I Think I Still Fear My Father

[Mstar]

Hi OL,

I am a long time lurker here first time posting.

I'd like to post up what I've come to understand about myself and my father and hopefully get some feedback on areas where I can live more consciously or take some form of responsible action to alleviate some of the negative effects my past with my father is having on me.

I grew up with immigrant parents and beatings were a common thing. Getting smacked upside the head at the table, or being spanked in public places was not outside the boundaries of what either of my parents would do, however as a young kid I'm pretty certain I understood their reasoning and, although violent, my parents were or less just. While I was young I probably got some beats I didn't deserve but I was too young to realize, the problem began when I began to develop a sense of right from wrong. Having come from a communist country my parents no doubt had a very ingrained philosophy of subservience and when I showed the gall to go against their views in action and in philosophy that's when I began to see a side of my dad that I think still haunts me to this day. When I would try to stand up for myself and what I thought should be rights of my own - like doing my homework during the week instead of all on Monday when it was due friday - my dad would enter a rage I hadn't seen before basically going mental. Although he showed a lot of restraint during these episodes (i.e. hitting softer than usual) he also showed a lot more ferocity and would sometimes shake the crap out of me as a means of stopping himself from hitting me. The fact that I could see how much anger he was trying to keep inside and not let out made those soft hits and shakes that much more terrifying.

Im turning 20 soon and all the beatings have stopped for a long time. The rage fits still occur but he's enfeebled now so I try to sooth them by agreeing with him more for his sake than my own, however I feel like the past has had some lingering effects.

I noticed about a month ago that my phobic fear of violence may be connected to my dad. I use to be bullied in school, however the bullying began AFTER we moved out of a community housing area and into a nice suburban home, right around when I started talking back and asserting my views. I noticed from being confronted with a number of violent situations coincidentally in the same week, that every time I am faced with this kind of situation regardless of the size of the aggressor it's always the same feeling of helplessness that I felt in the presence of my dad or a bully. ( I should mention, I do martial arts, and often wrestle and spar with my friends and get injured in the process, adding more irrationality to the fear of smaller aggressors - also fear is a bad word for it, it feels more like a total shut down, all thinking stops in my mind, and in my body I feel completely weak. )

And finally, the real reason for writing this post. I got panic attacks for the first time in my life 6 months ago. After finding out about NB and Rand from a friend I managed to take some actions to increase my self-esteem and enjoyed the benefits of increased consciousness and a complete subsiding of the panic attacks. Since then I've had the feeling come close to coming over me twice, the first time was when I felt love for a person for the first time, and the second happened tonight on my way home. I tried to find something unique to tonight's situation and the only thing that comes to mind is that my mom has left the country today.

I think on some sub-conscious level I still fear my father. I know logically today that if he tried to use violence against me it couldn't hurt me but I think that part of me isn't aware of that yet.

With my mom gone for a while I'm thinking of sitting my dad down one of these days and talking this stuff through with him. He's incredibly close-minded and fear-driven however I think just talking at him in some of these situations may help me. I'm not afraid to hurt his feelings because I feel like whatever he did to me as a kid was just a manifestation of what his dad did to him. I feel like in some part of himself he feels the pain of not being able to have a benevolent relationship with his son. Has anyone here gone through something similar? Have any of you dealt with the irrational fear of parents? Do you think that me telling him that I no longer fear him, and telling him his violence can't hurt me anymore will have the desired effect on my internal world or do you think this is something I have to deal with internally some how?

I apologize if it sounds like I'm coming here looking for therapy, but I couldn't help but post this here. There are many brilliant people on this forum and a large concentration of people who will understand this from the conceptual psychological framework that has helped me so much in the past half a year.

[anthony]

Mstar,

My reaction to your post was a deeply internal one. For the 1000th time, it's come back to me, you've reminded me, that there is still a vulnerable child, usually hidden, sometimes revealed, in me, and I suppose in all of us.

And I'm pushing 60

With respect to your father, I'd hesitate to give you any advice, to confront him, or not. Maybe you are the best judge of that.

Aaah... our parents! What more can one say?

That you have discovered Nathaniel Branden is absolutely terrific - there is no one better, I believe. Although I've learned plenty from his work, and am still developing further, I feel I cannot try to emulate his wisdom, and so will leave it at that.

