Interesting Take on Islam and Libertarianism

[Selene]

Excellent:

That agenda I can work with.

Adam

[jeffrey smith]

Of course, underlying it all is the illusion of objective value, of objective morality. This "justifies" the slaughter of men, women and children.

The Objectivist Leonard Peikoff illustrates this mentality quite clearly.

AV: I would much prefer that wager than to be in your position. Either way, my risk is still significantly less than yours.

Why are you so full of fear, Adonis?

I must interpose a salute to Xray's dogged determination here. Only she would think of this tactic--trying to bash Objectivism by means of bashing Islam.

Jeffrey S.

[jeffrey smith]

"For that cause We decreed for the Children of Israel that whosoever killeth a human being for other than manslaughter or corruption in the earth, it shall be as if he had killed all mankind, and whoso saveth the life of one, it shall be as if he had saved the life of all mankind. Our messengers came unto them of old with clear proofs (of Allah's Sovereignty), but afterwards lo! many of them became prodigals in the earth." (Qur'an 5:32)

Well, at least we know that Allah studied the Mishnah, where the original of this statement occurs (Mishnah Sanhedrin, Chapter 4).

Jeffrey S.

[Selene]

Of course, underlying it all is the illusion of objective value, of objective morality. This "justifies" the slaughter of men, women and children.

The Objectivist Leonard Peikoff illustrates this mentality quite clearly.

AV: I would much prefer that wager than to be in your position. Either way, my risk is still significantly less than yours.

Why are you so full of fear, Adonis?

I must interpose a salute to Xray's dogged determination here. Only she would think of this tactic--trying to bash Objectivism by means of bashing Islam.

Jeffrey S.

Jeffrey:

To me, it is a strategically infantile and unsuccessful gambit. She has to lose. She is predictable. Easy to lead into a specific line of play. I would love to get her on a chess board or a public structured debate. They would have to stop it on cuts by the 12 move or the end of the first round.

Adam

[Libertarian Muslim]

Well, at least we know that Allah studied the Mishnah, where the original of this statement occurs (Mishnah Sanhedrin, Chapter 4).

Jeffrey S.

G-d doesn't study. The G-d of Moses is the G-d of Muhammad.

But yep, the reference you provided is exactly what G-d said:

"Therefore but a single person was created in the world, to teach that if any man has caused a single life to perish from Israel, he is deemed by Scripture as if he had caused a whole world to perish; and anyone who saves a single soul from Israel, he is deemed by Scripture as if he had saved a whole world."

[jeffrey smith]

More or less co-incidentally, this came into my e-mailbox today. I'm posting the link because it does touch on several of the issues raised at different times throughout this thread (and also on the epistemology thread--which is probably the better place to comment if you want to comment on that angle.

http://vbm-torah.org/archive/igrot/08igrot.htm

Jeffrey S.

[Libertarian Muslim]

More or less co-incidentally, this came into my e-mailbox today. I'm posting the link because it does touch on several of the issues raised at different times throughout this thread (and also on the epistemology thread--which is probably the better place to comment if you want to comment on that angle.

http://vbm-torah.org/archive/igrot/08igrot.htm

Jeffrey S.

Very interesting! Thanks Jeffrey, this article reminds me how similar Judaism is to Islam.

[Brant Gaede]

More or less co-incidentally, this came into my e-mailbox today. I'm posting the link because it does touch on several of the issues raised at different times throughout this thread (and also on the epistemology thread--which is probably the better place to comment if you want to comment on that angle.

http://vbm-torah.org...rot/08igrot.htm

Jeffrey S.

Very interesting! Thanks Jeffrey, this article reminds me how similar Judaism is to Islam.

This guy is just trying to soften us up so Islam can take us down. The only traction he's got is his brains, good manners, perseverance and the gullibility of others.

--Brant

there is no God and so and so is his prophet--yeah, right

Edited January 20, 2010 by Brant Gaede

[Libertarian Muslim]

This guy is just trying to soften us up so Islam can take us down. The only traction he's got is his brains, good manners, perseverance and the gullibility of others.

I don't think anyone here is so weak in their will that they would fall simply for charm Brant. I am stating my beliefs and that's it. Nothing more and nothing less.

And I don't quite understand why you'd quote my comment about Judaism and Islam being similar. Islam is very close to Judaism and a good Muslim will consider Jews like brothers and sisters to us.

