Islam

[Leonid]

Adonis-Re: Qur'an 2:94-96. Aaidh ibn Abdullah al Qarni definitely relates this verse to Jews. He comments” there is the choice of the words “one thousand years". Perhaps the reason for this stems from the tradition of Jews that when they would meet each other, their greeting was "Live for a thousand years."". And this is total fantasy, Jews don't have such a tradition, they greet each other exactly as Muslim do- with "Shalom aleichem". Jewish idea of longevity is 120 years (Moses' life), and that what they may wish each other. Furthermore author says “Allah reproached them (Jews) for desiring such a long life. (“Don't Be Sad" pg 269). It seems that you disagree. Can you clarify? It also seems that this is the common pattern of your argument: to beat the straw man, the imaginary enemy, instead to address the real problem.

To which Jews is the verse referring to? All Jews? No.. It's talking about a people that were spoken to by Prophet's from Moses thereon up until the Prophet Muhammad, it's not referring to Jews but all such self righteous hypocrites no matter what religion or people they come from.. That is a lesson for all and is not specific to Jews

Also, I'm not sure of this alleged tradition, but I've never heard a Jew say it nor have I heard an Islamic scholar claim that Jews say it and anyone that does is ignorant. The only Jews I've met who give a specific greeting have, as you mentioned only used Shalom aleichem.

Also, the books such as "Don't be sad" are Wahhabi books.. Surely you know me well enough by now to know that I disagree with Wahhabi teachings.

1. Fair enough, although I don't really understand why somebody's wish to live thousand years makes him hypocrite. Also I didn't get an impression that "Don't be sad" has any Wahhabi teaching. This book teaches happiness from the Islamic point of view.

2. " The Hijacked Caravan" is an excellent monograph, which apparently presents not very popular views on Islam which are not known to the vast majority of pious Muslim fighters, as well as Qur'an verse "“Do not kill yourselves. Verily, Allah is Merciful to you. And, whoever does that, out of aggression and injusice. We shall burn him in a Fire. And that is easy for Allah." ( Qur'an, 4:29-30). Otherwise how one can explain that in Iraq alone every day about 50 Muslims die as result of suicide bombing? (Nevermind Israel and the West).

3."My statement about Zionists having to leave was very specific. I stated that if no peace agreement was concluded and there should, at some point in the future come a military power that overwhelms Israel and takes it over, then those Israelis that don't wish to live in a one state solution that is not a Zionist state should be sent back to Europe or any other country that would have them, if they want to live in a state that is united then great, let them stay.. Kahane called for the expulsion of all Arabs regardless of their political affiliation."

In my youth, about 30 years ago I've been introduced to Kahane's ideology and even met him in person. I can assure you that your position is a mirror image of his teaching. He advocated voluntary transfer of hostile Arabs from Israel because he believed that they never will be able peacefully co-exist with Jews. "In order to keep Arabs, whom he stated would never accept Israel as a Jewish state, from demographically destroying Israel; he proposed paying Arabs to leave Israel and those territories voluntarily, and forcibly removing those who would not. Kahane proposed a $40,000 compensation plan for Arabs who would leave voluntarily, force "for those who don’t want to leave,” (Wikipedia)

Since the vast majority of Jews who live in Israel are Zionists, that is-they see Israel as the only national home for Jewish people; you practically advocate an expulsion of whole Jewish population of Israel. If anybody on this thread can spot the difference between yours and Kahane's position, I’d be glad to learn about that. The only difference is that Kahane’s toxic teachings have been widely condemned by Israelis and by Jewish Diaspora and your ideas about Jewish transfer are very popular in the Muslim world. Besides, your idea that "in the future come a military power that overwhelms Israel and takes it over" belongs to the realm of wishful thinking, exactly as ideas of Kahane.

Edited May 15, 2010 by Leonid

[Libertarian Muslim]

Okay Adonis,

I will take a stab at this part of your comments. Without having read the entire thread, I would like to jump in to address very flawed reasoning in your logic and misstatements about Gaza.

My reasoning isn't flawed at all. You say so because you believe in the premise that Israel has the innate right to exist, I dispute that because the right to exist means that there was some how a right to take land which was supposed to become an Arab state and to create Israel out of it. There was no such right. Therefore, I don't believe Israel has the right to exist as a nation state until such a time that the Israelis and Arabs reach some type of peace agreement that grants that right to Israel as a part of the agreement. Until such a point in time it is a military occupation.