(One quote I recall is him talking about "deep and courageous self-assertiveness - letting others hear the music inside of you.")

Stay conscious, whatever else you do.

Best wishes, and welcome to OL.

Tony

[tjohnson]

With my mom gone for a while I'm thinking of sitting my dad down one of these days and talking this stuff through with him. He's incredibly close-minded and fear-driven however I think just talking at him in some of these situations may help me. I'm not afraid to hurt his feelings because I feel like whatever he did to me as a kid was just a manifestation of what his dad did to him. I feel like in some part of himself he feels the pain of not being able to have a benevolent relationship with his son. Has anyone here gone through something similar? Have any of you dealt with the irrational fear of parents? Do you think that me telling him that I no longer fear him, and telling him his violence can't hurt me anymore will have the desired effect on my internal world or do you think this is something I have to deal with internally some how?

I apologize if it sounds like I'm coming here looking for therapy, but I couldn't help but post this here. There are many brilliant people on this forum and a large concentration of people who will understand this from the conceptual psychological framework that has helped me so much in the past half a year.

Hi Mstar, sorry to hear about your troubles. I know a little about therapy and I will tell you this much. When you are a child you evaluate things differently that you do as an adult, in particular, you take things much more personally. So if you were beaten as a child you are likely to think there is something wrong with you whereas in reality there is something wrong with the parent. As you grow up and mature these feelings can become buried and interfere with your ability to adjust to this world and be happy so the idea of therapy is to talk about what happened but re-evaluate it as an adult. I would say ultimately it would be very nice if you could reconcile this with your father but I would not hold my breath. It's more important for you to make sure you have healed before you try to heal your father. You can try but if you feel the same old irrational emotions returning then you will know it is too much, too early and you should delay until you are stronger.

[Rich Engle]

I am very sorry to hear.

I think you are so very much on the right track, studying NB, doing Martial Arts (me too, for years and years). Both those things are very useful in your situation.

You are very young, but I bet sometimes you don't feel that way.

As to the MA/fear of smaller opponents thing--it is a thinking man's game. Master Ed Parker said it more or less like this: "You have to shock their mind." Just work on mental attitude during sparring.

And a lot of this is just going to take time; there is no substitute for that.

A nice thing NB once mentioned was something like "You can't control the behavior of others, but you can certainly control your own."

You'll be OK! Just keep doing what you are doing, and stay strong.

Best,

rde

[Peter]

Mstar wrote:

I got panic attacks for the first time in my life 6 months ago . . . the feeling come close to coming over me twice . . . the second happened tonight on my way home. I tried to find something unique to tonight's situation and the only thing that comes to mind is that my mom has left the country today . . . I apologize if it sounds like I'm coming here looking for therapy, but I couldn't help but post this here.

End quote

You might try putting this question in the Psychology section, if you haven’t already. I have no training in psych.

As a layman’s suggestion, as far as panic attacks go, I would suggest disassociating yourself from the emotion the situation is generating (which may be contrary to Nathaniel Branden who I have not read, but I remember he wrote a book called, "The Disowned Self.") If you were on the playground again, and you were assailed by a bully and felt panic, I would think of it as a serious but not life or death situation, and this might work with more adult situations too.

I would take the initiative almost like in a game of playful wrestling, and grapple with the bully but not try to kill him, and think, “He will not try to kill me.” If he takes a swing I will put him on his back and threaten to knock his teeth out from my commanding position above him, but offer him a way out. Now judo or jujitsu is really good because it allows levels of force, while an incapacitating or kill blow using karate or military taught self defense might not be advisable (not the least, for legal reasons.)

Use strategy in an emotionless way - take slow, deep breaths and calm yourself, then take the initiative, one small step at a time.

Semper cogitans fidele,

Peter Taylor

[Brant Gaede]

You need to do abreactive psychological exercises with professional help. Gestalt therapy might be best for you. If you find that idea too scary, and such work can be scary, you might work with Nathaniel Branden on the phone if you don't live in LA. The new stuff he does might bypass that.

