not eligible. This sensational and unfounded conspiracy theory took the spotlight and unfortunately provided a smokescreen to conceal the true eligibility defect.

Chester Arthur is the only president prior to Obama who – after the grandfather clause of Article II, Section 1, expired – was not born in the United States of two citizen parents. As such, Obama supporters have sought to use Chester Arthur as precedent for justifying Obama's eligibility. Such reliance is unfounded because it wasn't known at the time Chester Arthur held office that he was born with dual nationality. That this was concealed from the general public is confirmed by two important law review articles.

(Column continues below)

In the September/October 1884 issue of The American Law Review, George C. Collins discussed the citizenship status of persons born on U.S. soil to foreign parents. In the concluding paragraph, Collins stated:

Birth, therefore, does not ipso facto confer citizenship, and it is essential in order that a person be a native or natural born citizen of the United States, that his father be at the time of the birth of such person a citizen thereof, or in case he be illegitimate, that his mother be a citizen thereof at the time of such birth.

It's ridiculous to imagine the sitting president wouldn't be mentioned when the article concerns the issue of whether a person born of an alien father is even a United States citizen.

Chester Arthur's true eligibility defect doesn't appear to have been mentioned in any historical record until December 2008 when it was exposed at my blog. Clearly, Chester Arthur's deception cannot serve to validate anyone's presidential eligibility. He got away with it, but that doesn't make it right.

U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark, 169 U.S. 649 (1898)

In 1898, Justice Horace Gray wrote one of the most controversial opinions in Supreme Court history wherein a man born in the United States of Chinese alien parents was held to be a citizen. Wong Kim Ark is the precedent relied upon for the assertion that any person born on United States soil, regardless of parentage, is a citizen. But that's not accurate. The holding in Wong Kim Ark appears to require for citizenship that a person be born on United States soil to parents who are permanently domiciled here. If the domicile requirement is upheld in future cases, anchor babies will no longer be assumed to be United States citizens.

Regardless, the holding in Wong Kim Ark did not state that such a citizen was "natural born." In fact, Justice Gray reiterated the definition of natural born citizen as one born on United States soil to parents who are citizens when he favorably discussed Minor v. Happersett:

That neither Mr. Justice Miller nor any of the justices who took part in the decision of The Slaughterhouse Cases understood the court to be committed to the view that all children born in the United States of citizens or subjects of foreign States were excluded from the operation of the first sentence of the Fourteenth Amendment is manifest from a unanimous judgment of the Court, delivered but two years later, while all those judges but Chief Justice Chase were still on the bench, in which Chief Justice Waite said: "Allegiance and protection are, in this connection (that is, in relation to citizenship), reciprocal obligations. The one is a compensation for the other: allegiance for protection, and protection for allegiance. ... At common law, with the nomenclature of which the framers of the Constitution were familiar, it was never doubted that all children, born in a country of parents who were its citizens, became themselves, upon their birth, citizens also. These were natives, or natural-born citizens. ..."

While the dissent feared the majority holding would make Wong Kim Ark eligible to be president, Justice Gray's restatement of the Minor Court's definition of a natural born citizen as one born in the United States to parents who are citizens stands in direct contrast to the dissent's fear.

A few years after Wong Kim Ark was decided, the Albany Law Journal published an article by Alexander Porter Morse entitled, "NATURAL-BORN CITIZEN OF THE UNITED STATES: ELIGIBILITY FOR THE OFFICE OF PRESIDENT" (Albany Law Journal Vol. 66 (1904-1905)):

If it was intended that anybody who was a citizen by birth should be eligible, it would only have been necessary to say, "no person, except a native-born citizen"; but the framers thought it wise, in view of the probable influx of European immigration, to provide that the president should at least be the child of citizens owing allegiance to the United States at the time of his birth. It may be observed in passing that the current phrase "native-born citizen" is well understood; but it is pleonasm and should be discarded; and the correct designation, "native citizen" should be substituted in all constitutional and statutory enactments, in judicial decisions and in legal discussions where accuracy and precise language are essential to intelligent discussion.