Now do I think that means that every Israeli is a valid target? No.. Only armed Israelis are and that includes every single adult settler living in the 1967 designated 'Occupied Territories' that is required to carry a firearm.

If we agreed about the premise that Israel had some magical innate right to exist and that those Zionists had God given the right to take the land from the Arabs to create their own state despite the fact that the Arabs had been there far longer for a continuous amount of time in comparison and that the agreements made between the British and Arabs as a part of the British Mandate of Palestine then undoubtedly, my reasoning would be flawed.. But I don't agree with that premise at all. Therefore, my reasoning is sound.

Thailand officials seized a North Korean plane last year whose cargo was a weapons cache will of rockets and other weaponry. The type of weapons were such that they could be used in ground-to-ground combat and which are found being used by Hamas and Hezbollah against Israeli cities and armed forces.

You cannot deny that Hamas is building tunnels from Gaza into Israel as a means of smuggling weapons into the area and that Hamas has deliberately stored the weapons they use against the Israelis in population centers essentially using Gaza civilians as human shields.

Yes, and Israel receives hundreds of millions of dollars worth of military arms and aid from the US and other nations which they use against the Palestinians..

So you don't like Palestinians using unguided rockets against the Israelis due to the possibility of civilian casualties right? Well that's fair enough, I don't like it either..

So would you then be in favor of the Palestinians obtaining modern precision guided missiles that could target the Israeli military with pinpoint accuracy thus limiting the possibility of civilian casualties?? I doubt it, meaning that your problem isn't so much with the types of weapons that the Palestinians use, rather it is with the fact that the Palestinians are resisting the occupation of their land.

When Israel (despite their best efforts to warn civilians before retaliating for the rocket attacks Hamas conducts) hits back and destroys weapons caches where civilians are, Hamas instantly blames Israel for civilian casualties.

So why has Israel broken ceasefires that they have agreed to with Hamas when Hamas has adhered to them, targeting Hamas and also having a blockade on Palestinians?

Hamas also uses the tunnels they have constructed as a means to kidnap Israeli soldiers too. The entire Gaza Stip is now (and may previously been) used as a place to arm and train terrorists.

You can't kidnap a soldier occupying your land, you can only take him as a prisoner of war..

In 2006 Iran announced they would send money to aid Hamas which Hamas uses to purchase weapons they use against Israelis in terrorism or missle strikes.

Yes, fantastic.. No all Hamas needs to get is guided missiles so that they can limit the possibility of unarmed Israelis dying.

It would be a mistake to allow Iran to have nukes. If their support of Hamas is any guide, it is a fact that Iran arms and trains terrorists. Once the country has nuclear technology they can then develop the means to arm and train terrorist groups they support in the use of dirty bombs.

It is Hamas, not Israel, that is hell-bent on death and destruction and you know that Israel has to fend almost for itself against it's neighbors who are predominately Muslim and are dictatorships. Israel has had to fight numerous wars of self defense just to be able to maintain her existence.

Dirty Bombs? Oh please.. Let's give up the dirty bomb fallacy please.. A dirty bomb is useless and you'd be either insane or uneducated to think that it could kill more than one person.. There is no harm in Iran gaining such weapons because neither government is stupid enough to use it on each other at that point because of mutually assured destruction. Right now Israel doesn't have to worry about that because they are the only ones with nuclear weapons.

Countries like Syria, Jordan and even Iran resent Israel because of the prosperity she enjoys and it's obvious they want to bring Israel down.

Yeah.. sure.. prosperity is the reason why Iran and Syria resent Israel.. It couldn't have been those 60 years of occupation of Arab land at all.. It must be because of Israel's prosperity.. Just like the notion that people don't like the US because of the freedoms that US citizens enjoy(ed)..

Iran has no interest in peace especially since the country's President has said he wants Israel wiped off the map and has attended rallies where attendees loudly chant Death to America!

So I get the impression you are either in denial or trying to excuse the behavior or countries like Iran and groups like Hamas ignoring the evil they committ.

I get the impression that you're uneducated.. Iran's president never said that about Israel..

Also, the death to America chant has been shouted in Iran since the 70's.. What does it mean? It means death to American interventionalist and imperialist policies in the world, particularly within the Middle East like the CIA's overthrowing of Iran's president in the 1950's, the support of the Shah and Iraqi attacks on Iran in a war that lasted 10 years that the US was behind, where Iraq used chemical weapons of mass destruction against Iranian cities, supplied by their European and American masters..