--Brant

Edited April 23, 2010 by Brant Gaede

[DavidMcK]

Since I went through something similar than you (but not as bad) I can tell you that the problem isn't between you and your parents any longer, it is between you and you. That can be hard to accept but I find it impressive how you can write and read about all this, plus your discovery of N.B. I have to echo others who recommend Branden, (which you know already) but it helps I think to hear people say: You are on the right track. The sentence completion method is helpful, but I wasn't helped much till I worked my way all the way through one set of exercises. I wish all you describe hadn't happened to you; can you say to yourself when bullies are around "This is not my father." ? Wishing you all the best.

[Guyau]

Milos,

Welcome to Objectivist Living.

You are sure good at thinking about these things. Your childhood experience with Father are familiar to me. They were common in America decades ago, especially in rural areas. My folks were first-generation off the farm. They beat the kids severely and not infrequently—just as they had been raised themselves. The complete subservience of the children was from the Christian tradition, particularly the Fourth Commandment. There was no talking back to parents such as ours. My brother remarked to me years later that he thought he and I were so fanatic about freedom because we had none as children.

I was lucky, however, that by the time I moved from reciting the ideas of my parents to having ideas of my own (junior high and high school) my parents were listening and apparently pleased with the mind if not all the ideas. My father had some flaws as a parent, and there were some things (especially, boxing my teenage brother in the face on one occasion) for which I hated him. In the pattern Freud and others observed, at your age I was somewhat estranged from my father, but later became well reconciled (which was a long and subtle process). When I was about five years older than you are, I was reading some book by Nathaniel Branden, a book I no longer have and whose name I don’t recall. I think it was one that included sentence completion exercises. A feeling came to me in a flash, and with it the realization of how very much I loved my father. That was good to find out for his remaining years.

I never had panic attacks. I have known older people who have had conditions like that. I’d be careful about self-diagnosis of such episodes. Tell your regular MD about them. There are some serious physical conditions that could possibly lead to such episodes; the doctor could check for them.

Best wishes,

Stephen

[Philip Coates]

Mstar,

Have you thought of talking to a professional, someone who does counseling or whose job is to deal with emotional and psychological issues, to help one introspect, become aware of unresolved issues, address self-esteem, address buried family issues?

At age 20, you probably can't afford to pay for that - unless your school offers it as a free service in confidence. But there are mutual "support groups" for all kinds of issues that people deal with that one can find through directories and on the internet. Just because someone posts on an Objectivist list or is 'intelligent', doesn't mean he is a professional or can diagnose or advise at a distance. Or has good instincts.

Beware of well-meaning but inexperienced or unprofessional advice.

Edited April 26, 2010 by Philip Coates

[Mstar]

I wanted to take some time to really let the responses here sink in, and also to do some personal thinking on this topic for myself before writing out a reply.

First off I'd like to thank all of you who took the time to reply to this post. I was expecting to get maybe one or two responses but a lot of people here took the time to share which I greatly appreciate.

@whyNOT: I'm glad I could help you bring more light to your own past. I think you're absolutely right NB is amazing and I think even just from his work I have learned more than I ever would about myself having not found it.

@generalsemanticist: Wow, thanks for that insight about taking things personal as a child. I can already see from other examples in my life how key that is to understanding some of the irrational fears and anxieties I sometimes feel below the surface of my experience. It rings particularly true in terms of my social interactions. Where as a child I was usually left alone for long periods of time and couldn't plan effectively with friends to avoid spending weekends alone I took it to mean that I was wrong and would be rejected. That is a response I've worked very hard to overcome in one of my goals of creating an amazing peer group for myself. Thanks!

@Rich Engle: You're absolutely right about Martial Arts being a thinking mans game. A glaring example of this comes to mind.

Last months UFC between Anderson Silva and some other young competitor was a brilliant display of a guy who absolutely destroyed, and dominated his opponent -'s mind. It was a picture perfect example of the champion shocking the competitors mind, and rendering him ineffective for 5 rounds of nauseating boredom - from my perspective, watching it on a Saturday night.

You've also made me realize that perhaps I need to bring more conscious awareness to achieving higher integration while sparring and doing martial arts. I'm certain if I bring the purpose of becoming more well adjusted and comfortable in violent scenarios to the practice I could use it as a safe place to practice facing up to some of my fears.

Finally

And a lot of this is just going to take time; there is no substitute for that.