I'd happily marry a Jewish woman if I were in love with her and she could practice her religion as much as she liked, in fact I'd die protecting that right.

Edited January 20, 2010 by Adonis Vlahos

[Brant Gaede]

Adonis, if the various sects of Islam came to dominate the world to the exclusion of all the other present-day major religions, these sects would be at each others' throats a la bloody mayhem. Praise God?

--Brant

God, an antidote to essential loneliness

God is an idea

God is within us, not without us--God is self-governance

God is sanctified patriarchy

God is the moral equality of man to man--not with woman--woman is waiting in the background: good luck gal

God really isn't but humanity seem to need this bullshit expression of its genius

Edited January 20, 2010 by Brant Gaede

[Libertarian Muslim]

Adonis, if the various sects of Islam came to dominate the world to the exclusion of all the other present-day major religions, these sects would be at each others' throats a la bloody mayhem. Praise God?

Brant, First of all, the 'sects' of Islam aren't even really sects because it is one group and the majority of Muslim scholars recognize each other group and therefore they are simply just schools of thought.

Islam is already the most widely practiced religion in the world and if what you were saying was true, then there most certainly would be violence in every country between these groups. There simply isn't.

I have lived in the Middle East and seen for myself in the places where Islam is the dominant religion. Syria was a perfect example. Christians and Muslims of all different schools of thought were living in peace with each other, like brothers and sisters.

In other countries where there is violence the perpetrators are religious extremists like the Taliban in Afghanistan and Pakistan or it's because of political reasons where certain groups want power.

[Selene]

Adonis, if the various sects of Islam came to dominate the world to the exclusion of all the other present-day major religions, these sects would be at each others' throats a la bloody mayhem. Praise God?

Brant, First of all, the 'sects' of Islam aren't even really sects because it is one group and the majority of Muslim scholars recognize each other group and therefore they are simply just schools of thought.

Islam is already the most widely practiced religion in the world and if what you were saying was true, then there most certainly would be violence in every country between these groups. There simply isn't.

I have lived in the Middle East and seen for myself in the places where Islam is the dominant religion. Syria was a perfect example. Christians and Muslims of all different schools of thought were living in peace with each other, like brothers and sisters.

In other countries where there is violence the perpetrators are religious extremists like the Taliban in Afghanistan and Pakistan or it's because of political reasons where certain groups want power.

Adonis:

Syria is a model for what precisely? I understand the internal getting along between folks part. Is Syria a model that you wish to use beyond that aspect?

Adam

[Alfonso Jones]

Adonis, if the various sects of Islam came to dominate the world to the exclusion of all the other present-day major religions, these sects would be at each others' throats a la bloody mayhem. Praise God?

Brant, First of all, the 'sects' of Islam aren't even really sects because it is one group and the majority of Muslim scholars recognize each other group and therefore they are simply just schools of thought.

Islam is already the most widely practiced religion in the world and if what you were saying was true, then there most certainly would be violence in every country between these groups. There simply isn't.

I have lived in the Middle East and seen for myself in the places where Islam is the dominant religion. Syria was a perfect example. Christians and Muslims of all different schools of thought were living in peace with each other, like brothers and sisters.

In other countries where there is violence the perpetrators are religious extremists like the Taliban in Afghanistan and Pakistan or it's because of political reasons where certain groups want power.

Syria is a perfect example? How would you describe the extent of freedom there? Of political freedom? Of religious freedom?

Bill P

[Libertarian Muslim]

Adonis:

Syria is a model for what precisely? I understand the internal getting along between folks part. Is Syria a model that you wish to use beyond that aspect?

Adam

Syria is a perfect example? How would you describe the extent of freedom there? Of political freedom? Of religious freedom?

Bill P

Syria is a perfect example of religious groups getting along with each other. It's not because of the government that it is like this at all. It's the people themselves. They are just naturally amazingly hospitable and kind people.

To answer your question about political and religious freedom. You have religious freedom providing it doesn't interfere with the regime, ie you can't have a religious political party.

Political freedom is very limited.

EDIT: Sorry I forgot to add. No, there's nothing about Syria's political system that I'd like to use. I had to leave Syria because I couldn't stand idly by and not say anything about the system they have. Even seeing pictures of the president everywhere and people not up in arms about how it can contribute to a dictatorship made me want to beat everyone I could see with a stick. They just have no idea because they've been in that system for so long that they don't know anything different.