[Brant Gaede]

The war with Islam, now over 1000 years old, goes on.

--Brant

[Libertarian Muslim]

The war with Islam, now over 1000 years old, goes on.

--Brant

What war with Islam?

[Brant Gaede]

The war with Islam, now over 1000 years old, goes on.

--Brant

What war with Islam?

Now that's the most disingenuous question I've ever read.

--Brant

[BaalChatzaf]

The war with Islam, now over 1000 years old, goes on.

--Brant

What war with Islam?

Yoo hoo? Remember the Crusades? And then the Turks invading Hungary and Romania. It has being going on a long time.

Ba'al Chatzaf

[Libertarian Muslim]

The war with Islam, now over 1000 years old, goes on.

--Brant

What war with Islam?

Yoo hoo? Remember the Crusades? And then the Turks invading Hungary and Romania. It has being going on a long time.

Ba'al Chatzaf

You really think you're at war with Islam now? You can't be serious.. Huge numbers of Muslims live in the West and enjoy excellent lives and don't try and cause trouble, if you were at war with Islam that would not be the case..

[BaalChatzaf]

The war with Islam, now over 1000 years old, goes on.

--Brant

What war with Islam?

It is conceivable that the U.S. is not at war with the Ummah, but it is quite clear some rather extremist elements in the Islamic world are at war with the U.S.. The Outrage of 9/11 was an act of war.

Ba'al Chatzaf

[Libertarian Muslim]

It is conceivable that the U.S. is not at war with the Ummah, but it is quite clear some rather extremist elements in the Islamic world are at war with the U.S.. The Outrage of 9/11 was an act of war.

Ba'al Chatzaf

It's not only conceivable, it's the truth.. At this stage there is no war against the Ummah, especially by the USA..

You see that is what the extremists try and make impressionable youth believe, that there is a war on Islam and that they have to defend Islam from such attacks..

There is no such war, Muslims find greater freedom to practice their religion, peace and harmony in most occasions in places like the USA in comparison to other places in the Muslim world. This whole clash of civilizations idea is silly..

The fact is that there are more than 1.5 billion of us and we're most certainly not cowards, if we all perceived that there was a physical war against our religion then we'd fight..

Sure there may be some countries that are war with Islam ideologically, fearing extremism and an Islamization of Europe but they do so out of fear of what their future holds.. But that can all be resolved, it just takes time and patience, especially on the part of the Muslims who should remember back through history and remember the 11 years that the Muslims were patient through greater hardships cast out from their own homes for their choice in religion.. That was far worse than anything Muslims in such European countries and the US have had to endure.. It's just unfortunate that most Muslims are uneducated.. They don't ask, what would the Prophet, peace be upon him would do? Instead they act on emotion and stupidity..

I worry about my ummah..

Edited May 16, 2010 by Adonis Vlahos

[Leonid]

Adonis "I worry about my ummah...”

And you have very good reason. Instead to fight poverty by developing modern technology and just society based on the principles of reason and inalienable rights ummah is spending its very limited resources on the war, mainly with itself. In Iraq and Pakistan Muslims kill Muslims on industrial scale. Ummah support most fanatical backward oppressive Muslim regimes like Iran, Hamas and Hezbollah. Leading ideologists of Islamism attack Arab league because its principal agreement to recognize Israel within the 1967 borders. Iranian ayatollahs, all great scholars of Islam mercilessly suppress any quest for the freedom in their own country and seek to obtain the position of leadership in the Islamic world by means of dangerous nuclear games and rabid anti-Semitism. The irony is that all these tyrants who constantly throttle basic rights of their own people present themselves as liberators of Palestine. And after 62 years of failed military confrontation with Israel some Muslims still entertain the idea that “at some point in the future come military powers that overwhelms Israel and takes it over". This is the blind alley of Islamic civilization.

Edited May 16, 2010 by Leonid

[BaalChatzaf]

Adonis "I worry about my ummah...”