This struck a huge chord with me. You're absolutely right. I learn about taking responsibility for myself, setting goals, and then in the midst of an incoming panic attack forget all of that and start looking for the magic pill again. I think I'm on the right track, growing as a person, working on my self-esteem and confronting the issues as they come up.

Thank you for your comment.

@Peter Taylor: Thanks for your advice,

I think you're absolutely right about the breathing exercises and helping to bring a conscious distinction between the aggressive behavior of a bully in the play ground or night club and the fear of a near-death situation.

I'd just like to point out for anyone reading this however, and for your own consideration, that NB actually recommends the opposite for dealing with anxiety. From reading his books, and doing my own introspective work on myself I've found a correlation between the anxiety I feel and the alienation I feel from some parts of myself. His book The Disowned Self is all about how disassociating from our feelings, values, thoughts and memories is one of the major impediments to our psychological growth to adulthood. Also in terms of the nature of anxiety attacks I think that psychotherapists who preach disassociation are hurting their patients more than they know.

NB write in one ( or two ) of his books of one client who perfectly illustrates the cycle of how an anxiety attack comes on. The client had stage fright, and the more he thought about performing the more tense he became. The more tense he became the more his heart rate and breathing became spastic and the more his stage fright seemed terrifying, perpetuating a cycle till panic took hold.

This corroborates with my own experiences. The more I tried to tense up my body, the worse the feeling became, the more I tried to run from it by any means, the more I had to tense up against it. I've found that as scary as it is, letting it wash over you is the best way to sooth it.

@Brant Gaede: Yup, I have a friend who does hypnotherapy so I'll see if he can help out some. If not I'll be saving up about 2k to buy some sessions with NB himself. It's pretty expensive but I wouldn't hesitate if after doing a consultation with him he thinks he can help. I would rather invest this money in myself and my future than spend it on a vehicle, I think that can wait.

@ David McK: Thank you for answering one of my questions.

At the time when I wrote the orignal post I was hoping for the opposite answer but shortly after posting it I knew in my gut, as well, that the problem was purely internal. Thanks for the kind sentiments, I can feel how personal this must be to you from your post and I appreciate your sharing. I think my ability to write about my past in detail may be a sign of my ability to dissociate from things to protect myself from them, which I guess is both my blessing and my curse right now. I see a future where it will prove to have been a wise decision and the launching pad for a life lived in the pursuit of happiness instead of on a mad dash away from fear.

@Stephen Boydstun: Hahaha, if it isn't religion, it's communism.

My folks were primarily nonreligious, however they had a firm belief in the state and the beliefs espoused by the society of our currently torn to shreds homeland (Former Yugoslavia - Serbia). And just like in your story, there is an unspoken commandment "do not question authority." I appreciate your comment, especially the part about reconciling with your father. Me and my pops don't speak much, but we keep up a relationship based on our mutual admiration of sports. I could see how in the future I could get along better with him, but I think first I would need to find myself more. Know who I am at a deeper and more stable level, and get rid of any past fears of him that may be trapped in my psyche. Then I think I could look at him when he's being brilliant and when he's being idiotic without having a reaction beyond that which is appropriate to the scenario at hand.

As for the panic attacks, could you elaborate on the part about physical conditions?

I talked to my family MD and he didn't even let me finish speaking before he started talking about putting me on a steady dosage of pills. This discouraged me, and another MD who I consulted told me the exact opposite, that I was fine and that my problem was internal. Philosophically speaking though one was a strict materialist and the other a devout Jew. I think from my own reading of the issue and my situation every sign points away from a physical cause. My pathology is inconsistent, I believe with a physical condition because when they first occurred they were horrible, with one night me staying up 7 hours waiting for sun rise having rolling attacks, and then shortly after being able to live completely free of them until I hit a success barrier.

@Philip Coates: Yeah, I'm seeking help from NB himself soon to hopefully help me fast track with him what might take me years to unravel reading his work and doing my own introspective work.

I wouldn't trust most free clinics for psychology because psychology, although a field beloved to me, is rampant with irrational premises that remain unquestioned. I believe in the power of my own mind to tell me when something is wrong, and theories like social determinism, behaviorism and other psychological theories influenced by the preceding make me very reticent to trust the therapy offered by free sources. I definitely appreciate your warning though, and I take it to heart that you mean well so thank you for that.