Edited January 20, 2010 by Adonis Vlahos

[Alfonso Jones]

Adonis:

Syria is a model for what precisely? I understand the internal getting along between folks part. Is Syria a model that you wish to use beyond that aspect?

Adam

Syria is a perfect example? How would you describe the extent of freedom there? Of political freedom? Of religious freedom?

Bill P

Syria is a perfect example of religious groups getting along with each other. It's not because of the government that it is like this at all. It's the people themselves. They are just naturally amazingly hospitable and kind people.

To answer your question about political and religious freedom. You have religious freedom providing it doesn't interfere with the regime, ie you can't have a religious political party.

Political freedom is very limited.

EDIT: Sorry I forgot to add. No, there's nothing about Syria's political system that I'd like to use. I had to leave Syria because I couldn't stand idly by and not say anything about the system they have. Even seeing pictures of the president everywhere and people not up in arms about how it can contribute to a dictatorship made me want to beat everyone I could see with a stick. They just have no idea because they've been in that system for so long that they don't know anything different.

So, this is your best ("perfect") example:

A country with "very limited" political freedom.

A country ruled by a religious party, but banning all OTHER religious parties.

Looking at the article on Syria in WIkipedia:

Syria has a poor record on human rights. The Assad government has been criticized for arresting democracy and human rights activists, censoring websites, detaining bloggers, and imposing travel bans. Arbitrary detention, torture, and disappearances are widespread.[48] Although Syria's constitution guarantees gender equality, critics say that personal status laws and the penal code discriminate against women and girls. Moreover, it also grants leniency for so-called "honor" crimes.[48]

Recent arrests contrary to basic human rights include that of Muhannad Al-Hasani, a prominent lawyer and a courageous defender of Syrian prisoners of conscience. Prior to his arrest, Muhannad Al-Hassani had come under increasing pressure from the Syrian authorities because of his work as a lawyer and human rights defender, including his monitoring of Supreme State Security Court (SSSC), which is a special court that exists outside the ordinary criminal justice system to try those perceived as endangering the regime. Activists have called for personal intervention to secure the release of Muhannad Al-Hasani along with other political prisoners and prisoners of conscience in Syria.[49]

Kareem Arabji, a 31 year old business consultant, wrote numerous articles under a pseudonym criticizing corruption and dictatorship in Syria. On June 7, 2007 Arabji was arrested by Syrian security forces and held incommunicado at the Palestine Branch of Military Intelligence in Damascus. He was charged with, "broadcasting false or exaggerated news which would affect the morale of the country."[50]

Doesn't sound good - especially when it is your chosen example.

Got a better one?

Bill P

[Libertarian Muslim]

So, this is your best ("perfect") example:

A country with "very limited" political freedom.

A country ruled by a religious party, but banning all OTHER religious parties.

Looking at the article on Syria in WIkipedia:

Syria has a poor record on human rights. The Assad government has been criticized for arresting democracy and human rights activists, censoring websites, detaining bloggers, and imposing travel bans. Arbitrary detention, torture, and disappearances are widespread.[48] Although Syria's constitution guarantees gender equality, critics say that personal status laws and the penal code discriminate against women and girls. Moreover, it also grants leniency for so-called "honor" crimes.[48]

Recent arrests contrary to basic human rights include that of Muhannad Al-Hasani, a prominent lawyer and a courageous defender of Syrian prisoners of conscience. Prior to his arrest, Muhannad Al-Hassani had come under increasing pressure from the Syrian authorities because of his work as a lawyer and human rights defender, including his monitoring of Supreme State Security Court (SSSC), which is a special court that exists outside the ordinary criminal justice system to try those perceived as endangering the regime. Activists have called for personal intervention to secure the release of Muhannad Al-Hasani along with other political prisoners and prisoners of conscience in Syria.[49]

Kareem Arabji, a 31 year old business consultant, wrote numerous articles under a pseudonym criticizing corruption and dictatorship in Syria. On June 7, 2007 Arabji was arrested by Syrian security forces and held incommunicado at the Palestine Branch of Military Intelligence in Damascus. He was charged with, "broadcasting false or exaggerated news which would affect the morale of the country."[50]

Doesn't sound good - especially when it is your chosen example.

Got a better one?

Bill P

Bill, did you actually read the edited reply that you quoted where I stated that I wouldn't use anything from Syria's political system?

Also, Syria doesn't have religious parties of any sort. They are a strictly secular government and ALL religious parties are banned.