The term "native born citizen" has been erroneously substituted for "natural born citizen" by numerous commentators. Mr. Morse correctly points out that the two are not synonymous. His article also proves once again that Chester Arthur's dual nationality was hidden from the public. There would have been no point in writing the article – which doesn't mention Chester Arthur – had the nation previously condoned a president born with dual allegiance.

The argument against Obama being eligible rests on multiple Supreme Court cases that define a "natural born citizen" as one born in the United States to parents who are citizens. This is not a political issue. It's a legal issue faced by a nation where nobody is supposed to be above the law. As such, it deserves judicial review.

[For the most comprehensive etymological deconstruction of the term "natural born Citizen," I strongly recommend, "What Is A Natural Born Citizen Of The United States?" by John Greschak.

Leo Donofrio is an attorney with 20 years' experience. He is a partner in the law firm of Pidgeon & Donofrio and he authors the Natural Born Citizen blog.">>>

www.campaignforliberty.com 231,225

[galtgulch]

<<<"Minister of Lands In Kenya Obama Was Born Here In Kenya

Submitted by Thomas on Thu, 05/06/2010 - 02:30.

http://puzo1.blogspot.com/2010/05/new-ad-washington-times-na...'>http://puzo1.blogspot.com/2010/05/new-ad-washington-times-na...

Washington Times National Weekly Edition - 03 May 2010 - Page 5

The Minister of Lands in Kenya, James Orengo, on 25 March 2010 during Kenyan National Assembly debate on their new Constitution, declares on the record that Obama "was born here in Kenya" and is not a "native American"!

Another Kenyan Minister, Dr. Bonny Khalwale, stated on the record on 14 April 2010 in the Kenyan National Assembly that Obama should repatriate himself to Kenya.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/30855663/Minister-in-Kenyan-Nation...

Charles Kerchner, Commander USNR (Retired)

Lead Plaintiff, Kerchner v Obama & Congress

http://puzo1.blogspot.com

http://www.protectourliberty.org

####

P.S. The Manchurian President is being exposed in his homeland, the land of his birth, Kenya. Obama's birth was fraudulently registered as occurring in Hawaii by Obama's maternal grandmother who knew how easy it was to illegally get her newborn grandson statutory U.S. citizenship via Hawaii by simply filling out a mail-in born and saying Obama was born at home with no witnesses and no emergency medical attendants, nothing. Simple attestation of a family member. That's it. Nothing else. U.S. citizenship is a highly coveted status now and then. Birth registration fraud occurs now and it did then too. That is what Obama is hiding. There is no corroborating evidence in his original birth registration to prove he was born in Hawaii, ... because he wasn't.

More:

http://puzo1.blogspot.com/2010/05/new-ad-washington-times-na...'>http://puzo1.blogspot.com/2010/05/new-ad-washington-times-na...">>>

www.campaignforliberty.com 231,225

[Rich Engle]

"I'm a nigger with a badge which means I got permission to kick your fuckin' ass whenever I feel like it!"

--Eddy Murphy, 48 Hours (1982)

rde

Now I Realize Why I Never Found A Black Objectivist

[imurray]

http://www.yalelawjournal.org/the-yale-law-journal-pocket-part/constitutional-law/natural%11born-citizen-clause-and-presidential-eligibility/

This was published in 1988 - so there is no chance that the author of this article was biased for or against Obama.

Ian

Edited May 7, 2010 by Panoptic

[tjohnson]

I think the electoral authorities should have figured out if Obama was eligible to be President BEFORE the election??

[Chris Grieb]

This is just so silly.

As they say at traffic accidents "Move on. There's nothing to see here.

[imurray]

This is just so silly.

As they say at traffic accidents "Move on. There's nothing to see here.

"Move on" Oh. My. God. That's a reference to moveon.org! The mask is slipping from Chris's face revealing his true loyalties. Hahaha.

Ian

[algernonsidney]

It would not be that hard to fake a birth certificate. Still, this reflects the purely anti-intellectual attitude of these people who dwell on this. "Okay, so you have proof that Obama was born somewhere else, so what? How does that lower my taxes? How does that cut back on government spending?"

Leave these kind of distractions aside and focus on the issues and the ideas involved.

