Romantic Novels

[Mike Renzulli]

My fiancee recently suggested that I read romantic novels. She felt that I was lacking in the romance department and felt that Romance novels might be a good way for me to get a feel as to how to become more romantic in my approach to our relationship.

So, I thought I would tap the ladies on these board if they know of any romance novels worth checking out. My fiancee doesn't read too many of them since yours truly has gotten her to read Atlas Shrugged and The Fountainhead along with all of the F. Paul Wilson's books including his Repairman Jack novels. She has also read Noble Vision and is in the midst of reading some of Steve Flynn's novels too.

Monica and I both loved Atlas Shrugged and, taking her advice to heart, am in the midst of reading Andrea York's Crosspoints and will soon be ordering The Invisible Heart.

However, since Objectivist/freedom-oriented romance novels might be hard to come by, I was wondering if there are any romance novels, while not strictly Objectivist or libertarian, that have a great sense of life or are along Objectivist/libertarian lines. Where the characters are strong have high levels of integrity, are self reliant and are entrepreneurs or in business.

Any suggestions would be helpful. I find that fiction can be very helpful, if not better, than personal growth or self-help reading and can be great to lift one's spirits.

I would like to purchase and consume novels that reflect my values and philosophy.

PERSONAL NOTE TO MICHAEL AND KAT - I like the new format!

Edited August 17, 2009 by Mike Renzulli

[Chris Grieb]

Have you looked at the works of Kay Nolte Smith and Ericka Holzer? Both of these authors were associated with Ayn Rand for many years. Miss Smith wrote crime novels and one more historical romance. She also did a novel telling the story of a family in the theater in France from Victor Hugo to Rostand.

Miss Holzer has only written two novels one a political thriller set in Berlin before the Wall fell, the other a crime novel. I think you can find all of these at larger libraries.

[Philip Coates]

> My fiancee recently suggested that I read romantic novels. She felt that I was lacking in the romance department and felt that Romance novels might be a good way for me to get a feel as to how to become more romantic in my approach to our relationship. [Mike R]

It sounds like an issue of being in touch with one's emotions and the 'softer side' and/or sensitivity. A common problem among Oists is repression, always wanting to be mechanical, talk about theory rather than feelings for example - my past girlfriends helped me grow out of it a lot.

> Objectivist/freedom-oriented romance novels

What does "freedom-oriented" have to do with what you are looking for to help in an area of sensitivity or with an intimate, personal relationship? Were you planning to stand up in the bed and shout "Go, Thomas Jefferson! Yay, Tea Parties"?

A romance novel (about love, feelings, etc.) is not the same thing as a romantic novel (about values of any kind such as catching a killer or surviving a dictatorship). You want the former. I am not familiar with novels written by Objectivists, but there is no reason going in to assume that they are better than the great novelists of the past in writing about the things your fiance wants you to be more in touch with. Three of the best books ever written which capture something about personal feelings, relationships, what it means to be romantic are (read them in this order, the last two are a bit more complex): #1 - "Pride and Prejudice" by Jane Austen; #2 - "Sonnets From the Portuguese" by Elizabeth Barrett Browning; and #3 - "Jane Eyre" by Charlotte Bronte. I can't imagine another three books which would be better than these. Just because someone is an Objectivist doesn't mean they are capable of producing what you are looking for in this context. By any standard, these are three of the greatest books every written. They speak across generations for a -reason-.

Why limit yourself to books or to novels? The movie versions of any of the Jane Austen books are excellent would fit what you seem to be looking for as well. There's also poetry (SFP is a book of poems which tells a story). Try "She Walks in Beauty" and "How Do I Love Thee?" for starters. Art also puts one in touch with the right kind of attitudes and emotions. For emotionality and for benevolence, I like many of the paintings of Renoir, Monet, Pisarro, Childe Hassam, Mary Cassatt, and John Singer Sargent. They are loosely classified as Impressionists, but often the images are not fuzzy or blurry (that's more the Post-Impressionists starting with Manet and going downhill) but razor sharp.