I was talking about Syria's religious harmony which is in no way related to the type of government or political system they have, Syrian's are just very harmonious people.

Edited January 20, 2010 by Adonis Vlahos

[Xray]

Apparently, being in education and being a German citizen, I am surprised that you did not know that the Nazi's, in 1938, outlawed home schooling under the German state edict that the children belong to the state.

Your point being? I don't recall any post of mine suggesting that children belong to the state. No use trying to drop others' mental trash into my backyard, Selene.

[Selene]: Are you fully aware of what is going on today in Germany regarding home schooling?

I'm not interested enough in the topic and don't know of a single person in my surroundings who ever contemplated homeshooling their children.

Selene: Finally, do you support the statement that the individual child is the property of the German state today, in terms of German law?

Show me a German law where it says that.

As for the Pascalian wager, didn't you know about it? I know countless people who stay in their church "just in case it may be true after all", although they mostly believe the doctrine to be nonsense.

As for the koran containing passages of peace - it also contains passaged of raw hatred. It's he same jumbled mess as in the bible.

Frankly, I don't believe there is anything which will actually guarantee that people will stop breaking laws.

So do you then believe that there should be no punishments for crimes? (I don't believe that you believe this)

Indeed I don't believe this. So let's ponder the matter.

Where I live, stoning a person to death for violating an alleged god's law is first degree-murder . So what punishement do you think is apt for the stoners?

Chopping off thieves' hands is also a severe crime here. What do you suggest as apt punishment should a bunch of muslim fundamentalists decide to apply your "God's law" in a German backyard?

AV: Again, it's useless trying to debate this with you and I have no intention of doing so.

I see we now have reached stage 3 which I predicted: the believer says "it is no use debating this with you" and wants to get out of the discussion. They always want to end it when things get too close to the truth.

AV: I believe in God. You don't. Since I can neither prove the existence of God other than bringing the testimony of people who were alive during the times of the Prophets, peace be upon them and who saw their miracles and you can't disprove it because there is no way to do so I suppose we'll just have to wait until the next life and see whether I was right or not.

There is a principle that says "who makes the claim has to offer the proof". You made the claim "god exists". I said show me the evidence. You have none.

Brant Gaede This guy is just trying to soften us up so Islam can take us down. The only traction he's got is his brains, good manners, perseverance and the gullibility of others.

You seem to be one of the few here who doesn't let himself be misguided.

I would cut Adonis some slack though - for he is still very young and imo has not thought it all through enough.

Edited January 20, 2010 by Xray

[Selene]

Apparently, being in education and being a German citizen, I am surprised that you did not know that the Nazi's, in 1938, outlawed home schooling under the German state edict that the children belong to the state.

Your point being? I don't recall any post of mine suggesting that children belong to the state. No use trying to drop others' mental trash into my backyard, Selene.

[Selene]: Are you fully aware of what is going on today in Germany regarding home schooling?

I'm not interested enough in the topic and don't know of a single person in my surroundings who ever contemplated homeshooling their children.

Selene: Finally, do you support the statement that the individual child is the property of the German state today, in terms of German law?

Show me a German law where it says that.

Ms. Xray:

No problem, as the gambit door swings shut:

This occurred in 2006. It was apparently covered in your media. Maybe a schoolteacher should warn the children in their charge that the German police would arrest their parents, their mommy if the children did not come to school. Boy would that help attendance!

http://www.brusselsj...l.com/node/1330

But there's more:

"Home-schooling has been illegal in Germany since Adolf Hitler outlawed it in 1938 and ordered all children to be sent to state schools. The home-schooling community in Germany is tiny. As Hitler knew, Germans tend to obey orders unquestioningly. Only some 500 children are being home-schooled in a country of 80 million. Home-schooling families are prosecuted without mercy. Last March, a judge in Hamburg sentenced a home-schooling father of six to a week in prison and a fine of $2,000. Last September, a Paderborn mother of 12 was locked up in jail for two weeks. The family belongs to a group of seven ethnic German families who immigrated to Paderborn from the former Soviet Union. The Soviets persecuted them because they were Baptists. An initiative of the Paderborn Baptists to establish their own private school was rejected by the German authorities. A court ruled that the Baptists showed "a stubborn contempt both for the state's educational duty as well as the right of their children to develop their personalities by attending school.'"

http://www.washingto...7-084730-5162r/

Now, you are a German citizen. You are a paid government teacher. You lecture about being in the clutches of "objective values" and I can understand why you have to have that position.

