Interesting Take on Islam and Libertarianism

[Xray]

Neither you nor I have ever witnessed a miracle. Except the one and only miracle, to wit, there is something rather than nothing. Everything we have ever witnessed close up and first person is the result of natural processes.

Is it our brain's inability to explain why (what we in everyday language) call "matter" exists at all, that leads many to assume a "superior intelligence" as the creator of all this?

Question to Adonis: do you accept the theory of biological Evolution, or are you a Creationist?

Edited February 5, 2010 by Xray

[Selene]

Ms. Xray:

Question for you, are you live, or memorex...

Adam

[Libertarian Muslim]

Adonis:

Unfortunately, when this country gets hit again and unfortunately it is going to be very soon, as I see it..

The probes are increasing because of the weakness that is being projected.

Muslim Chaplain Arrested for Smuggling Box Cutters into Prison

Posted: 03 Feb 2010 12:30 PM PST

Prisons continue to be breeding grounds for jihadi recruitment, just like the mosque and the madrassas. With Muslim chaplains like this, little wonder 36 Americans that converted to Islam in prison are now waging jihad in Yemen.

And what in the hell was he, or the prisoners he was going to give them to, planning to do with the box cutters? Surely, they were up to some "peaceful" purpose!

Related:

The Roots of Radical Islam in Prison

Prison Jihad? How radical Islamic charities exploit their access to the prison system.

Time for DoD to Overhaul its Muslim Chaplain Program

I do not speak for the validity of the Related links as I have not explored them yet.

When we get hit the backlash is going to be rabid.

Adam

what a waste of human effort this garbage has become

As a former prison chaplain, I wonder why such people weren't vetted and checked to ensure they weren't going to cause trouble in prisons.. In Melbourne we didn't allow people like that in prisons because they try and create violent 'jihad' in the prison system..

This war, as I have said can't be won through war.. It's a war of ideas and terrorist attacks will become impossible to stop.. The US government is going about it the wrong way and this will lead to the demise of the US through over extending its military and through over spending..

[Xray]

Question to Adonis: do you accept the theory of biological Evolution, or are you a Creationist?

I'm interested in Adonis's reply.

[Selene]

Question to Adonis: do you accept the theory of biological Evolution, or are you a Creationist?

I'm interested in Adonis's reply.

Wow...Ms. Xray is not only a member of PETA [People Eating Tasty Animals], but now she is a member of NAGS [National Association of Gals] as the evil Rush Limbaugh has named NOW [National Organization of Women].

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=rXHYcK7TCIg

Adam

[Libertarian Muslim]

Question to Adonis: do you accept the theory of biological Evolution, or are you a Creationist?

I think that God created the universe and that He set in motion a series of events that were the method of creating the universe as we know it.. That what did happen was the process to it.. I won't speculate as to the exact process because I don't know enough about it..

So I am, perhaps a Creationist..

[Selene]

Adonis:

Are you familiar with this gentleman, Zaid Shakir?

In the Name of God, the Compassionate, the Merciful

A Common Word between Us and You

(Summary and Abridgement)

Muslims and Christians together make up well over half of the world’s population. Without peace and justice between these two religious communities, there can be no meaningful peace in the world. The future of the world depends on peace between Muslims and Christians.

The basis for this peace and understanding already exists. It is part of the very foundational principles of both faiths: love of the One God, and love of the neighbour. These principles are found over and over again in the sacred texts of Islam and Christianity. The Unity of God, the necessity of love for Him, and the necessity of love of the neighbour is thus the common ground between Islam and Christianity. The following are only a few examples:

http://www.acommonword.com/index.php?lang=en&page=option1

Zaid Shakir (born Ricky D. Mitchell, 1956) is a prominent American Islamic Scholar, and Writer, who moved with his family in 2003 to serve as a Professor and Lecturer at Zaytuna Institute in California, United States, where he now teaches regular courses on Arabic, Law, History, and Islamic Spirituality. He is one of the signatories of A Common Word Between Us and You^[1], an open letter by Islamic Scholars to Christian Leaders, calling for peace and understanding.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zaid_Shakir#cite_note-0

His website:

http://www.acommonword.com/index.php?lang=en&page=option1

Adam

[Libertarian Muslim]

Adonis:

Are you familiar with this gentleman, Zaid Shakir?