And finally.

What I decided to do about this situation:

1) I've e-mailed NB and will get into contact with him when he returns to the country. I'm still waiting to hear about financing options, and if none are available I'll have to wait probably till September before I can begin to work with him. I am excited I decided to take this step.

2) Until I do work with NB, I'll be doing sentence completions focused mostly on self-acceptance and self-responsibility the 2 areas I feel my self-esteem needs the most nurturing in. As well as listening to self-hypnosis and doing further research into some forms of healing meditation (I'm not a mystic, however, the validity of meditation in healing is much like hypnosis where it is a series of suggestions given in the form metaphors to the 'energy systems' of the body. Which could also be viewed as tension spots) and NLP.

3) I realized the other day that in the last few months since I began to be more introspective and read NB I've cried more than I have in any part of my life. It's come to my attention that although I don't think this is intrinsically a positive thing I also find it isn't intrinsically a negative thing. I think that a lot of my childhood was spent putting on a show and NOT crying at the injustices my parents put me through for many reasons. I realized that even today if I need to cry in my own house I have to mute it and make sure no one sees the after math. I think this response to crying says a lot about my past with emotions.

I recall that same patient NB talks about in one of his books who has the panic attacks out of stage fright. NB helps him through it by telling the patient to feel the anxiety and then try to express it as best as he can, the client screams at the top of his lungs and has other reactions that would be deemed 'abnormal' but afterward feels better. He frees the emotion by expressing it to himself. I want to be ready for my next (assuming I have another one) panic attack. I want to find a safe space where I can make as much noise as I need to and not be disturbed and see what happens when instead of trying to suppress the anxiety and the fear I go into it - and express it in whatever way feels right.

Thank you so much to everyone who replied. And to anyone who has read this entire post, I am aware that I wrote a behemoth, but it felt really good to write!

[DavidMcK]

Fantastic post! I love your decision and how purposeful you are and hope you write back after you start with N.B. to tell us how it is going.

One note of caution: Your plan might not fit into N. Branden's plan so he might not be accepting new clients right now (I noticed his website advertises for his services as a 'Life Coach' for people who are beyond traumatizing experiences). If you asked him to suggest an alternative psychologist to work with as your back-up plan his knowledge of psychologists in the area might be very helpful.

Edited April 26, 2010 by DavidMcK

[equality72521]

Hi OL,

I am a long time lurker here first time posting.

I'd like to post up what I've come to understand about myself and my father and hopefully get some feedback on areas where I can live more consciously or take some form of responsible action to alleviate some of the negative effects my past with my father is having on me.

I grew up with immigrant parents and beatings were a common thing. Getting smacked upside the head at the table, or being spanked in public places was not outside the boundaries of what either of my parents would do, however as a young kid I'm pretty certain I understood their reasoning and, although violent, my parents were or less just. While I was young I probably got some beats I didn't deserve but I was too young to realize, the problem began when I began to develop a sense of right from wrong. Having come from a communist country my parents no doubt had a very ingrained philosophy of subservience and when I showed the gall to go against their views in action and in philosophy that's when I began to see a side of my dad that I think still haunts me to this day. When I would try to stand up for myself and what I thought should be rights of my own - like doing my homework during the week instead of all on Monday when it was due friday - my dad would enter a rage I hadn't seen before basically going mental. Although he showed a lot of restraint during these episodes (i.e. hitting softer than usual) he also showed a lot more ferocity and would sometimes shake the crap out of me as a means of stopping himself from hitting me. The fact that I could see how much anger he was trying to keep inside and not let out made those soft hits and shakes that much more terrifying.

I saw this post when I first came to this site and have avoided posting here for personal reasons however due to another thread I will post here then I plan to expand what I say here into a general advice parenting thread(Something suggested to me by a friends brother).