--Phil, sometime literature teacher, poetry reader, and art lover ...(I could post a bit more explanation about the three books I mentioned.)

[ginny]

Mike, this forum doesn't have an overabundance of women, so I feel the need to jump in.

First of all, good for you for taking your fiance's request seriously. That alone puts you ahead of the game.

As for books, the books Chris mentioned are good, but I'm not sure how well they'll serve you in your day-to-day romantic endeavors. So let me give you a few hints about what makes women feel romantic.

First and foremost: Shut up and listen. Men are known for talking, trying to solve problems and NOT BEING QUIET AND LISTENING!! You don't have to agree. Just shut up. And listen. It'll work wonders.

Now, a small red flag went up in my mind when I read your comment about values. Mike, may I ever so gently suggest you put your philosophic opinions aside for a second. Relax. They'll still be there later. Okay. Done. Now, let's assume for this discussion you have one value and one value alone. Your fiance. You treasure her and want to see her happy. Here's what you can do:

1. Don't expect to agree on everything. It's not necessary. Respect her opinion if it's different from yours. Don't lecture her. Nothing cools an ardor than a lecture. If in doubt, SHUT UP.

2. Does she like things that you don't? I once dated a guy who complained that his ex liked "little values" such as shopping. Shopping is not the point here. Neither is a philosophic discussion about values. Your fiance is the point. If going shopping (or whatever) with you makes her happy, isn't that a value to you? I'm sure she'll sit at your side during the next ball game and watch, even if she's not that interested. Because being with you is a value to her.

3. Rand wrote that sex is selfish, and god knows, a lot of objectivist gentlemen have run with that one. Is it really selfish to bring pleasure to your fiance? Is it selfish to want to see her enjoy herself? Think about it.

4. There's a saying among women, "sex begins in the kitchen." For a lot of men, sex begins (and sadly, ends) with a quick ten-minute bang on the bed. Not for women. Go back to the kitchen. If you're up, bring her a cup of coffee without being asked. Did you remember, without being reminded for the tenth time, that she likes 2% milk instead of cream? Trust me, it's positively orgasmic. Clear the dishes without being asked. See, she's getting hot already. Moving on to the living room, let her watch her show, without a negative comment from you. Like I said, just SHUT UP. She'll love you for it.

BTW, before you complain that isn't the philosophic answer you hoped for, let me point something out. Look around this forum. DO you see many women? No, you don't. There's X-Ray, but she from another planet. That fact is that most women aren't sent into a romantic frenzy at a discussion on "man as the standard" or "subjective v. objective," etc. Really, they're not.

I hope this helps, Mike.

Ginny

Edited August 17, 2009 by ginny

[Newberry]

I didn't know remembering the name of the author would come in handy.

Mike congratulations.

I was visiting someone, somewhere and picked up a contemporary book to read by a male author - a quick read. The plot was that a man forgot his anniversary, his wife's reaction was of dull acceptance, he knew he made a life changing mistake - he then spent the next year planning the next anniversary. The day itself involved a kind of treasure hunt with notes, which led his wife through a series of pleasant and pampered surprises, ending with a private catered dinner at home, and bed.

The man put in a lot of love and effort to make a perfect day - I was curious enough to finish the book, and I was surprised that I had a good feeling for the couple and especially for how the man handled the catalyst of indifference that started the book.

-I think most guys are indifferent to being recipients of this kind of attention - a simple "wow" works for me.

Edited August 17, 2009 by Newberry

[Judith]

Hi, Mike --

Let me add some comments to Ginny's.

The most romantic, sexiest thing you can do for a woman is to give her your full, undivided attention.

Do you look at her when she talks?

Do you listen patiently without interrupting?

If the phone or doorbell rings during an important conversation, can you ignore it?

Do you give her your full attention when she talks, without doing something else at the same time? She can tell if you're thinking about baseball when she's talking to you about feelings.

Do you do this, not occasionally, but ALL THE TIME? For most men, this sounds like an impossible demand, but what does "I love you" imply if not "I am truly interested in what you have to say"?