In the Name of God, the Compassionate, the Merciful

A Common Word between Us and You

(Summary and Abridgement)

Muslims and Christians together make up well over half of the world’s population. Without peace and justice between these two religious communities, there can be no meaningful peace in the world. The future of the world depends on peace between Muslims and Christians.

The basis for this peace and understanding already exists. It is part of the very foundational principles of both faiths: love of the One God, and love of the neighbour. These principles are found over and over again in the sacred texts of Islam and Christianity. The Unity of God, the necessity of love for Him, and the necessity of love of the neighbour is thus the common ground between Islam and Christianity. The following are only a few examples:

http://www.acommonword.com/index.php?lang=en&page=option1

Zaid Shakir (born Ricky D. Mitchell, 1956) is a prominent American Islamic Scholar, and Writer, who moved with his family in 2003 to serve as a Professor and Lecturer at Zaytuna Institute in California, United States, where he now teaches regular courses on Arabic, Law, History, and Islamic Spirituality. He is one of the signatories of A Common Word Between Us and You^[1], an open letter by Islamic Scholars to Christian Leaders, calling for peace and understanding.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zaid_Shakir#cite_note-0

His website:

http://www.acommonword.com/index.php?lang=en&page=option1

Adam

Yes I am very aware of him, he's an excellent scholar of Islam and just an amazing human being dedicated to justice.. He accepted Islam whilst he was in the US Airforce..

He and Shiekh Hamza Yusuf both run the Zaytuna Islamic Seminary in California..

Edited February 14, 2010 by Adonis Vlahos

[anonrobt]

Curiosity - how do you answer such as this -

http://frontpagemag.com/2010/02/12/hating-valentine%E2%80%99s/

It is not enough to say ye disagree - on what basis can ye say they not Islamic in what they proclaiming ?

[BaalChatzaf]

Is it our brain's inability to explain why (what we in everyday language) call "matter" exists at all, that leads many to assume a "superior intelligence" as the creator of all this?

What creator?

Ba'al Chatzaf

[Libertarian Muslim]

Curiosity - how do you answer such as this -

http://frontpagemag.com/2010/02/12/hating-valentine%E2%80%99s/

It is not enough to say ye disagree - on what basis can ye say they not Islamic in what they proclaiming ?

I had a feeling that this would come up.. The Saudi Wahhabis are religious extremists and no one really likes them or trust their ideas.. I mean even in other Wahhabi countries Valentines is celebrated..

Valentines day is not against Islam at all.. In fact it should be celebrated as it was a stand against tyranny and oppression that resulted in its creation..

I wrote this on my facebook for my friends..

As I'm sure you're all aware.. Today is Valentines day!

I thought I'd write a quick note informing you about the origins of Valentines day so we could perhaps reflect together on its importance throughout history.. Rather than focus too much on the commercial value and hype that is put on it.. I know a lot of people say it's a waste of time or that it's an ungodly type of holiday due to how it's been misused recently but in fact it has very beautiful roots..

Contrary to what the department stores and media portray it as in all of the commerciality of it.. Valentines Day is a wonderful holiday celebrating a struggle against injustice and proving that love for freedom, for your soul mate and for God is worth dying for..

In the late 3rd Century Emperor Claudius II of Rome forbade his people from marrying so that the men could spend more time on the battlefield.. Yet a priest by the name of Valentine still married people in secret breaking the laws of Claudius.. Claudius eventually had Valentine beaten with clubs and stoned, when that didn't kill Valentine, Claudius had him beheaded which ended Valentine's life.. Thus making him a martyr..

So Valentine died resisting against oppression not only of the body, but also of the soul and the heart..

That is why we have Valentines day.. So in the spirit of Love and Resistance, I wish you my beautiful friend a Happy Valentines Day and pray that you all find love in your lives in some form which brings you contentment..

Adonis

[Xray]

Is it our brain's inability to explain why (what we in everyday language) call "matter" exists at all, that leads many to assume a "superior intelligence" as the creator of all this?

Ba'al Chatzaf:

What creator?

Ba'al Chatzaf

Except the one and only miracle, to wit, there is something rather than nothing.

What miracle?

Edited February 14, 2010 by Xray

[BaalChatzaf]

Is it our brain's inability to explain why (what we in everyday language) call "matter" exists at all, that leads many to assume a "superior intelligence" as the creator of all this?

Ba'al Chatzaf:

What creator?

Ba'al Chatzaf

Except the one and only miracle, to wit, there is something rather than nothing.

What miracle?