[9thdoctor]

"I'm a nigger with a badge which means I got permission to kick your fuckin' ass whenever I feel like it!"

--Eddy Murphy, 48 Hours (1982)

rde

Now I Realize Why I Never Found A Black Objectivist

A new one just joined OL, I’ve known others, and then there’s Thomas Sowell, arguably the most distinguished libertarian writer today. I want to assume you intend this is a joke, but in the context you’re offering it…what the hell? What would Janeane Garafolo say?

I’m lining up behind George, particularly his conclusion in this post: http://www.objectivistliving.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=8558&view=findpost&p=97733

[imurray]

"I'm a nigger with a badge which means I got permission to kick your fuckin' ass whenever I feel like it!"

--Eddy Murphy, 48 Hours (1982)

rde

Now I Realize Why I Never Found A Black Objectivist

A new one just joined OL, I’ve known others, and then there’s Thomas Sowell, arguably the most distinguished libertarian writer today. I want to assume you intend this is a joke, but in the context you’re offering it…what the hell? What would Janeane Garafolo say?

I’m lining up behind George, particularly his conclusion in this post: http://www.objectivistliving.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=8558&view=findpost&p=97733

Agreed.

Ian

[galtgulch]

I think the electoral authorities should have figured out if Obama was eligible to be President BEFORE the election??

GS,

Of course they knew! But they realized that most people are ignorant of such things as details of the eligibility requirements of the Constitution for President.

They know that Obama was a valuable person for their purposes. He was well educated and eloquent. He was intelligent and crafty. He shared the establishment premises and know how to cash in on them. They knew he was a more appealing candidate than Hilary and could easily beat McCain. They appointed many judges who would not hear challenges by using the lack of standing argument. Specious to be sure but it has worked so far.

I can't believe you people. The bad guys in this game are truly evil and willing to use lies and deceit to achieve their goals. Why Obama is even willing to argue in public that his health plan will require individual mandates to raise the money to make it work. He has said in no uncertain terms that without such mandates it will not work. There are accepted mandates such as having auto insurance, compulsory public education, taxation for which there is evidently no actual law. They have us or most of us being compliant or in favor of their agenda. The media is in their pocket as are the courts and the public schools teachers and the university professors. The ideological foundation for their agenda is in place. They have been getting away with their interventions for decades with virtually no opposition of any strength.

"electoral authorities!" Give me a break! The only individuals who are interested in the truth are a handful of individuals to whom the truth and the Constitution matters.

I was kind of hoping there might be a few here on OL.

I am not going to go to Washington D.C. to march although I will be there in spirit.

One must choose one's battles. I will be watching closely.

In the meantime I am submitting a Resolution to the House of Delegates of the Massachusetts Medical Society next week at their annual meeting to oppose Obamacare and to press the Attorney General and the State House to sue for nullification. I believe 38 other states are in some stage of advocacy of the nullification process.

Not too late for you to take possession of gold and silver bullion coins. The rise in price of gold is just at the beginning of a long term bull market given the debt crisis in the world and Bernanke's inclination to respond by rolling the printing presses as he has been doing. SIlver will do better given its smaller market, enormous industrial demand, short supply and its role as money in addition to gold. Check out www.APMES.com to see what is available and to follow the prices. Beware of high premiums on rare coins rather stick to bullion coins.

www.campaignforliberty.com 231,258

[Prometheus]

I think the electoral authorities should have figured out if Obama was eligible to be President BEFORE the election??

GS,

Of course they knew! But they realized that most people are ignorant of such things as details of the eligibility requirements of the Constitution for President.

They know that Obama was a valuable person for their purposes. He was well educated and eloquent. He was intelligent and crafty. He shared the establishment premises and know how to cash in on them. They knew he was a more appealing candidate than Hilary and could easily beat McCain. They appointed many judges who would not hear challenges by using the lack of standing argument. Specious to be sure but it has worked so far.