A close second to attention is respect.

Do you take her seriously?

Do you ever say anything disparaging about her thoughts, feelings, suggestions, proposals? Including indirectly, such as by proposing something else, changing the subject, etc.? This isn't to say you aren't supposed to have your own ideas and express them, but there's an attitude that a lot of men convey toward women without realizing it that what the woman says, does, feels isn't important, valid, worthy of time or thought. Think hard about it before you decide, "This isn't me."

Judith

[Mike Renzulli]

Ginny et all,

Our relationship is fine and, BTW, I do listen to her. All the time. Its not that its anything serious its that she wants me to be better at romance than I am now. I give her gifts all the time (like flowers) and, with her birthday coming up, will make sure she is treated well.

I help around the house too. I cleaned almost the entire house yesterday (dusted and vacuumed) and the kitchen on Friday. When I got into my relationship with Monica I knew that part of our agreement was that I would have to work around the house when I moved in with her.

I don't just do it out of obligation but also because I love her. She loves me too.

However, I am always looking for improvement in what I do.

I will look up the books and movies everyone on this board suggested and appreciate the feedback....I think. While Phillip is correct that actual love is not the same as a Romance novel, like I said in my original post:

I find that fiction can be very helpful, if not better, than personal growth or self-help reading and can be great to lift one's spirits.

That's it.

I did not want a lecture on how to have a love life and am kind of put off by one of the posts since the overall tone is in the negative. I get the impression that many of you assumed that there was something wrong with my relationship or that my relationship is on the rocks. It isn't.

Do yourselves a favor, when someone puts a post like mine on this board do not assume there is something wrong. Ask first or wait for the author to open up more and then offer advice.

I was also curious if anyone had any idea if any of the Harlequin, Bound Hearts or Berkeley Sensation novels are any good? I think I read somewhere that Nora Roberts was very good and she was close to Ayn Rand's idea of romantic realism if not has a very good sense of life.

Mike, this forum doesn't have an overabundance of women, so I feel the need to jump in.

First of all, good for you for taking your fiance's request seriously. That alone puts you ahead of the game.

As for books, the books Chris mentioned are good, but I'm not sure how well they'll serve you in your day-to-day romantic endeavors. So let me give you a few hints about what makes women feel romantic.

First and foremost: Shut up and listen. Men are known for talking, trying to solve problems and NOT BEING QUIET AND LISTENING!! You don't have to agree. Just shut up. And listen. It'll work wonders.

Now, a small red flag went up in my mind when I read your comment about values. Mike, may I ever so gently suggest you put your philosophic opinions aside for a second. Relax. They'll still be there later. Okay. Done. Now, let's assume for this discussion you have one value and one value alone. Your fiance. You treasure her and want to see her happy. Here's what you can do:

1. Don't expect to agree on everything. It's not necessary. Respect her opinion if it's different from yours. Don't lecture her. Nothing cools an ardor than a lecture. If in doubt, SHUT UP.

2. Does she like things that you don't? I once dated a guy who complained that his ex liked "little values" such as shopping. Shopping is not the point here. Neither is a philosophic discussion about values. Your fiance is the point. If going shopping (or whatever) with you makes her happy, isn't that a value to you? I'm sure she'll sit at your side during the next ball game and watch, even if she's not that interested. Because being with you is a value to her.

3. Rand wrote that sex is selfish, and god knows, a lot of objectivist gentlemen have run with that one. Is it really selfish to bring pleasure to your fiance? Is it selfish to want to see her enjoy herself? Think about it.

4. There's a saying among women, "sex begins in the kitchen." For a lot of men, sex begins (and sadly, ends) with a quick ten-minute bang on the bed. Not for women. Go back to the kitchen. If you're up, bring her a cup of coffee without being asked. Did you remember, without being reminded for the tenth time, that she likes 2% milk instead of cream? Trust me, it's positively orgasmic. Clear the dishes without being asked. See, she's getting hot already. Moving on to the living room, let her watch her show, without a negative comment from you. Like I said, just SHUT UP. She'll love you for it.