A miracle in the sense of not having an explanation. The question: why is there something rather than nothing simply does not have an answer.

Ba'al Chatzaf

[Selene]

Curiosity - how do you answer such as this -

http://frontpagemag....tine%E2%80%99s/

It is not enough to say ye disagree - on what basis can ye say they not Islamic in what they proclaiming ?

I had a feeling that this would come up.. The Saudi Wahhabis are religious extremists and no one really likes them or trust their ideas.. I mean even in other Wahhabi countries Valentines is celebrated..

Adonis

Adonis:

That type of petty..."I gotcha type of attacking" by association may be funny when done satirically, but that was just a plain gotcha post.

I am interested in accepting your projection of Islam as the one that can be dealt with rationally.

Said Shakir apparently argues against firearms. It was represented by a trustworthy source, but without the exact quote in context this could be just spin.

Therefore, I am cautiously representing that he apparently is attempting to deflect the Fort Hood Jihadist attack onto the "firearm".

That kind of argument will not even get into the batters box, let alone get to hit a pitch.

Here is the article:

"Imam Zaid Shakir, described as being among "the most influential Islamic scholars in the West," tells us not to blame jihad, or radical, extremist, Islamic fundamentalism, for the shooting rampage at Ft. Hood last November, but "easy access to guns," as he explains here, in an attempt to link Ft. Hood to Columbine and Virginia Tech.

The common denominator is easy access to guns. The common denominator is that there are more guns in America than there are human beings. There are more guns in America than human beings, and they are easily had. And if someone tries to limit their accessibility, they're going to be challenged by the NRA, the National Rifle Association–one of the most powerful lobbies in this country.

The thing is, it has become pretty clear that Major Hassan was waging jihad, in accordance with what he thought was his duty as a radical, militant, fundamentalist Muslim. This is made abundantly clear by the a cleric with apparent ties to not only Hassan, but some of the 9/11 hijackers, as well.

The Muslim U.S. Army major accused of shooting dead 13 people at Fort Hood last Thursday was a "hero" who faced a choice of betraying his nation or betraying Islam, according to a radical U.S.-born cleric whose possible links with Maj. Nidal Hasan are now under investigation.

The cleric, Anwar al-Awlaki, led a northern Virginia mosque in 2001 which was attended by Hasan - and by three of the 9/11 hijackers.

Furthermore, the "common denominator" in jihadist attacks is not guns--the most devastating attacks tend to use bombs, with the most infamous committed on U.S. soil, of course, using utility knives.

Still, that doesn't stop Shakir from proposing exactly the kind of "solution" we have come to expect from the killers' apologists.

So if we are serious as a society about stopping this violence, it doesn't behoove us to demonize Muslims. We're here to talk about Muslims, I'm not trying to dodge that, but if behooves us to make it far, far, far more difficult for people to get their hands on a gun.

Shakir doesn't bother to explain how one would go about making it impossible for an Army officer to get a gun, and he certainly doesn't deal with the little issue that the massacre was stopped by someone with a gun. It was, in fact, the general unavailability of guns that allowed the rampage to go on as long as it did.

I don't fault American Muslims who decry violent extremism for distancing themselves from the killers, and I believe just as much in their Constitutionally guaranteed freedom of religion as that of amyone else. I do, however, strongly object to being told that the best way to protect ourselves from terrorism is to disarm ourselves."

The source is the St. Louis Gun Rights Examiner - a pro firearms, pro second amendment source.

If you can point me toward the total context of his statement, I would appreciate it.

By the way, I heard Michael Vlahos on the John Batchelor radio show Friday or Saturday night. I like him a lot, I am glad you found what I sent you useful.

Adam

Edited February 14, 2010 by Selene

[Libertarian Muslim]

Curiosity - how do you answer such as this -

http://frontpagemag....tine%E2%80%99s/

It is not enough to say ye disagree - on what basis can ye say they not Islamic in what they proclaiming ?

I had a feeling that this would come up.. The Saudi Wahhabis are religious extremists and no one really likes them or trust their ideas.. I mean even in other Wahhabi countries Valentines is celebrated..

Adonis

Adonis:

That type of petty..."I gotcha type of attacking" by association may be funny when done satirically, but that was just a plain gotcha post.

I am interested in accepting your projection of Islam as the one that can be dealt with rationally.

Said Shakir apparently argues against firearms. It was represented by a trustworthy source, but without the exact quote in context this could be just spin.