And you have very good reason. Instead to fight poverty by developing modern technology and just society based on the principles of reason and inalienable rights ummah is spending its very limited resources on the war, mainly with itself. In Iraq and Pakistan Muslims kill Muslims on industrial scale. Ummah support most fanatical backward oppressive Muslim regimes like Iran, Hamas and Hezbollah. Leading ideologists of Islamism attack Arab league because its principal agreement to recognize Israel within the 1967 borders. Iranian ayatollahs, all great scholars of Islam mercilessly suppress any quest for the freedom in their own country and seek to obtain the position of leadership in the Islamic world by means of dangerous nuclear games and rabid anti-Semitism. The irony is that all these tyrants who constantly throttle basic rights of their own people present themselves as liberators of Palestine. And after 62 years of failed military confrontation with Israel some Muslims still entertain the idea that “at some point in the future come military powers that overwhelms Israel and takes it over". This is the blind alley of Islamic civilization.

Instead of flourishing they want to kill the Jews.

Ba'al Chatzaf

[Libertarian Muslim]

Adonis "I worry about my ummah...”

And you have very good reason. Instead to fight poverty by developing modern technology and just society based on the principles of reason and inalienable rights ummah is spending its very limited resources on the war, mainly with itself. In Iraq and Pakistan Muslims kill Muslims on industrial scale. Ummah support most fanatical backward oppressive Muslim regimes like Iran, Hamas and Hezbollah. Leading ideologists of Islamism attack Arab league because its principal agreement to recognize Israel within the 1967 borders. Iranian ayatollahs, all great scholars of Islam mercilessly suppress any quest for the freedom in their own country and seek to obtain the position of leadership in the Islamic world by means of dangerous nuclear games and rabid anti-Semitism. The irony is that all these tyrants who constantly throttle basic rights of their own people present themselves as liberators of Palestine. And after 62 years of failed military confrontation with Israel some Muslims still entertain the idea that “at some point in the future come military powers that overwhelms Israel and takes it over". This is the blind alley of Islamic civilization.

What a load of nonsense.. Absolute rubbish..

1. The US Supports the MAJORITY of the dictatorships in the Middle East including by preventing their governments by being overthrown by their people.

2. The problems in Pakistan and Iraq are due to US intervention in those nations leading back to the 1970s.. The US government holds responsibility for the continuing violence in these countries.

3. Hezbollah isn't a regime, it's not in power and whatever representatives it does have in parliament were democratically elected by the people. They aren't trying to make an 'Islamic State' they are simply working to liberate Southern Lebanon from Israeli occupation and get back the thousands of Lebanese prisoners (majority civilian) that were taken by the Israelis since 1982.

4. Hamas has agreed to the Arab League's stance on the Arab Peace Initiative and are happy for it to be implemented and thus are willing to recognize Israel within the framework of the 1967 borders. Iran respects Hamas' decision, unlike the US. Hezbollah also accepts that proposal because it means Israel will leave Southern Lebanon.

5. There's no proof that Iran has developed or intends to develop nuclear weapons. In fact they just signed a deal with Turkey and Brazil to do nuclear fuel swapping. The reason why they pulled out of the other deals is because they have been tricked into the past in giving up technology etc and have always been promised things but then the US and other nations pull out of the deal.. Iran trusts Turkey a lot more than it trusts the US or Russia.

6. You are right about one thing, the governments that aren't supported by the US like Syria and Iran are tyrannical.. But how does the US help the situation? It gives them more popularity by behaving in a manner that indicates that the wish of the US Govt is to destabilize their nations and create havoc, even attacking and invading.. Instead of supporting democracy as it should and leading through example.. Democracy doesn't interest the US Government when it comes to the Middle East because they have no intention of giving the best possible life to people living there as freedom to those people means less US influence in the region..

7. You think that Israel won't lose its military dominance? That's a foolish way to think.. The Crusader State lasted more than 100 years before we retook it.. Things change, Hezbollah's defeat of the Israeli military in the 2006 war gave a confidence back to the Arab world that Israel can be defeated in battle, and Hezbollah isn't even really an army.. They are a resistance group.. The only thing that Israel could do to stop confidence from building would be to attack an Arab state, probably Hezbollah again which they've already indicated a wish to do.. But that would be a huge gamble.. Hezbollah is better armed and supported now than it has ever been.. If Israel loses twice then it'll only make Hezbollah more popular.. The only way Israel could win is by using far more force than it did in 2006 which was already huge and mostly directed against civilians.. I saw whole neighborhoods in South Beirut were demolished by the Israelis.. But this would only make them look bad in the world stage.. Israel's only option now is to take peace talks with the Arabs seriously and try and negotiate and agree to a solution.. If not then it will bring its own demise..

Instead of flourishing they want to kill the Jews.