When I was younger I did not know my father for which I later became greatful. Instead it was my younger brother who beat me(18 months younger). To briefly describe how physically fit he was when we were younger I saw a picture a few months ago from when he was 4 and he had a six pack. He had ADHD and went into fits of rage easily. I was thirteen the first time I ever struck him and he beat me pretty bad some times (cracked some ribs). The worst part was that I was a complete and utter god fearing self immolating altruist. He had ADHD which was not his fault, he had a short fuse and hot temper which was not his fault. I was careless with my words or actions and sent him off. While the actors are different my brother your dad the underlying problem is exactly the same. Your dads particular philosophy or his reasons for doing what he did/does is unimportant except in so far as your ability to understand the why empowers you prevent being the victim in the future. With that said I would say that being in a country where his every thought was controlled his every action dictated probably lead to a control issue. I say this as a warning. There are two possible reactions to this kind of treatment your father chose one (to become the controller) the other choice is to become the victim (the controlled). I had the unfortunate experience of doing both, trust me when I say neither work out in the end.

There is one thing you posted above however that I really want to focus on: "Although he showed a lot of restraint during these episodes (i.e. hitting softer than usual) he also showed a lot more ferocity and would sometimes shake the crap out of me as a means of stopping himself from hitting me." What I see here is an attempt to minimize your fathers actions. This may or may not have been your conscious intent however I pay special attention to peoples sentence structures and the words they choose. What I see here is someone who wants to love their father, who feels an obligation toward him. It is something which is very difficult to overcome especially when you know that they wanted the best for you and though that their actions were going to help you. I would ask if you have ever told your father exactly how he made you feel.

Im turning 20 soon and all the beatings have stopped for a long time. The rage fits still occur but he's enfeebled now so I try to sooth them by agreeing with him more for his sake than my own, however I feel like the past has had some lingering effects.

The very fact that you think the past has had a lingering effect means that it has. "An emotion as such tells you nothing about reality, beyond the fact that something makes you feel something. Without a ruthlessly honest commitment to introspection—to the conceptual identification of your inner states—you will not discover what you feel, what arouses the feeling, and whether your feeling is an appropriate response to the facts of reality, or a mistaken response, or a vicious illusion produced by years of self-deception . . . .

In the field of introspection, the two guiding questions are: “What do I feel?” and “Why do I feel it?”

Philosophy: Who Needs It “Philosophical Detection,”

Philosophy: Who Needs It, 17."

You need to examine your emotion and determine if they are a rational response to reality or if they are phobic in their intensity and origin. If your father was wrong for treating you the way he did, if he is wrong for doing what he does than it is a crime to placate him.

Again referring to my brother. I will never forget the first time I hit him. I was 13 years old and had reached a breaking point in my life. Nothing I did was good enough, I sacrificed myself I did everything required by duty. I never asked for presents at Christmas because I knew how hard my mom worked to buy presents and pay the bills, I never raised my voice, I never hit anyone ever. I gave up my entire self and was completely selfless, when there was not alot of food in the house I would not eat for two or three days so my brother and mother could eat, or if I ate it was very little. One day my brother hit me, I warned him not to do it again I was angry and couldn't understand why the world was so insane so irrational, why when the well was dry they kept coming back for more, why i kept getting beaten. He hit me again and I snapped, I hit him once in the face twice in the sternum then picked him up fueled by adrenaline rage over my head and was ready to throw him into a wall (he was about 20lbs heavier than I) and in the moment before I smashed him against the wall I started crying in shock and fear that of what I had just done and nearly done. Looking back now I am able to asses the situation but to this day I cannot say if I should or should not have hit him. What i do know is that I would take it back in an instant if I could, not because what I did was wrong but because it was wrong to allow someone else to determine my emotions and actions. I reacted not acted.

I noticed about a month ago that my phobic fear of violence may be connected to my dad. I use to be bullied in school, however the bullying began AFTER we moved out of a community housing area and into a nice suburban home, right around when I started talking back and asserting my views. I noticed from being confronted with a number of violent situations coincidentally in the same week, that every time I am faced with this kind of situation regardless of the size of the aggressor it's always the same feeling of helplessness that I felt in the presence of my dad or a bully. ( I should mention, I do martial arts, and often wrestle and spar with my friends and get injured in the process, adding more irrationality to the fear of smaller aggressors - also fear is a bad word for it, it feels more like a total shut down, all thinking stops in my mind, and in my body I feel completely weak. )