I can't believe you people. The bad guys in this game are truly evil and willing to use lies and deceit to achieve their goals. Why Obama is even willing to argue in public that his health plan will require individual mandates to raise the money to make it work. He has said in no uncertain terms that without such mandates it will not work. There are accepted mandates such as having auto insurance, compulsory public education, taxation for which there is evidently no actual law. They have us or most of us being compliant or in favor of their agenda. The media is in their pocket as are the courts and the public schools teachers and the university professors. The ideological foundation for their agenda is in place. They have been getting away with their interventions for decades with virtually no opposition of any strength.

"electoral authorities!" Give me a break! The only individuals who are interested in the truth are a handful of individuals to whom the truth and the Constitution matters.

I was kind of hoping there might be a few here on OL.

I am not going to go to Washington D.C. to march although I will be there in spirit.

One must choose one's battles. I will be watching closely.

In the meantime I am submitting a Resolution to the House of Delegates of the Massachusetts Medical Society next week at their annual meeting to oppose Obamacare and to press the Attorney General and the State House to sue for nullification. I believe 38 other states are in some stage of advocacy of the nullification process.

Not too late for you to take possession of gold and silver bullion coins. The rise in price of gold is just at the beginning of a long term bull market given the debt crisis in the world and Bernanke's inclination to respond by rolling the printing presses as he has been doing. SIlver will do better given its smaller market, enormous industrial demand, short supply and its role as money in addition to gold. Check out www.APMES.com to see what is available and to follow the prices. Beware of high premiums on rare coins rather stick to bullion coins.

www.campaignforliberty.com 231,258

Succinct and accurate. I only wish we could wake up from this Kantian nightmare, but as you stated, we are living in era where they control the entire apparatus. How wholly unfortunate.

[imurray]

I think the electoral authorities should have figured out if Obama was eligible to be President BEFORE the election??

GS,

Of course they knew! But they realized that most people are ignorant of such things as details of the eligibility requirements of the Constitution for President.

They know that Obama was a valuable person for their purposes. He was well educated and eloquent. He was intelligent and crafty. He shared the establishment premises and know how to cash in on them. They knew he was a more appealing candidate than Hilary and could easily beat McCain. They appointed many judges who would not hear challenges by using the lack of standing argument. Specious to be sure but it has worked so far.

I can't believe you people. The bad guys in this game are truly evil and willing to use lies and deceit to achieve their goals. Why Obama is even willing to argue in public that his health plan will require individual mandates to raise the money to make it work. He has said in no uncertain terms that without such mandates it will not work. There are accepted mandates such as having auto insurance, compulsory public education, taxation for which there is evidently no actual law. They have us or most of us being compliant or in favor of their agenda. The media is in their pocket as are the courts and the public schools teachers and the university professors. The ideological foundation for their agenda is in place. They have been getting away with their interventions for decades with virtually no opposition of any strength.

"electoral authorities!" Give me a break! The only individuals who are interested in the truth are a handful of individuals to whom the truth and the Constitution matters.

I was kind of hoping there might be a few here on OL.

I am not going to go to Washington D.C. to march although I will be there in spirit.

One must choose one's battles. I will be watching closely.

In the meantime I am submitting a Resolution to the House of Delegates of the Massachusetts Medical Society next week at their annual meeting to oppose Obamacare and to press the Attorney General and the State House to sue for nullification. I believe 38 other states are in some stage of advocacy of the nullification process.

Not too late for you to take possession of gold and silver bullion coins. The rise in price of gold is just at the beginning of a long term bull market given the debt crisis in the world and Bernanke's inclination to respond by rolling the printing presses as he has been doing. SIlver will do better given its smaller market, enormous industrial demand, short supply and its role as money in addition to gold. Check out www.APMES.com to see what is available and to follow the prices. Beware of high premiums on rare coins rather stick to bullion coins.

www.campaignforliberty.com 231,258

Succinct and accurate. I only wish we could wake up from this Kantian nightmare, but as you stated, we are living in era where they control the entire apparatus. How wholly unfortunate.

Did you even read the article I linked to? It puts the natural born citizen argument raised here to bed and it was written way before this controversy - so it's free of a pro or anti Obama motive. It's just the facts - and they're very well referenced. If you want to keep your head in the echo chamber, be my guest. Before you start arguing with me about how evil Obama is - I'm only responding to the article you posted regarding Obama's eligibility to be president. I'm not debating you on health care reform or any issue.