Ba'al Chatzaf

Who wants to kill Jews? Iran? They have a whole population of Jews in their own country they could kill if they really wanted to.. But they don't.. Hezbollah and Hamas? No, they want to liberate occupied lands from Zionists.. But for them they'd much prefer to come to some negotiated settlement to avoid future casualties..

[Leonid]

Adonis: "1. The US Supports the MAJORITY of the dictatorships in the Middle East including by preventing their governments by being overthrown by their people.2. The problems in Pakistan and Iraq are due to US intervention in those nations leading back to the 1970s... The US government holds responsibility for the continuing violence in these countries."

This statement represents the typical example of the blame culture which dominates Muslim world. Muslims kill Muslims and blame for that Americans and Jews. Blind alley indeed.

Adonis:"3. Hezbollah isn't a regime, it's not in power and whatever representatives it does have in parliament were democratically elected by the people. They aren't trying to make an 'Islamic State' they are simply working to liberate Southern Lebanon from Israeli occupation and get back the thousands of Lebanese prisoners (majority civilian) that were taken by the Israelis since 1982."

Hezbollah and not Israel occupied Southern Lebanon. They created their own State, which is independent from the central government with their own army, police and courts. In fact they represent occupational forces of Iranian regime which established the reign of terror in Southern Lebanon and turned the life of civilian population to the living hell.

Adonis: “4. Hamas has agreed to the Arab League's stance on the Arab Peace Initiative and are happy for it to be implemented and thus are willing to recognize Israel within the framework of the 1967 borders"

Hamas is refusing to recognize the right of Israel to exist and refusing to participate in any negotiations with Israel The only business transaction they know is an exchange of Jewish and Arab blood for petrol-dollars. For seven years they attacked Israel with their primitive Kassam missiles not in order to achieve any political or military goal, but for the sole purpose to provoke Israeli retaliation and to get as many Arab martyrs as possible. Unfortunately Israel granted to them their wish.

Adonis" 5. There's no proof that Iran has developed or intends to develop nuclear weapons."

I don't think they even able to develop it. But they play foolish games (as late Saddam Hussein did) in order to become leading political power in the Muslim world. They may end-up exactly as Saddam did.

Adonis "6. You are right about one thing, the governments that aren't supported by the US like Syria and Iran are tyrannical... But how does the US help the situation?"

We don't discuss US here. They also have a lot to answer for. They have "noble intentions" which usually pave the road to hell. But this is different topic.

Adonis: "7. You think that Israel won't lose its military dominance? That's a foolish way to think... The Crusader State lasted more than 100 years before we retook it... "

Keep dreaming, but remember that Israel is capable to bomb Hezbollah and, in fact the whole country to the dust, even without nuclear weapons. Israel employed against Hezbollah less than 5% of it military might in order to preserve Arab and Jewish lives. You see, Israelis don't believe in martyrdom.

Adonis "Israel's only option now is to take peace talks with the Arabs seriously and try and negotiate and agree to a solution...”

Israel is begging for negotiations since 1948. When Arabs took it seriously, the result was peace agreement with Egypt and Jordan. If other Arab leaders would have the same quality of guts as Anwar Saadat and King Hussein, the peace in the Middle East could have been established long time ago

Edited May 18, 2010 by Leonid

[Libertarian Muslim]

This statement represents the typical example of the blame culture which dominates Muslim world. Muslims kill Muslims and blame for that Americans and Jews. Blind alley indeed.

Oh please, the whole West's example is that of a arsonists who sets bushfires and then cuts cuts of the water supply and then blames people for not being able to keep the flames from engulfing their homes.

Hezbollah and not Israel occupied Southern Lebanon. They created their own State, which is independent from the central government with their own army, police and courts. In fact they represent occupational forces of Iranian regime which established the reign of terror in Southern Lebanon and turned the life of civilian population to the living hell.

Have you ever been to Southern Lebanon or even South Beirut? I have.. The only police and courts there are that of the Lebanese government, not Hezbollah and Hezbollah is recognized by the Lebanese government as the national resistance against Israeli occupation of Lebanese land and not as a militia. They are incredibly popular even amongst Christians and Sunnis, particularly after the 2006 war when they defeated the Israeli mlitary.

Israel is the occupier.