Therefore, I am cautiously representing that he apparently is attempting to deflect the Fort Hood Jihadist attack onto the "firearm".

That kind of argument will not even get into the batters box, let alone get to hit a pitch.

Here is the article:

"Imam Zaid Shakir, described as being among "the most influential Islamic scholars in the West," tells us not to blame jihad, or radical, extremist, Islamic fundamentalism, for the shooting rampage at Ft. Hood last November, but "easy access to guns," as he explains here, in an attempt to link Ft. Hood to Columbine and Virginia Tech.

The common denominator is easy access to guns. The common denominator is that there are more guns in America than there are human beings. There are more guns in America than human beings, and they are easily had. And if someone tries to limit their accessibility, they're going to be challenged by the NRA, the National Rifle Association–one of the most powerful lobbies in this country.

The thing is, it has become pretty clear that Major Hassan was waging jihad, in accordance with what he thought was his duty as a radical, militant, fundamentalist Muslim. This is made abundantly clear by the a cleric with apparent ties to not only Hassan, but some of the 9/11 hijackers, as well.

The Muslim U.S. Army major accused of shooting dead 13 people at Fort Hood last Thursday was a "hero" who faced a choice of betraying his nation or betraying Islam, according to a radical U.S.-born cleric whose possible links with Maj. Nidal Hasan are now under investigation.

The cleric, Anwar al-Awlaki, led a northern Virginia mosque in 2001 which was attended by Hasan - and by three of the 9/11 hijackers.

Furthermore, the "common denominator" in jihadist attacks is not guns--the most devastating attacks tend to use bombs, with the most infamous committed on U.S. soil, of course, using utility knives.

Still, that doesn't stop Shakir from proposing exactly the kind of "solution" we have come to expect from the killers' apologists.

So if we are serious as a society about stopping this violence, it doesn't behoove us to demonize Muslims. We're here to talk about Muslims, I'm not trying to dodge that, but if behooves us to make it far, far, far more difficult for people to get their hands on a gun.

Shakir doesn't bother to explain how one would go about making it impossible for an Army officer to get a gun, and he certainly doesn't deal with the little issue that the massacre was stopped by someone with a gun. It was, in fact, the general unavailability of guns that allowed the rampage to go on as long as it did.

I don't fault American Muslims who decry violent extremism for distancing themselves from the killers, and I believe just as much in their Constitutionally guaranteed freedom of religion as that of amyone else. I do, however, strongly object to being told that the best way to protect ourselves from terrorism is to disarm ourselves."

The source is the St. Louis Gun Rights Examiner - a pro firearms, pro second amendment source.

If you can point me toward the total context of his statement, I would appreciate it.

By the way, I heard Michael Vlahos on the John Batchelor radio show Friday or Saturday night. I like him a lot, I am glad you found what I sent you useful.

Adam

I wouldn't know the context of his statement, I haven't read the whole thing.. I also have never said that I agree with his political statements..

[Xray]

Is it our brain's inability to explain why (what we in everyday language) call "matter" exists at all, that leads many to assume a "superior intelligence" as the creator of all this?

Ba'al Chatzaf:

What creator?

Ba'al Chatzaf

Except the one and only miracle, to wit, there is something rather than nothing.

What miracle?

Ba'al Chatzaf

A miracle in the sense of not having an explanation. The question: why is there something rather than nothing simply does not have an answer.

I looked up "miracle" in the etymological dictionary. Its root is proto-indo-European *(s)mei- "to smile, be astonished".

Still, one would not connotatively attribute the word "miracle" to everything which can't be explained.

Several decades ago, astronomists had no explanation for the characteristics of the objects they called quasars. Now they know more about it.

But as for the "miracle" of matter being there at all, we won't ever get an explanation. We are so used to think in "cause and effect" relations that there is tendency to ask "What is the cause of matter?".

Self-created "ex nihilo" is totally inconceivable, but having been there always is as inconceivable. Maybe there exist other higher developed beings in the universe to whose brains the answer to these questions is less mysterious ...

Then there are the sheer dimensions of it. Human mind can't grasp infinity, but can human mind even grasp "finity" when confonted with a number of 100 billion galaxies in the part of the universe we have been able to observe so far? 100 billion! And to imagine all that being concentrated to infinitely small density before the "big bang" - again, can human mind grasp it?

Edited February 19, 2010 by Xray

[Selene]

Ms. Xray:

Great post.