If this isn't enough and you want to argue that the author and everyone she referenced and the legal communty were all Pro-Obama in 1988 - it could be argued that because Obama Sr. had not divorced his first wife before taking a second then because of the bigamy law Pres. Obama was born in the US to a single parent who was a US citizen. This is just as far fetched as the argument above, I know - but you seem to like conspiracy theories.

Ian

[galtgulch]

Succinct and accurate. I only wish we could wake up from this Kantian nightmare, but as you stated, we are living in era where they control the entire apparatus. How wholly unfortunate.

Prometheus,

Thanks for your response. I wouldn't blame the nightmare on Kant alone. I thought I would add Plato for sure, St. Augustine as well, and even the lesser mind of Keynes. Usually a trinity comes to mind such as mystic-altruist-collectivist. Our current financial crisis includes derivitives which amount into the quadrillions which is a precedent for a foursome.

Thus a Kantian-Augustinian-Keynesian-Platonic nightmare! Whoops I left out Obama himself and Marx.

Nevermind!

www.campaignforliberty.com 231,278

Update: Bernie Sanders the Senator who submitted S604,the companion to Ron Paul's HR1207, Federal Reserve Transparency Act of 2009, has submitted to pressure from the White House and removed crucial Paul-Grayson language from his bill limiting the scope of any audit of the Fed and only letting one such audit occur! Strange bedfellows. His office is 202 224 5141 for anyone willing to call him to register opinion or to urge him to reconsider.

Buy silver and gold bullion coins as the bull market in precious metals is gaining strength and has quite a ways to go. Remember not to ever sell them back into worthless paper currency. The purpose here is to maintain purchasing power rather than let your hard earned dollars lose value. Someday no one will accept the Federal Reserve Notes which is where your Mercury head dimes will come in handy.

[Chris Grieb]

I think the electoral authorities should have figured out if Obama was eligible to be President BEFORE the election??

GS,

Of course they knew! But they realized that most people are ignorant of such things as details of the eligibility requirements of the Constitution for President.

They know that Obama was a valuable person for their purposes. He was well educated and eloquent. He was intelligent and crafty. He shared the establishment premises and know how to cash in on them. They knew he was a more appealing candidate than Hilary and could easily beat McCain. They appointed many judges who would not hear challenges by using the lack of standing argument. Specious to be sure but it has worked so far.

I can't believe you people. The bad guys in this game are truly evil and willing to use lies and deceit to achieve their goals. Why Obama is even willing to argue in public that his health plan will require individual mandates to raise the money to make it work. He has said in no uncertain terms that without such mandates it will not work. There are accepted mandates such as having auto insurance, compulsory public education, taxation for which there is evidently no actual law. They have us or most of us being compliant or in favor of their agenda. The media is in their pocket as are the courts and the public schools teachers and the university professors. The ideological foundation for their agenda is in place. They have been getting away with their interventions for decades with virtually no opposition of any strength.

"electoral authorities!" Give me a break! The only individuals who are interested in the truth are a handful of individuals to whom the truth and the Constitution matters.

I was kind of hoping there might be a few here on OL.

I am not going to go to Washington D.C. to march although I will be there in spirit.

One must choose one's battles. I will be watching closely.

In the meantime I am submitting a Resolution to the House of Delegates of the Massachusetts Medical Society next week at their annual meeting to oppose Obamacare and to press the Attorney General and the State House to sue for nullification. I believe 38 other states are in some stage of advocacy of the nullification process.

Not too late for you to take possession of gold and silver bullion coins. The rise in price of gold is just at the beginning of a long term bull market given the debt crisis in the world and Bernanke's inclination to respond by rolling the printing presses as he has been doing. SIlver will do better given its smaller market, enormous industrial demand, short supply and its role as money in addition to gold. Check out www.APMES.com to see what is available and to follow the prices. Beware of high premiums on rare coins rather stick to bullion coins.

www.campaignforliberty.com 231,258

Succinct and accurate. I only wish we could wake up from this Kantian nightmare, but as you stated, we are living in era where they control the entire apparatus. How wholly unfortunate.