Hamas is refusing to recognize the right of Israel to exist and refusing to participate in any negotiations with Israel The only business transaction they know is an exchange of Jewish and Arab blood for petrol-dollars. For seven years they attacked Israel with their primitive Kassam missiles not in order to achieve any political or military goal, but for the sole purpose to provoke Israeli retaliation and to get as many Arab martyrs as possible. Unfortunately Israel granted to them their wish.

You're a liar. I've stated this many times and I know for a fact that you've seen the proof of where Hamas has stated that they'd be willing to recognize Israel's right to exist as a part of a peace process along the 1967 borders which is the Arab Peace Initiative..

I don't think they even able to develop it. But they play foolish games (as late Saddam Hussein did) in order to become leading political power in the Muslim world. They may end-up exactly as Saddam did.

Iran has the second strongest military and political power in that region.

We don't discuss US here. They also have a lot to answer for. They have "noble intentions" which usually pave the road to hell. But this is different topic.

No, of course you don't want to discuss the US.. Because the US has blood on its hands that it can't wash off.. It's just like Saddam Hussein's trial.. They wanted him tried for something they had no real hand in and then executed as quickly as possible so he wouldn't spill the beans about exactly how close his relationship to the US government was.

Keep dreaming, but remember that Israel is capable to bomb Hezbollah and, in fact the whole country to the dust, even without nuclear weapons. Israel employed against Hezbollah less than 5% of it military might in order to preserve Arab and Jewish lives. You see, Israelis don't believe in martyrdom.

Israel has the capability to turn Lebanon into dust, that's correct.. But that doesn't mean they are able to win such wars, simply because killing everyone doesn't necessarily mean you'd win.

Israel is begging for negotiations since 1948. When Arabs took it seriously, the result was peace agreement with Egypt and Jordan. If other Arab leaders would have the same quality of guts as Anwar Saadat and King Hussein, the peace in the Middle East could have been established long time ago

No, they don't want peace because peace requires a just solution, not one sided.. The Arab Peace Initiative is a fair deal and they won't agree to it.

Edited May 19, 2010 by Adonis Vlahos

[Leonid]

Adonis, I'd like to remind you that at least on Objectivist site simple denial of argument doesn't constitute a proof. You have to support your claims with the evidence. Since you denied my arguments, the onus of proof is on you. I'm waiting.

[Libertarian Muslim]

Adonis, I'd like to remind you that at least on Objectivist site simple denial of argument doesn't constitute a proof. You have to support your claims with the evidence. Since you denied my arguments, the onus of proof is on you. I'm waiting.

I've given the proof again and again yet you still say the same thing.. Which indicates to me that you're either terribly daft or you deliberately lie..

Again, watch this interview where Khalid Meshaal, head of Hamas says that they're willing to go along with the Arab Peace Initiative and then retract your comments.

[Leonid]

Adonis, your half truths are worse than lie. Khaled Meshal simply stated that he agrees to the establishment of Palestinian State in the borders prior to 1967. He never said that he recognizes the right of Israel to exist. Actually he said "Hamas would not submit to pressure to recognize Israel, because the occupation is illegitimate and we will not abandon our rights, nor would it disarm, but would work to create a unified Palestinian army. Hamas "believes that the land of Palestine has been an Islamic waqf throughout the generations and until the Day of Resurrection, no one can renounce it or part of it, or abandon it or part of it. Hamas chapter calls for the elimination of Israel and Jews from Islamic holy land and portrays the Jews as evil, citing an anti-Semitic version of history going back to the Crusades. It also includes a reference to the noted czarist forgery of a plan for world domination, "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion," and condemnation of supposedly Zionist organizations like the Rotary Club and the Masons.Salah al-Bardawil, a Hamas candidate, said that "had we spoken of eliminating and eradicating Israel within this period, we would have been deceiving our people and repeating false slogans." Still, he said, Hamas emphasizes "the elimination and nonrecognition of Israel."(New York Times, January 29, 2006).

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/01/29/international/middleeast/29hamasx.html?_r=1

Please understand that you, Adonis, and the people of your ilk cannot fool all the people all the time. You have said "You're a liar. I've stated this many times and I know for a fact that you've seen the proof of where Hamas has stated that they'd be willing to recognize Israel's right to exist as a part of a peace process along the 1967 borders which is the Arab Peace Initiative...”

Now you have to decide who is the liar-you or the leaders of Hamas . You both cannot be right. I think that there is overwhelming evidence that you are consciously lying through your teeth.

Edited May 19, 2010 by Leonid