You are a "good" German. You knew nothing about this law. Get your head out of the sand you preachy Ostrich. You preach down to Adonis about woman's rights while you blithely go to work in an educational system that has as it's government authority that the children belong to the state. My you folks have changed so much since the 30's when a child was the property of the state. The change is now you are not even honest enough with the truth to know that all German children still belong, in law, to the State.

As for the Pascalian wager, didn't you know about it? I know countless people who stay in their church "just in case it may be true after all", although they mostly believe the doctrine to be nonsense.

"Thank you 9th:

I was wracking my brain for the name of the wager example." This was quite clear, now look at your response.

There is basically no excuse for your convenient ignorance. I knew about the wager concept, I was wracking my brain for the author Pascal. You are either too illiterate to read, too impatient to read a person correctly, or too emotionally sick to care to understand even a simple statement by someone who "has your number", FYI means in American that I understand what you really are and where you are really coming from. It is similar to the way you continue to say "the boot is on the other foot", I corrected it for you once and I am correcting you again, the American phrase is "the shoe is on the other foot."

I would cut Adonis some slack though - for he is still very young and imo has not thought it all through enough.

He is a hell of a lot more grounded than yourself, dear. Mirror, mirror, on the wall, who is the most subjective of them all!

Adam

Edited January 20, 2010 by Selene

[Dragonfly]

It is similar to the way you continue to say "the boot is on the other foot", I corrected it for you once and I am correcting you again, the American phrase is "the shoe is on the other foot."

Collins English Dictionary: "The boot is on the other foot or leg. the situation is or has now reversed."

The New Shorter Oxford English Dictionary: "the boot is on the other foot or leg - the position is reversed, the advantage etc. is the other way round."

The Online Free Dictionary: "The boot is on the other foot or leg - the situation is or has now reversed"

[Selene]

It is similar to the way you continue to say "the boot is on the other foot", I corrected it for you once and I am correcting you again, the American phrase is "the shoe is on the other foot."

Collins English Dictionary: "The boot is on the other foot or leg. the situation is or has now reversed."

The New Shorter Oxford English Dictionary: "the boot is on the other foot or leg - the position is reversed, the advantage etc. is the other way round."

The Online Free Dictionary: "The boot is on the other foot or leg - the situation is or has now reversed"

DF:

Never heard it used that way as an American cliche. Thanks for the correction. I will remove the foot in the boot from my mouth now!

Adam

[Libertarian Muslim]

Collins English Dictionary: "The boot is on the other foot or leg. the situation is or has now reversed."

The New Shorter Oxford English Dictionary: "the boot is on the other foot or leg - the position is reversed, the advantage etc. is the other way round."

The Online Free Dictionary: "The boot is on the other foot or leg - the situation is or has now reversed"

Both are correct, although it appears that with time, the phrase changed.

shoe is on the other foot, the idiom

The circumstances have reversed, the participants have changed places, as in I was one of his research assistants, subject to his orders, but now that I'm his department head the shoe is on the other foot. This metaphoric term first appeared in the mid-1800s as the boot is on the other leg. Literally wearing the right shoe on the left foot would be quite uncomfortable, and this notion is implied in this idiom, which suggests that changing places is not equally beneficial to both parties.

The American Heritage® Dictionary of Idioms by Christine Ammer. Copyright © 2003, 1997 by The Christine Ammer 1992 Trust. Published by Houghton Mifflin Harcourt Publishing Company. All rights reserved.

[Libertarian Muslim]

As for the Pascalian wager, didn't you know about it? I know countless people who stay in their church "just in case it may be true after all", although they mostly believe the doctrine to be nonsense.

I could have sworn it was Al-Ghazali's teacher, Al-Juwayni that I was thinking of when I used it..

As for the koran containing passages of peace - it also contains passaged of raw hatred. It's he same jumbled mess as in the bible.

It doesn't contain hate at all, except for hating the oppression of another living being.. Unless of course you love oppression.. Hmmmm? Then I could understand why you think it contains hate..

Where I live, stoning a person to death for violating an alleged god's law is first degree-murder . So what punishement do you think is apt for the stoners?

Chopping off thieves' hands is also a severe crime here. What do you suggest as apt punishment should a bunch of muslim fundamentalists decide to apply your "God's law" in a German backyard?