Did you even read the article I linked to? It puts the natural born citizen argument raised here to bed and it was written way before this controversy - so it's free of a pro or anti Obama motive. It's just the facts - and they're very well referenced. If you want to keep your head in the echo chamber, be my guest. Before you start arguing with me about how evil Obama is - I'm only responding to the article you posted regarding Obama's eligibility to be president. I'm not debating you on health care reform or any issue.

If this isn't enough and you want to argue that the author and everyone she referenced and the legal community were all Pro-Obama in 1988 - it could be argued that because Obama Sr. had not divorced his first wife before taking a second then because of the bigamy law Pres. Obama was born in the US to a single parent who was a US citizen. This is just as far fetched as the argument above, I know - but you seem to like conspiracy theories.

Ian

Ian; Talking to Gulch is a waste of time and I have tried but I'll have to remember what you said about Obama's father not being divorced from his first wife.

Gulch; Good luck with your resolution against Obamacare in your physicians group. I hope your reputation has not preceded you

[Prometheus]

I think the electoral authorities should have figured out if Obama was eligible to be President BEFORE the election??

GS,

Of course they knew! But they realized that most people are ignorant of such things as details of the eligibility requirements of the Constitution for President.

They know that Obama was a valuable person for their purposes. He was well educated and eloquent. He was intelligent and crafty. He shared the establishment premises and know how to cash in on them. They knew he was a more appealing candidate than Hilary and could easily beat McCain. They appointed many judges who would not hear challenges by using the lack of standing argument. Specious to be sure but it has worked so far.

I can't believe you people. The bad guys in this game are truly evil and willing to use lies and deceit to achieve their goals. Why Obama is even willing to argue in public that his health plan will require individual mandates to raise the money to make it work. He has said in no uncertain terms that without such mandates it will not work. There are accepted mandates such as having auto insurance, compulsory public education, taxation for which there is evidently no actual law. They have us or most of us being compliant or in favor of their agenda. The media is in their pocket as are the courts and the public schools teachers and the university professors. The ideological foundation for their agenda is in place. They have been getting away with their interventions for decades with virtually no opposition of any strength.

"electoral authorities!" Give me a break! The only individuals who are interested in the truth are a handful of individuals to whom the truth and the Constitution matters.

I was kind of hoping there might be a few here on OL.

I am not going to go to Washington D.C. to march although I will be there in spirit.

One must choose one's battles. I will be watching closely.

In the meantime I am submitting a Resolution to the House of Delegates of the Massachusetts Medical Society next week at their annual meeting to oppose Obamacare and to press the Attorney General and the State House to sue for nullification. I believe 38 other states are in some stage of advocacy of the nullification process.

Not too late for you to take possession of gold and silver bullion coins. The rise in price of gold is just at the beginning of a long term bull market given the debt crisis in the world and Bernanke's inclination to respond by rolling the printing presses as he has been doing. SIlver will do better given its smaller market, enormous industrial demand, short supply and its role as money in addition to gold. Check out www.APMES.com to see what is available and to follow the prices. Beware of high premiums on rare coins rather stick to bullion coins.

www.campaignforliberty.com 231,258

Succinct and accurate. I only wish we could wake up from this Kantian nightmare, but as you stated, we are living in era where they control the entire apparatus. How wholly unfortunate.

Did you even read the article I linked to? It puts the natural born citizen argument raised here to bed and it was written way before this controversy - so it's free of a pro or anti Obama motive. It's just the facts - and they're very well referenced. If you want to keep your head in the echo chamber, be my guest. Before you start arguing with me about how evil Obama is - I'm only responding to the article you posted regarding Obama's eligibility to be president. I'm not debating you on health care reform or any issue.

If this isn't enough and you want to argue that the author and everyone she referenced and the legal communty were all Pro-Obama in 1988 - it could be argued that because Obama Sr. had not divorced his first wife before taking a second then because of the bigamy law Pres. Obama was born in the US to a single parent who was a US citizen. This is just as far fetched as the argument above, I know - but you seem to like conspiracy theories.

Ian

I will say I am weary of this citizenship question. To me it is irrelevant, because things are being done to individuals in this country; this is reality. All that can be done now is to fight, tooth and nail, against the further erosion of our rights and liberties.