BTW, before you complain that isn't the philosophic answer you hoped for, let me point something out. Look around this forum. DO you see many women? No, you don't. There's X-Ray, but she from another planet. That fact is that most women aren't sent into a romantic frenzy at a discussion on "man as the standard" or "subjective v. objective," etc. Really, they're not.

I hope this helps, Mike.

Ginny

Edited August 18, 2009 by Mike Renzulli

[Mike Renzulli]

Judith,

Thank you for your concern. However, I would ask that, like Ginny, you not assume or ask questions like this since it implies there is something wrong in my relationship with Monica. I asked about Romance novels and would like to keep it at that.

I will say this much, if you or Ginny were in a relationship with me you both would want to have me cloned or have our relationship put on a reality show so your other girlfriends would know what a good man is (not to say you do not already). But I am a damned good man and lover and I have to thank Ayn Rand for giving me a great framework to base my relationships on.

Especially my love life.

Now, if you know of any good romance novels or movies I am all ears. BTW, I have already seen Slumdog Millionaire, The Proposal, The Ugly Truth and Julie and Julia that have come out this year with Monica. We have also seen Chocolat and Dangerous Beauty too.

Hi, Mike --

Let me add some comments to Ginny's.

The most romantic, sexiest thing you can do for a woman is to give her your full, undivided attention.

Do you look at her when she talks?

Do you listen patiently without interrupting?

If the phone or doorbell rings during an important conversation, can you ignore it?

Do you give her your full attention when she talks, without doing something else at the same time? She can tell if you're thinking about baseball when she's talking to you about feelings.

Do you do this, not occasionally, but ALL THE TIME? For most men, this sounds like an impossible demand, but what does "I love you" imply if not "I am truly interested in what you have to say"?

A close second to attention is respect.

Do you take her seriously?

Do you ever say anything disparaging about her thoughts, feelings, suggestions, proposals? Including indirectly, such as by proposing something else, changing the subject, etc.? This isn't to say you aren't supposed to have your own ideas and express them, but there's an attitude that a lot of men convey toward women without realizing it that what the woman says, does, feels isn't important, valid, worthy of time or thought. Think hard about it before you decide, "This isn't me."

Judith

[Judith]

I was also curious if anyone had any idea if any of the Harlequin, Bound Hearts or Berkeley Sensation novels are any good? I think I read somewhere that Nora Roberts was very good and she was close to Ayn Rand's idea of romantic realism if not has a very good sense of life.

Take a look at the Harlequin website. There are different lines with different emphases. I can't stand most romance novels, but I've enjoyed a few. Some are plot-driven, some are relationship-driven (which I can't stand), some are more explicit than others, some are historical, some are suspense-related, and there are even some supernatural lines coming out.

Doranna Durgin's books are very, very good. She's written some kick-butt spy-type romance books and has a couple of shape-changer supernatural books out recently. I wouldn't let the supernatural part put you off; it's just part of a fantasy fiction world-building exercise like any other science fiction/fantasy novel (at which she excels). Unlike some romance novels, which drown you in "heaving bosoms" and "taut, arrogant thighs", her books put the relationships in the context of a tight, suspenseful plot while yet showing a hero that any woman would want.

Judith

[Judith]

Judith,

Thank you for your concern. However, I would ask that, like Ginny, you not assume or ask questions like this since it implies there is something wrong in my relationship with Monica. I asked about Romance novels and would like to keep it at that.

Mike --

I didn't mean to imply any such thing. I'm sorry it seemed that way to you.

I was trying to distill some of the essential components of "romance" that many women find in romance novels and can't always put into words. I was also writing, not only for you, but for the benefit of any other guys who cared to hear hints from women about what works with them.

It's not uncommon to see women swooning over some film actor -- say Kevin Costner. Their men say, "Oh, hell -- I can never compete with that. I'll never look like that." But if one looks at Costner, he's not really very good-looking. It's what he DOES with what he has on film -- the way he looks at a woman, etc. -- that women find so hot.