They should be held accountable by being tried and punished to the full extent of the law of the Land.. In Islam we're forbidden from doing things outside of the law like that.. Therefore, if you're in a country with different laws then you must respect and adhere to those laws.

I see we now have reached stage 3 which I predicted: the believer says "it is no use debating this with you" and wants to get out of the discussion. They always want to end it when things get too close to the truth.

Hilarious.. Actually I never engaged in debate with you over this and have maintained since the beginning that I am not here to debate the issue of God's existence, but of course you appear to be some type of Atheist Fanatic who wishes to impose your beliefs on other people and can't respect their right to their own opinions.. Maybe your experience is showing you that it's not that the person doesn't want to discuss things with you out of 'getting to close to the truth' but rather it would be because your conduct is, in general repulsive and somewhat Salafi like in the way you wish to impose your beliefs on others.. Which in the end really shouldn't surprise me when you come from a country that has a history of imposing things on other people now shouldn't it?

There is a principle that says "who makes the claim has to offer the proof". You made the claim "god exists". I said show me the evidence. You have none.

The evidence was there for everyone to see when the Prophets were here with us and people wrote down their experiences and other people corroborated their stories, having seen the same things, prophet after prophet and religion after religion like Judaism, Christianity and Islam confirm each others view on the events of these miracles happening by people sent by God.. But now that there are no miracles occurring now you say that there is no evidence and thus it can't be proven.. How about you go over all of those stories and disprove each miracle that was recorded and corroborated by millions of people.. Disprove those because those events occurred, you just have to prove that no more powerful being than man made them happen and that there is somehow another explanation for them..

You seem to be one of the few here who doesn't let himself be misguided.

I would cut Adonis some slack though - for he is still very young and imo has not thought it all through enough.

How rude and insulting.. Don't try and say that my age is a factor here and that somehow means that I haven't had the time to think through my beliefs enough. Whilst I'm not the type to speak of the good things about myself, At the same time I can't allow such an insult to go unchecked. I am neither gullible nor stupid, my vast experiences in life and my thirst for knowledge and adeptness learning from what I see and hear I have attained more wisdom than most people in their 40's and 50's could ever hope to gain and I'm only 24 years old.. That's WHY I don't waste my time with debating people like you, because your conduct and the content of what you say, in addition to your lack of understanding about the subject which you speak about ie Islam and the Qur'an, the Will of God etc make you seem intellectually inept to grasp the concepts and context that you discuss..

I might also remind you that I was invited here to this forum to because some people wanted to know more about my opinions after reading them on the SOLOP website.. Sure it doesn't mean that they believed in God or anything like that and neither was it my intention in discussing anything about Islam to convert people, it was only to clarify the Islamic opinion on certain topics, but they considered the content of my views to warrant further discussion and thus invited me..

Surely that counts for something.. And if your ideas are so vastly superior to mine and so intriguing then surely, you too must have been invited to this site to give your insights too..

Right?

Edited January 21, 2010 by Adonis Vlahos

[9thdoctor]

Maybe your experience is showing you that it's not that the person doesn't want to discuss things with you out of 'getting to close to the truth' but rather it would be because your conduct is, in general repulsive and somewhat Salafi like

In an earlier post I commented that I liked Xray’s posts on this thread, I was pointing it out because it was such an exception. Lately she’s reverted to her typical methods, typically I just ignore her, I think most of us do. It’s like grafitti, what can you do about it? I looked up Salafi, imposing beliefs didn’t come across as their defining characteristic, but I take it that’s how you’ve experienced them.

But now that there are no miracles occurring now you say that there is no evidence and thus it can't be proven.. How about you go over all of those stories and disprove each miracle that was recorded and corroborated by millions of people.. Disprove those because those events occurred, you just have to prove that no more powerful being than man made them happen and that there is somehow another explanation for them..

Hold the phone, no miracles? How about the Miracle of San Gennaro? Or Fatima? Jesus, there’s plenty of recent and even ongoing ones.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Gennaro

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miracle_of_the_Sun

Are there no equivalent recent miracles in the Islamic world?