As I said above I know exactly what you mean. I remember a turning point in my life (after my Nietzschien phase) i was about 16, I absolutely hated bullies. I would never stick up for myself (reminance of altruism) but if i saw someone else being bullied I would get violently angry. two boys were beating up on a much smaller kid after school, I took no prisoners, I didn't hold back. I do not attribute my beating them to any special talent on my part only to my increased pain tolerance from the beatings I received at the hands of my brother. What is important though is what I felt during and after. for the first time in my life when dealing with bullies I did not feel anger, contempt, or rage. I was at peace the entire time, emotionally the task was the same as carrying out an unpleasant piece of trash. You don't hate smelly trash, you don't rage at it, you pick it up and carry it outside to the dumpster and get rid of the smell. I was in the Right, I did not need to assert my rightness through force though that is the form it took. after that day I became more self aware and self concerned. I stopped reacting to people, I controlled my emotions. I directed them they did not direct me. What was Right was Right and that is what I stood for against anyone who said otherwise.

This is what you need to do. Question everything absolutely everything find what is right and stick with it, if you defend what is good and right and true you will find a strength you didnt know you had.

And finally, the real reason for writing this post. I got panic attacks for the first time in my life 6 months ago. After finding out about NB and Rand from a friend I managed to take some actions to increase my self-esteem and enjoyed the benefits of increased consciousness and a complete subsiding of the panic attacks. Since then I've had the feeling come close to coming over me twice, the first time was when I felt love for a person for the first time, and the second happened tonight on my way home. I tried to find something unique to tonight's situation and the only thing that comes to mind is that my mom has left the country today.

I want to warn you to be careful not to become a zealot. Randroidism is bad. The important thing is to internalize the principles of Rand. Many people move too fast and absorb the concretes of Rand without understanding its the concepts and principles which are important. Always ask questions and always use logic. I would actually say begin there, there are some good intro to logic books you should pick up.

I think on some sub-conscious level I still fear my father. I know logically today that if he tried to use violence against me it couldn't hurt me but I think that part of me isn't aware of that yet.

I would question your assertion that violence would not hurt you. I have personally learned that psychological trauma is much worse than physical. even if he did not hurt you at all physically could you assert that you would not be seriously damaged psychologically?

With my mom gone for a while I'm thinking of sitting my dad down one of these days and talking this stuff through with him. He's incredibly close-minded and fear-driven however I think just talking at him in some of these situations may help me. I'm not afraid to hurt his feelings because I feel like whatever he did to me as a kid was just a manifestation of what his dad did to him. I feel like in some part of himself he feels the pain of not being able to have a benevolent relationship with his son. Has anyone here gone through something similar? Have any of you dealt with the irrational fear of parents? Do you think that me telling him that I no longer fear him, and telling him his violence can't hurt me anymore will have the desired effect on my internal world or do you think this is something I have to deal with internally some how?

I did not know my father until I was 12 in fact I though I was conceived the same way as Jesus until I was 10 (i did not think i was Jesus). My father was a violent and angry man, my mom left him because he drank and used drugs. the man actually had so much contempt for me he put LSD in my food one night. He only beat me once. my brother and I had just had a verbal fight over something i dont remember what. He pulled down my brothers pants and hit him with a belt three times, my brother cried and he stopped. I had a much higher pain tolerance so i didnt cry, on the third strike he told me he would stop when I cried. I did not cry, I hated him and would not give him that satisfaction. He stopped when his arm got soar. When he was done I went into the living room and sat down on the couch next time him and watched TV he told me I was grounded from the TV so i got up jumped the fence walked up the bock to the end fell forward on my knees and burst out sobbing in pain. The last time I saw him I told him if I ever saw him again I would kill him (I was 13), he believed me. I have talked to many headshrinkers about this only one of whom understood the moral. confronting your father is not the best idea in the world, however it is clear you need to get this off your chest. I would suggest that you write it out do it as many times and in as many drafts as it takes. once you think you have said what you want to say and how you want to say it put it some where and leave it for three days to a week then come back to it and reread it. if you still think it says what you want then sit down with him and read it to him if you can if not then give it to him.

I apologize if it sounds like I'm coming here looking for therapy, but I couldn't help but post this here. There are many brilliant people on this forum and a large concentration of people who will understand this from the conceptual psychological framework that has helped me so much in the past half a year.

Blessings of Prometheus upon you and may you find peace.

[Peter]

What ever happened to Matar and David Lee too? I wish they were back. They were two, totally honest dudes.

Peter