Judith

[ginny]

My fault for jumping to conclusions, Mike. When I read that your girlfriend felt you were lacking in the romance department, I couldn't tell that you would be the sort who'd teach my girlfriends what a good man is all about. Mainly, I guess, because my girlfriends aren't all that impressed with someone lacking in the romance department. Must be their fault. And mine. Our bad.

Ginny

Edited August 18, 2009 by ginny

[Barbara Branden]

Judith: "Arrogant thighs?" You made it up. Say you made it up. Please.

Barbara

[Brant Gaede]

Judith: "Arrogant thighs?" You made it up. Say you made it up. Please.

Barbara

What a hoot!

--Brant

[Judith]

Judith: "Arrogant thighs?" You made it up. Say you made it up. Please.

I'm sorry to say that "taut, arrogant thighs" is an exact quote from a romance novel I read many, many years ago. The book is long forgotten, but the phrase was unforgettable. A good example of why I mostly detest the genre.

Judith

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

If you want very light-hearted romantic novels (in the Objectivist sense of romantic), try any of the McNally books by Lawrence Sanders (for instance McNally's Gamble—and from what I just saw if you go to the link, these books are incredibly cheap on Amazon). It's been a long time since I have read a novel (I am even late on finishing Nicholas Dykes's wonderful book). I remember finding them delightful. When I get novel reading time again, I intend to reread a few.

On looking them up just now, I saw that the publisher continued the McNally franchise under Vincent Lardo after the death of Lawrence Sanders. I remember reading a McNally book by him and I do not recall any disappointment.

Even more fun for me was The Tenth Commandment by Sanders with the can-do nothing-gets-me-down 5'3" Joshua Bigg. This has been brushed aside by the world, but it is a real gem.

I believe with this line of fiction, Lawrence Sanders not only achieved the kind of thing Rand attempted with her short story, "Good Copy," he went further. He took the O. Henry spirit to the novel level.

His serious detective stuff is good, too, although his villains are usually pretty twisted.

Michael

[Xray]

BTW, before you complain that isn't the philosophic answer you hoped for, let me point something out. Look around this forum. DO you see many women? No, you don't. There's X-Ray, but she from another planet. That fact is that most women aren't sent into a romantic frenzy at a discussion on "man as the standard" or "subjective v. objective," etc. Really, they're not.

Ginny

LOL!I just ran across this post of yours, Ginny. "From another planet", now really.

Edited September 4, 2009 by Xray

[Xray]

My fiancee recently suggested that I read romantic novels. She felt that I was lacking in the romance department and felt that Romance novels might be a good way for me to get a feel as to how to become more romantic in my approach to our relationship.

So, I thought I would tap the ladies on these board if they know of any romance novels worth checking out. My fiancee doesn't read too many of them since yours truly has gotten her to read Atlas Shrugged and The Fountainhead along with all of the F. Paul Wilson's books including his Repairman Jack novels. She has also read Noble Vision and is in the midst of reading some of Steve Flynn's novels too.

Monica and I both loved Atlas Shrugged and, taking her advice to heart, am in the midst of reading Andrea York's Crosspoints and will soon be ordering The Invisible Heart.

However, since Objectivist/freedom-oriented romance novels might be hard to come by, I was wondering if there are any romance novels, while not strictly Objectivist or libertarian, that have a great sense of life or are along Objectivist/libertarian lines. Where the characters are strong have high levels of integrity, are self reliant and are entrepreneurs or in business.

Any suggestions would be helpful. I find that fiction can be very helpful, if not better, than personal growth or self-help reading and can be great to lift one's spirits.

I would like to purchase and consume novels that reflect my values and philosophy.

My fiancee recently suggested that I read romantic novels. She felt that I was lacking in the romance department and felt that Romance novels might be a good way for me to get a feel as to how to become more romantic in my approach to our relationship.

Mike,

Did your fiancee elaborate on what her idea of "romantic" is? For this is a pretty global term (a fudge word, so to speak), where people can project a lot into.