Needless to say I think it’s all hokum, but these go a long way towards debunking the Bible’s miracle stories.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pious_fraud

Pope John Paul II created more saints than all his predecessors of the past several centuries put together, and he had a special affinity with the Virgin Mary. His polytheistic hankerings were dramatically demonstrated in 1981 when he suffered an assassination attempt in Rome, and attributed his survival to intervention by Our Lady of Fatima: 'A maternal hand guided the bullet.' One cannot help wondering why she didn't guide it to miss him altogether. Others might think the team of surgeons who operated on him for six hours deserved at least a share of the credit; but perhaps their hands, too, were maternally guided. The relevant point is that it wasn't just Our Lady who, in the Pope's opinion, guided the bullet, but specifically Our Lady of

Fatima

. Presumably Our Lady of Lourdes, Our Lady of Guadalupe, Our Lady of Medjugorje, Our Lady of Akita, Our Lady of Zeitoun, Our Lady of Garabandal and Our Lady of Knock were busy on other errands at the time.

Richard Dawkins, The God Delusion

[Brant Gaede]

Adonis, there is religious logic and there is (simple) logic logic. The two are always in essential conflict. It's one or the other. Simple logic necessarily eschews trying to prove a negative for it's illogical. Simple logic does not reference religion or faith but reality and reason. There are Christians who use religious logic just like you do. There are also Christians who use both religious and simple logic but don't mix them up because the former vitiates the latter. That's why there are devoutly Christian scientists who nevertheless are competent users of the scientific method. I don't see this in Islam, not today. Your feet are firmly and only in Islam regardless of your brains, knowledge and experience. While I am an atheist I occasionally get a religious impulse when I think of those I have loved who have died. Why? I naturally want to see them all again and thru "Gates of Splendor." I know it's a crutch and I do not indulge myself with this sort of thing, but I know it's very Christian, my cultural background. As I write these words my 95 yo mother who has dementia is asking me, "Where's Joan?" Joan was her first born and most beloved child of four and she has forgotten she died five years ago. So I had to remind her and she is condemned to re-experience some of that pain of mourning, but at least she has also remembered she had mourned too back then so it's not so bad, but it makes me think of these remembered things. Until Islam can say render unto God what is God's and unto Caesar what is Caesar's it cannot progress, only fight progress. Right now Muslims can no more send a man to the moon than the Crusaders.

--Brant

[Xray]

Of course, underlying it all is the illusion of objective value, of objective morality. This "justifies" the slaughter of men, women and children.

The Objectivist Leonard Peikoff illustrates this mentality quite clearly.

AV: I would much prefer that wager than to be in your position. Either way, my risk is still significantly less than yours.

Why are you so full of fear, Adonis?

I must interpose a salute to Xray's dogged determination here. Only she would think of this tactic--trying to bash Objectivism by means of bashing Islam.

Jeffrey S.

The illusion of objective morality applies to all ideologies, whether they believe in the supernatural or not. It's that simple.

DF:

Selene, on 20 January 2010 - 10:06 PM, said:

It is similar to the way you continue to say "the boot is on the other foot", I corrected it for you once and I am correcting you again, the American phrase is "the shoe is on the other foot."

Collins English Dictionary: "The boot is on the other foot or leg. the situation is or has now reversed."

The New Shorter Oxford English Dictionary: "the boot is on the other foot or leg - the position is reversed, the advantage etc. is the other way round."

The Online Free Dictionary: "The boot is on the other foot or leg - the situation is or has now reversed"

Looks like another failed attempt by Selene to create a sideshow.

You are a "good" German. You knew nothing about this law. Get your head out of the sand you preachy Ostrich. You preach down to Adonis about woman's rights while you blithely go to work in an educational system that has as it's government authority that the children belong to the state. My you folks have changed so much since the 30's when a child was the property of the state. The change is now you are not even honest enough with the truth to know that all German children still belong, in law, to the State.

What is a "good" German if I may ask? And what is the opposite - a "bad" German?

Exchanging posts with you alwas makes me think I'm a handling a pressure cooker already hissing. Cool it a bit.

A child is no "property" of the state. And people can send their children to private schools as well here. I myself attended for seven years a private school run by Catholic nuns.

Attending school is compulsory, so if parents just don't send their children to school (for whatever reason) they will get in trouble with the law.

I personally have nothing against homeschooling. Laws can change. For example, I grew up at time when practising homosexuality among males was considered a criminal offense and now we have foreign minister who is a homosexual. So much for "objective morality". It doesn't exist.

I went to the link you gave and it says in a blog entry:

"I home school five. They are a gift from God and we as parents must protect them from ungodly attacks until they are able to do so on their own". (end quote)

Protecting them from "ungodly attacks" by indoctrinating them with the 'right' belief, sure. Same old same old.

Edited January 21, 2010 by Xray