Well thought out.

Adam

[9thdoctor]

Ms. Xray:

Great post.

Well thought out.

Adam

Adam has praise for Xray? We've just witnessed a miracle!

BTW this Lawrence Krauss lecture does speak to the latest thinking on these issues:

http://www.objectivistliving.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=7921&st=0&p=90632&hl=lawrence%20krauss&fromsearch=1entry90632

[Brant Gaede]

Is it our brain's inability to explain why (what we in everyday language) call "matter" exists at all, that leads many to assume a "superior intelligence" as the creator of all this?

Ba'al Chatzaf:

What creator?

Ba'al Chatzaf

Except the one and only miracle, to wit, there is something rather than nothing.

What miracle?

A miracle in the sense of not having an explanation. The question: why is there something rather than nothing simply does not have an answer.

Ba'al Chatzaf

There can't be nothing since if there could be it would be something.

Since there can't be nothing there has to be something and, as we know, many somethings. The more logical question is why one thing and not another thing, both by nature and quantity. There can be no sensible answer to the question "Why doesn't nothing exist?" The question doesn't make sense.

--Brant

[BaalChatzaf]

There can be no sensible answer to the question "Why doesn't nothing exist?" The question doesn't make sense.

--Brant

The "question" is: Why is there something? I am not sure this is a real question and even if it is, there is no answer to it. I suspect it is a pseudo question, i.e. a string of words that has the grammatical form of a question.

"nothing" is a noun with no referent. It is in the same grammatical class as "something" or "anything" which permits it to be used as a kind of perverse pun. (Thank whatever you will that there are quotation marks).

Ba'al Chatzaf

[Xray]

There can't be nothing since if there could be it would be something.

There is no something called "nothing". "Nothing" = 'no thing', i. e. the absence of something.

Same with "nobody". "Nobody was there" does not mean a Mr. Nobody was there. Nobody = 'no body' = no person.

"nothing" is a noun with no referent.

See above.

Ba'al Chatzaf: The "question" is: Why is there something? I am not sure this is a real question and even if it is, there is no answer to it.

Can you think of any human being reflecting about existence who has not asked himself/herself this question at some time in their lives?

Ba'al Chatzaf: I suspect it is a pseudo question, i.e. a string of words that has the grammatical form of a question.

I think it is real question, even if we won't ever get an answer.

Question to Adonis: do you accept the theory of biological Evolution, or are you a Creationist?

I think that God created the universe and that He set in motion a series of events that were the method of creating the universe as we know it.. That what did happen was the process to it.. I won't speculate as to the exact process because I don't know enough about it..

So I am, perhaps a Creationist..

I think you have to be a Creationist if you believe what it says in Surah 2 about the creation of Adam. No way does Evolution fit in there.

[Robert Campbell]

Adonis,

Here are two statements from a translated hadith collection, the Sunan of Abu Dawud. They are accessible on this site:

http://www.usc.edu/s...t.html#038.4447

Book 38, Number 4447:

Narrated Abdullah ibn Abbas:

The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: If you find anyone doing as Lot's people did, kill the one who does it, and the one to whom it is done.

Book 38, Number 4448:

Narrated Abdullah ibn Abbas:

If a man who is not married is seized committing sodomy, he will be stoned to death.

Because the Qur'an includes a retelling of the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, it's pretty clear what "doing as Lot's people did" is supposed to mean.

What is your opinion of these? Do they establish moral imperatives binding on Muslims? Must any system of Islamic law conform to them?

Robert Campbell

[Robert Campbell]

Here are two more quotations from a different translated collection of hadith, the sahih of Bukhari.

These are available at

http://www.usc.edu/s...tml#007.072.773

Volume 7, Book 72, Number 773:

Narrated Ibn 'Abbas:

Allah's Apostle cursed those men who are in the similitude (assume the manners) of women and those women who are in the similitude (assume the manners) of men.

Volume 7, Book 72, Number 774:

Narrated Ibn 'Abbas:

The Prophet cursed effeminate men (those men who are in the similitude (assume the manners of) women) and those women who assume the manners of men, and he said, "Turn them out of your houses." The Prophet turned out such-and-such man, and 'Umar turned out such-and-such woman.

What are their implications for Muslims living today?

Robert Campbell

[Robert Campbell]

Adonis,

You may not have seen my two posts above, but I do think it is appropriate to ask for your thoughts on the four ahadith that I quoted.

Robert Campbell