[imurray]

I wouldn't blame the nightmare on Kant alone.

Galt,

Do you even know what the term "Kantian nightmare" implies?

Good luck.

Ian

Edited May 7, 2010 by Panoptic

[George H. Smith]

Galt,

Do you even know what the term "Kantian nightmare" implies?

Good luck.

Ian

A world of masturbators and homosexuals? In Lectures on Ethics, Kant condemns "onanism" as an "abuse of the sexual faculty without any object," a practice that is "contrary to the ends of humanity and even opposed to animal nature. By it man sets aside his person and degrades himself below the level of animals." (Kant apparently never saw Chimpanzees in a zoo.)

Kant's condemnation of homosexuality is similar. When there is "homogeneity instead of heterogeneity" in sex, "this practice too is contrary to the ends of humanity; for the end of humanity in respect of sexuality is to preserve the species without debasing the person...."

This is way off topic, and deliberately so. The Obama qua Kenyan theory is a crock, and even if it were true, I wouldn't suggest anything be done about it. Any attempt to dethrone Obama on this basis would generate a constitutional crises of the first magnitude, especially given that he is the first black president, and it would only reinvigorate Obama's supporters. Let the guy

hoist himself by his own petard via his policies and actions, not his supposed place of birth. That Constitutional provision is antiquated in any case, and should be amended out of existence.

Ghs

[Chris Grieb]

Galt,

Do you even know what the term "Kantian nightmare" implies?

Good luck.

Ian

A world of masturbators and homosexuals? In Lectures on Ethics, Kant condemns "onanism" as an "abuse of the sexual faculty without any object," a practice that is "contrary to the ends of humanity and even opposed to animal nature. By it man sets aside his person and degrades himself below the level of animals." (Kant apparently never saw Chimpanzees in a zoo.)

Kant's condemnation of homosexuality is similar. When there is "homogeneity instead of heterogeneity" in sex, "this practice too is contrary to the ends of humanity; for the end of humanity in respect of sexuality is to preserve the species without debasing the person...."

This is way off topic, and deliberately so. The Obama qua Kenyan theory is a crock, and even if it were true, I wouldn't suggest anything be done about it. Any attempt to dethrone Obama on this basis would generate a constitutional crises of the first magnitude, especially given that he is the first black president, and it would only reinvigorate Obama's supporters. Let the guy

hoist himself by his own petard via his policies and actions, not his supposed place of birth. That Constitutional provision is antiquated in any case, and should be amended out of existence.

Ghs

Ghs; Ayn Rand and Kant seem to be on the same page about homosexuality

We are on the same page about Obama.

[imurray]

Galt,

Do you even know what the term "Kantian nightmare" implies?

Good luck.

Ian

A world of masturbators and homosexuals? In Lectures on Ethics, Kant condemns "onanism" as an "abuse of the sexual faculty without any object," a practice that is "contrary to the ends of humanity and even opposed to animal nature. By it man sets aside his person and degrades himself below the level of animals." (Kant apparently never saw Chimpanzees in a zoo.)

Kant's condemnation of homosexuality is similar. When there is "homogeneity instead of heterogeneity" in sex, "this practice too is contrary to the ends of humanity; for the end of humanity in respect of sexuality is to preserve the species without debasing the person...."

This is way off topic, and deliberately so. The Obama qua Kenyan theory is a crock, and even if it were true, I wouldn't suggest anything be done about it. Any attempt to dethrone Obama on this basis would generate a constitutional crises of the first magnitude, especially given that he is the first black president, and it would only reinvigorate Obama's supporters. Let the guy

hoist himself by his own petard via his policies and actions, not his supposed place of birth. That Constitutional provision is antiquated in any case, and should be amended out of existence.

Ghs

I haven't heard that in a while.

For 'tis the sport to have the engineer

Hoist with his own petar; and't shall go hard

But I will delve one yard below their mines

And blow them at the moon.

~William Shakespeare

Hamlet Act 3, Scene 4

[Prometheus]

Galt,

Do you even know what the term "Kantian nightmare" implies?

Good luck.