However, since Objectivist/freedom-oriented romance novels might be hard to come by, I was wondering if there are any romance novels, while not strictly Objectivist or libertarian, that have a great sense of life or are along Objectivist/libertarian lines. Where the characters are strong have high levels of integrity, are self reliant and are entrepreneurs or in business.

Any suggestions would be helpful. I find that fiction can be very helpful, if not better, than personal growth or self-help reading and can be great to lift one's spirits.

I would like to purchase and consume novels that reflect my values and philosophy.

Does your fiancee share the same value sysem as you here, i. e. would she too like you to read romantic novels along Obectivist lines?

Edited September 5, 2009 by Xray

[anonrobt]

My fiancee recently suggested that I read romantic novels. She felt that I was lacking in the romance department and felt that Romance novels might be a good way for me to get a feel as to how to become more romantic in my approach to our relationship.

So, I thought I would tap the ladies on these board if they know of any romance novels worth checking out. My fiancee doesn't read too many of them since yours truly has gotten her to read Atlas Shrugged and The Fountainhead along with all of the F. Paul Wilson's books including his Repairman Jack novels. She has also read Noble Vision and is in the midst of reading some of Steve Flynn's novels too.

Monica and I both loved Atlas Shrugged and, taking her advice to heart, am in the midst of reading Andrea York's Crosspoints and will soon be ordering The Invisible Heart.

However, since Objectivist/freedom-oriented romance novels might be hard to come by, I was wondering if there are any romance novels, while not strictly Objectivist or libertarian, that have a great sense of life or are along Objectivist/libertarian lines. Where the characters are strong have high levels of integrity, are self reliant and are entrepreneurs or in business.

Any suggestions would be helpful. I find that fiction can be very helpful, if not better, than personal growth or self-help reading and can be great to lift one's spirits.

I would like to purchase and consume novels that reflect my values and philosophy.

My fiancee recently suggested that I read romantic novels. She felt that I was lacking in the romance department and felt that Romance novels might be a good way for me to get a feel as to how to become more romantic in my approach to our relationship.

Mike,

Did your fiancee elaborate on what her idea of "romantic" is? For this is a pretty global term (a fudge word, so to speak), where people can project a lot into.

However, since Objectivist/freedom-oriented romance novels might be hard to come by, I was wondering if there are any romance novels, while not strictly Objectivist or libertarian, that have a great sense of life or are along Objectivist/libertarian lines. Where the characters are strong have high levels of integrity, are self reliant and are entrepreneurs or in business.

Any suggestions would be helpful. I find that fiction can be very helpful, if not better, than personal growth or self-help reading and can be great to lift one's spirits.

I would like to purchase and consume novels that reflect my values and philosophy.

Does your fiancee share the same value sysem as you here, i. e. would she too like you to read romantic novels along Obectivist lines?

Well, many are out of print, but the books of L. Neil Smith are worth reading with great sense-of-life, high levels of integrity, self-reliant characters... and John Scalzi's are likewise... and then there's the Modesty Blaise books... and, tho not a book, for romance in a great sense, ever see the movie Don Juan DeMarco? - terrifically romantic movie...

Edited September 6, 2009 by anonrobt

[Xray]

Well, many are out of print, but the books of L. Neil Smith are worth reading with great sense-of-life, high levels of integrity, self-reliant characters... and John Scalzi's are likewise... and then there's the Modesty Blaise books... and, tho not a book, for romance in a great sense, ever see the movie Don Juan DeMarco? - terrifically romantic movie...

I haven't seem the film but took at lok at the IMDB site - sounds like a fascinating story, starring M. Brando and J. Depp in major roles - quite an interesting combination.

Edited September 12, 2009 by Xray

[Mike Renzulli]

All,

I apologized for the late response, but thanks for your suggestions. I will look into the books and movies you suggested. As to Monica sharing the same values as I do, she did initially, but I helped Monica grow intellectually by my giving her books to read, like Atlas Shrugged and F. Paul Wilson's Repairman Jack series while also attending conferences and meetings like those sponsored by The Goldwater Institute and FEE.

Anyway, thanks again and TTYL!