Ian

A world of masturbators and homosexuals? In Lectures on Ethics, Kant condemns "onanism" as an "abuse of the sexual faculty without any object," a practice that is "contrary to the ends of humanity and even opposed to animal nature. By it man sets aside his person and degrades himself below the level of animals." (Kant apparently never saw Chimpanzees in a zoo.)

Kant's condemnation of homosexuality is similar. When there is "homogeneity instead of heterogeneity" in sex, "this practice too is contrary to the ends of humanity; for the end of humanity in respect of sexuality is to preserve the species without debasing the person...."

This is way off topic, and deliberately so. The Obama qua Kenyan theory is a crock, and even if it were true, I wouldn't suggest anything be done about it. Any attempt to dethrone Obama on this basis would generate a constitutional crises of the first magnitude, especially given that he is the first black president, and it would only reinvigorate Obama's supporters. Let the guy

hoist himself by his own petard via his policies and actions, not his supposed place of birth. That Constitutional provision is antiquated in any case, and should be amended out of existence.

Ghs

Ghs; Ayn Rand and Kant seem to be on the same page about homosexuality

We are on the same page about Obama.

I was not referencing Kant's position on these topics, and frankly this seems like a random addition of something Kant said.

I would further like to argue that in no way is the citizen requirement provision antiquated. Any time anyone of any persuasion seeks to smash the Constitution, the first utterance that passes their lips is "how antiquated" the Constitution is. There is nothing wrong with wanting the president to know of this place, and of our ways.

I agree that this issue is a dead letter when it comes to Obama, and it should be dropped, but that does not mean we just eliminate the provision. It was designed to prevent alien ideas from infesting the American body politic.

[BaalChatzaf]

I agree that this issue is a dead letter when it comes to Obama, and it should be dropped, but that does not mean we just eliminate the provision. It was designed to prevent alien ideas from infesting the American body politic.

A fat lot of good this provision has done. The American body politic is shot through with collectivist garbage.

Ba'al Chatzaf

[sbeaulieu]

A fat lot of good this provision has done. The American body politic is shot through with collectivist garbage.

Ba'al Chatzaf

Two options:

1. Break down the old house and build a new one by drafting a new Constitution (although amendments would seem more appropriate).

2. Voting in the right people to apply the Constitution as intended, weeding out the collectivists and never, ever voting in far-left democrats.

~ Shane

[Prometheus]

I agree that this issue is a dead letter when it comes to Obama, and it should be dropped, but that does not mean we just eliminate the provision. It was designed to prevent alien ideas from infesting the American body politic.

A fat lot of good this provision has done. The American body politic is shot through with collectivist garbage.

Ba'al Chatzaf

It is shot through with collectivist garbage because the entire Western world has accepted and applied altruism for thousands of years. Only in brief, golden eras has the West thrown off these shackles and matured into Man.

The natural state of things is tyranny; it is why we must fight so furiously. Most people on Earth do not think. Just envision what a staggering burden that places on mankind, and then add the weight of subjective, whimsical, mystical and altruistic tendencies. However, this doesn't mean we start attacking the Constitution, and declaring it antiquated when the reality is that Man is forever outnumbered by men.

Sbeau, i quite like your originalist attitude. We need more like you.

Edited May 7, 2010 by Prometheus

[sbeaulieu]

Sbeau, i quite like your originalist attitude. We need more like you.

I appreciate the nod, thank you.

A great man once wrote, "Think of the solution, not the problem."

Problems abound and stare us in the face all day. It occupies our attention so much that we cannot see the solution standing right behind it. But it is difficult to sidestep issues when they take up the entire space of our concentration.

What do you do with an old house that is decrepit, or eaten through by termites? Usually, the foundation is in good order. You can't focus on the problem of how to treat wood that is beyond repair. Solution: replace it. Not being a one-person job, the task to bring others around to your line of thought will help to bring the solution to light. The Constitution would be no different. I'm certain the writers of the Constitution did not presume the document to be written in stone...that's why it's on paper ;)

However, I'm not educated enough on where the right place to start is. Ideas, I have plenty of those.

~ Shane

Edited May 7, 2010 by sbeaulieu